Pages:
Author

Topic: Criticisms? - page 7. (Read 11855 times)

legendary
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1001
June 22, 2012, 01:21:02 PM
What you need is a marker mechanism that does not create such a super "defence agency."

Do me a favor... explain, in detail, each step where we get from 100 defense agencies down to one superagency?

I'd like to see your logic.

We've already done this.  Each dispute that requires 1 side to win or lose will result in 1 defence agency going out of business.  There can never be a market for a "defence agency" that allows someone else to win.

No matter how many you start with, you end up with 1.
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
June 22, 2012, 12:26:19 PM
What you need is a marker mechanism that does not create such a super "defence agency."

Do me a favor... explain, in detail, each step where we get from 100 defense agencies down to one superagency?

I'd like to see your logic.
legendary
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1001
June 22, 2012, 12:22:22 PM
But its a market in violence. So conflict of interest will be normal since anyone who objects receives the violence.  They are the biggest and the best - what you gonna do?  Tell your friends that they are not nice people?

If a verbal objection receives violence, that's a NAP violation, and a fairly clear attempt at establishing a state. Even the biggest and the best can be taken down by enough of the little guys.

So, we have a system where the "little guys" are safe with private property rights.  You are proposing replacing it with a system where the equivalent of the US army is the "defence agency" and the "little guys" have to fight it.  A lot of heroic deaths will ensue.

Bu what would the point be?  The market you describe means that even if they win, a new super agency will emerge.  There can never be a market in courts or defence agencies that can't enforce their owners and clients commands can there?  So you will always end up with 1.  The "little guys" will have died in vain.

What you need is a marker mechanism that does not create such a super "defence agency."
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
June 22, 2012, 12:15:35 PM
But its a market in violence. So conflict of interest will be normal since anyone who objects receives the violence.  They are the biggest and the best - what you gonna do?  Tell your friends that they are not nice people?

If a verbal objection receives violence, that's a NAP violation, and a fairly clear attempt at establishing a state. Even the biggest and the best can be taken down by enough of the little guys.
legendary
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1001
June 22, 2012, 12:10:51 PM
What you might do is look up the concept of separation of powers; having executive, judicial and legislative powers all in 1 "defence agency" is guaranteed to be a disaster. 

Uh... yeah, duh.

That's why a defense agency is a defense agency, and a arbitration firm is an arbitration firm. I'm still not sure where you picked up the idea that they were the same thing.

Because the most efficient way to do it will be for same people to own the defence agency and to own the courts.  That way, they can charge for a guaranteed service.  Vertical integration is the technical term. 

Conflict of interest is the term you're looking for.

But its a market in violence. So conflict of interest will be normal since anyone who objects receives the violence.  They are the biggest and the best - what you gonna do?  Tell your friends that they are not nice people?
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
June 22, 2012, 12:07:29 PM
What you might do is look up the concept of separation of powers; having executive, judicial and legislative powers all in 1 "defence agency" is guaranteed to be a disaster. 

Uh... yeah, duh.

That's why a defense agency is a defense agency, and a arbitration firm is an arbitration firm. I'm still not sure where you picked up the idea that they were the same thing.

Because the most efficient way to do it will be for same people to own the defence agency and to own the courts.  That way, they can charge for a guaranteed service.  Vertical integration is the technical term. 

Conflict of interest is the term you're looking for.
legendary
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1001
June 22, 2012, 12:05:18 PM
What you might do is look up the concept of separation of powers; having executive, judicial and legislative powers all in 1 "defence agency" is guaranteed to be a disaster. 

Uh... yeah, duh.

That's why a defense agency is a defense agency, and a arbitration firm is an arbitration firm. I'm still not sure where you picked up the idea that they were the same thing.

Because the most efficient way to do it will be for same people to own the defence agency and to own the courts.  That way, they can charge for a guaranteed service.  Vertical integration is the technical term. 
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
June 22, 2012, 11:56:06 AM
What you might do is look up the concept of separation of powers; having executive, judicial and legislative powers all in 1 "defence agency" is guaranteed to be a disaster. 

Uh... yeah, duh.

That's why a defense agency is a defense agency, and a arbitration firm is an arbitration firm. I'm still not sure where you picked up the idea that they were the same thing.
legendary
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1001
June 22, 2012, 08:58:54 AM
Democracy is not about a simple majority getting all it wants.  There are always things like property rights.  Your system has no such rights since the person who has most fire-power has an absolute law making power.

You know what? You're right. Recognizing each person's self-ownership and rejecting government violence will only lead to chaos. It's much better to give all the guns to one monopoly organization and let all the decisions be made by popular vote. If a lot of people agree about something, it's probably right anyway.

Leaving the control of violence in one "defence agency" is what you are advocating with your "normalisation" of law in "market courts".

What you might do is look up the concept of separation of powers; having executive, judicial and legislative powers all in 1 "defence agency" is guaranteed to be a disaster.  
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
June 22, 2012, 03:11:10 AM
Democracy is not about a simple majority getting all it wants.  There are always things like property rights.  Your system has no such rights since the person who has most fire-power has an absolute law making power.

You know what? You're right. Recognizing each person's self-ownership and rejecting government violence will only lead to chaos. It's much better to give all the guns to one monopoly organization and let all the decisions be made by popular vote. If a lot of people agree about something, it's probably right anyway.
legendary
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1001
June 22, 2012, 02:25:58 AM
Democratic government is most certainly not based on who has most guns.

Bullshit. 50%, plus one, of the people tell me it's illegal to drink caffeine, and suddenly I can't drink caffeine. If I try to do so anyway, they arrest me, and if I resist hard enough, they shoot me. How is that not about who has the most guns?

Inheritance is not an edge case and your approach that people who are refused arbitration have no recourse is shocking.  How can you even begin to advocate such an unjust system?  I'd be ashamed.

I never said they had no recourse, that you don't like their recourse is your problem.

Democracy is not about a simple majority getting all it wants.  There are always things like property rights.  Your system has no such rights since the person who has most fire-power has an absolute law making power.

You say that its my problem if I don't think the siblings recourse is fair.   You are proposing to replace the existing fair with your system.  If your system is not fair, it will never get off the ground. 

One problem you have is that when the facts or consequences of an argument don't suit you, you try to ignore them.  As a suggestion, that's the point at which you take a step back and re-consider how you are going about things.  There is more than one way to skin a cat; your idea that people should rely on public opinion to get their property rights is not a good one.  Come back with a better enforcement method and the rest of your argument will at least have a foundation.
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
June 21, 2012, 09:25:03 PM
So what if a self-sufficient group decides that is harmless? They wouldn't have to care about hurting reputations outside the group by refusing to arbitrate. If another group has a huge problem with this, how is violence averted? Assume both groups believe in the NAP but disagree about the facts.

Well, if you can find a truly self-sufficient group, let me know. I don't know of anyone who can provide everything for themselves. But, let's assume they're completely self-sufficient. Both groups agree that to aggress on another is wrong. But one group is being aggressed on by the other. That , if it is actually harmful, and can be proven to be harmful, can be shown as such to the offending group. If they still refuse arbitration, then violence may not be avoidable, since that constitutes an active assault, albeit one group on another, through pollution.
hero member
Activity: 950
Merit: 1001
June 21, 2012, 08:55:50 PM
True, but even the NAP can be interpreted differently between libertarians, and I would assume Ancaps too. Apologies if this sparks a huge tangent, but carbon pollution might be a good example - depending on your scientific ability, carbon emissions are anywhere between unimportant and an existential risk. Assuming the Ancap society is just as divided as this forum is, how would/should interpretation conflicts be resolved?

Arbitration. Interpretation conflicts, damages, anything except an active assault can be resolved in Arbitration or mediation.
So what if a self-sufficient group decides that is harmless? They wouldn't have to care about hurting reputations outside the group by refusing to arbitrate. If another group has a huge problem with this, how is violence averted? Assume both groups believe in the NAP but disagree about the facts.
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
June 21, 2012, 07:15:07 PM
Again, says who? How is anything legally binding in a world with no laws or rulers?

Please read the rest of the thread, where I explain how law is developed and enforced without government.

True, but even the NAP can be interpreted differently between libertarians, and I would assume Ancaps too. Apologies if this sparks a huge tangent, but carbon pollution might be a good example - depending on your scientific ability, carbon emissions are anywhere between unimportant and an existential risk. Assuming the Ancap society is just as divided as this forum is, how would/should interpretation conflicts be resolved?

Arbitration. Interpretation conflicts, damages, anything except an active assault can be resolved in Arbitration or mediation.
sr. member
Activity: 336
Merit: 250
June 21, 2012, 07:00:56 PM
Siblings who have been excluded don't get to say whether or not a parent dies intestate.  But on your logic, a will won't matter as anyone can take possession and refuse arbitration.

A will is a legally binding contract. If you have taken possession, in violation of the will, and are refusing arbitration, you're harming the other siblings. Now they're justified in kicking him off by force.

If the market accepts the fact that he is claiming primogeniture after his father died intestate, and continues to provide him services, then that is the market choice for dealing with a parent who dies intestate: primogeniture. If you do not like that, make sure you don't die intestate.

Critics love making edge cases, and saying "see, your system is based on who has the most guns", while ignoring the fact that even at the best of times, government is based on who has the most guns. I don't pretend it would be perfect, but the majority of cases will be settled peaceably, between the two parties involved. In a government system, the majority forces the minority in every decision.

Again, says who? How is anything legally binding in a world with no laws or rulers?
hero member
Activity: 950
Merit: 1001
June 21, 2012, 06:55:44 PM
I feel like I just walked into a room where people are fighting and got a chair broken over my head.

Heh... Which is why I waited.

"The Ancaps seem to be proposing we lower that arbitrary barrier in #2 to include all people, and assuming that people who waste their money on irrational rules will become poorer and lose influence."

This isn't 100%. Understand that the underlying principle of AnCap is the Non-Aggression Principle: No person has the right to initiate force or fraud on another person. Outside of that, anything goes. You can make your own rules, but if you try to force other people to follow them, that will be interpreted as an attack on the society, and an attempt to create a new government. It will not end well for you.

True, but even the NAP can be interpreted differently between libertarians, and I would assume Ancaps too. Apologies if this sparks a huge tangent, but carbon pollution might be a good example - depending on your scientific ability, carbon emissions are anywhere between unimportant and an existential risk. Assuming the Ancap society is just as divided as this forum is, how would/should interpretation conflicts be resolved?

I guess what I'm trying to say is I somewhat agree with FirstAscent in that the rules enforced seem subjective, even if it's all NAP. I've always just considered it a guideline.
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
June 21, 2012, 06:16:25 PM
I feel like I just walked into a room where people are fighting and got a chair broken over my head.

Heh... Which is why I waited.

"The Ancaps seem to be proposing we lower that arbitrary barrier in #2 to include all people, and assuming that people who waste their money on irrational rules will become poorer and lose influence."

This isn't 100%. Understand that the underlying principle of AnCap is the Non-Aggression Principle: No person has the right to initiate force or fraud on another person. Outside of that, anything goes. You can make your own rules, but if you try to force other people to follow them, that will be interpreted as an attack on the society, and an attempt to create a new government. It will not end well for you.
hero member
Activity: 950
Merit: 1001
June 21, 2012, 05:59:05 PM
The reality of your joke of a system is this:

1. Everyone follows their own made up rules.
2. Those who can afford it, arbitrarily, and at their own whims, enforce their own made up rules with money and guns.

That sounds exactly like a republic, except item #1 would be "someone else's made up rules". The Ancaps seem to be proposing we lower that arbitrary barrier in #2 to include all people, and assuming that people who waste their money on irrational rules will become poorer and lose influence. Correct?

Incorrect.

If you change #1, then we're no longer discussing what I said, are we?

As for #2, your sentence regarding it is manipulative and presumptuous.

I guess not? It is no longer discussing Ancap, it is discussing the republic. I'm applying the same simplistic description to both systems, since analyzing them any way other than by comparison is pointless.

Indeed it is presumptive, that's why I asked for an Ancap to confirm that presumption. I'm sorry if that came across as a question directed at you, as I am very familiar with your thoughts on the topic.

I feel like I just walked into a room where people are fighting and got a chair broken over my head.
hero member
Activity: 812
Merit: 1000
June 21, 2012, 05:45:14 PM
Democratic government is most certainly not based on who has most guns.

Bullshit. 50%, plus one, of the people tell me it's illegal to drink caffeine, and suddenly I can't drink caffeine. If I try to do so anyway, they arrest me, and if I resist hard enough, they shoot me. How is that not about who has the most guns?

Then I suggest your time would be better spent discussing an ideology which favors leniency with regard to substance intake, instead of the silliness you do spend your time advocating.
hero member
Activity: 812
Merit: 1000
June 21, 2012, 05:42:25 PM
The reality of your joke of a system is this:

1. Everyone follows their own made up rules.
2. Those who can afford it, arbitrarily, and at their own whims, enforce their own made up rules with money and guns.

That sounds exactly like a republic, except item #1 would be "someone else's made up rules". The Ancaps seem to be proposing we lower that arbitrary barrier in #2 to include all people, and assuming that people who waste their money on irrational rules will become poorer and lose influence. Correct?

Incorrect.

If you change #1, then we're no longer discussing what I said, are we?

As for #2, your sentence regarding it is manipulative and presumptuous.
Pages:
Jump to: