⚖️ Crypto Gambling Foundation ⚖️ - Fair Gambling For All - page 25.

RGBKey

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rgbkey.github.io/pgp.txt

Quote from: RHavar on December 04, 2017, 06:20:35 AM

Quote from: Aengus on December 03, 2017, 10:41:43 PM

https://forum.cryptogambling.org/topic/41-covering-scams-under-the-cgf-brand/

This is a really cool idea! However, the issue with most provably fair systems -- is that you can only verify your own bets but not someone elses. A casino can just outright lie and there's no way for an independent party to know. Embarrassed

So one possible idea, would be that the Crypto Gambling Foundation runs an "seed server" for each casino. Basically like the provably fair of bustadice.com ( https://gist.github.com/RHavar/285c295f7906e03369cd66580a1b5f45 ) which allows an independent party to verify the games. So it could be run by the Crypto Gambling Foundation.

But even then, there can still ambiguities. Like person says "I didn't request that withdrawal" and the casino is like "yeah you did".

The only way I can see to avoid that too, is just pure on-chain gambling games. (Like when I made pevpot: It was provably fair, non-repudiatable and immune to miners tampering. However, like most on-chain games it kind of sucked and people didn't actually like playing it).

Huh

Maybe somebody could be the first to leverage the just-released testnet of RSK to create Bitcoin smart contract gambling (https://www.rsk.co/)

RHavar

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Quote from: Aengus on December 03, 2017, 10:41:43 PM

https://forum.cryptogambling.org/topic/41-covering-scams-under-the-cgf-brand/

This is a really cool idea! However, the issue with most provably fair systems -- is that you can only verify your own bets but not someone elses. A casino can just outright lie and there's no way for an independent party to know. Embarrassed

So one possible idea, would be that the Crypto Gambling Foundation runs an "seed server" for each casino. Basically like the provably fair of bustadice.com ( https://gist.github.com/RHavar/285c295f7906e03369cd66580a1b5f45 ) which allows an independent party to verify the games. So it could be run by the Crypto Gambling Foundation.

But even then, there can still ambiguities. Like person says "I didn't request that withdrawal" and the casino is like "yeah you did".

The only way I can see to avoid that too, is just pure on-chain gambling games. (Like when I made pevpot: It was provably fair, non-repudiatable and immune to miners tampering. However, like most on-chain games it kind of sucked and people didn't actually like playing it).

Huh

Aengus

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Edward Miroslav

https://forum.cryptogambling.org/topic/41-covering-scams-under-the-cgf-brand/

Nelka4

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Quote from: Aengus on November 16, 2017, 08:46:38 PM

Slowly putting together a draft directory for all operators in the Bitcoin scene. These are operators who are not verified. With that said it does not mean they are not trusted. We will work on making this directory more comprehensive and standardized.

https://forum.cryptogambling.org/forum/55-non-verified-operators-feedback-complaints-discussion/

Great to see. Would be awesome to see the forum more populated and this used more like a complaint & open forum for people to vent issues.

Aengus

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Edward Miroslav

Slowly putting together a draft directory for all operators in the Bitcoin scene. These are operators who are not verified. With that said it does not mean they are not trusted. We will work on making this directory more comprehensive and standardized.

https://forum.cryptogambling.org/forum/55-non-verified-operators-feedback-complaints-discussion/

Aengus

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Edward Miroslav

https://forum.cryptogambling.org/forum/54-verified-operators-feedback-complaints-discussion/

All operators have a thread here for you to give feedback if you please.

Aengus

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Edward Miroslav

Quote from: game-protect on November 02, 2017, 06:19:40 PM

Quote from: Nelka4 on November 01, 2017, 05:28:15 PM

Quote from: game-protect on November 01, 2017, 04:17:20 PM

Quote from: adaseb on October 31, 2017, 01:38:16 PM

Besides the "fair" provably fair verification process.

I think another important factor should be a site willing to provide how much capital it has.

There are many small sites that allow huge bets but have very little capital on their cold storage. And either some whale or some bad streak can easily cause the site to become insolvent.

Everyone has his religion! Some claim provably fair is important, others claim that the site must provide how much capital it has and based on my experience I claim that there need to be a fund where money goes in to enforce claims of victims. In some cases there is nothing you can do, but in most cases victims could initiate legal action, but they never heard the word court and or are not willing to spend a small percentage!

Why bother with court cases etc. when a site can be fully transparent with its dealings/bets & in return risk its reputation without it having to be proven in court?

The court cases are not to proof that it was not provably fair. The court cases are to enforce account balances or claims, as there are gambling operators that simply embezzle the hole balances of all customers at one point or selectively close accounts with false accusations.

The gambling sites who scam do not care about their reputation and they find enough victims that are not aware about their scam tactics!

I understand this is what we're trying to avoid. We're discussing taking any losses players may have from CGF approved websites and refunding them (Investment sites not included)

game-protect

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Quote from: Nelka4 on November 01, 2017, 05:28:15 PM

Quote from: game-protect on November 01, 2017, 04:17:20 PM

Quote from: adaseb on October 31, 2017, 01:38:16 PM

Besides the "fair" provably fair verification process.

I think another important factor should be a site willing to provide how much capital it has.

There are many small sites that allow huge bets but have very little capital on their cold storage. And either some whale or some bad streak can easily cause the site to become insolvent.

Everyone has his religion! Some claim provably fair is important, others claim that the site must provide how much capital it has and based on my experience I claim that there need to be a fund where money goes in to enforce claims of victims. In some cases there is nothing you can do, but in most cases victims could initiate legal action, but they never heard the word court and or are not willing to spend a small percentage!

Why bother with court cases etc. when a site can be fully transparent with its dealings/bets & in return risk its reputation without it having to be proven in court?

The court cases are not to proof that it was not provably fair. The court cases are to enforce account balances or claims, as there are gambling operators that simply embezzle the hole balances of all customers at one point or selectively close accounts with false accusations.

The gambling sites who scam do not care about their reputation and they find enough victims that are not aware about their scam tactics!

adaseb

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Quote from: veleten on November 01, 2017, 08:32:59 PM

Quote from: adaseb on October 26, 2017, 04:15:54 PM

Quote from: spngebob on October 25, 2017, 04:21:18 PM

Stunna I want to ask you something.

Real provably fair system is - client seed + server seed + nonce.
Client seed and server seed should remain the same while nonce change from 1 to n.

If you don't change client seed, nonce is changing from 1 - n and server seed is changing on every bet is that really provably fair system?
House could simple catch client seed, calculate nonce and give you bad outcomes.
And what is the point of nonce if server seed change on every bet?

My second(third?) question - without nonce, if client seed is unchanged, and server seed is changing on every bet, casino could see clients seed and give to player bad seeds.
How one can prove house didn't cheat?

Is that possible?(4th question)

This was discussed many many times in the past with various sites.

Basically its technically possible some gambling site can cheat you ONLY if you NEVER change your bet habit and NEVER change your client seed.

The site can have some pregenerated keys and if they detect you are someone who only martingales AND never changes the win direction, then they can give you some bad keys that will generate 10-20 losses in a row to clean you out.

However I am pretty sure Primedice never does this. And its also risky for the casino because what if you change from being a predictable gambler to a non-predictable gambler.

Someone can basically, martingale with 100 Sats bets for like 10000 Rolls, and then all of a sudden they can switch their bet habits and trick the site.

well if the site's seed is not changing it is technically impossible to cheat
unless there is some fundamental flaw in the provably fair system or cryptography
when the site is changing the seed every roll (999dice,fortunejack,bitvest and some other sites) it is possible
the server could track the habbit or patterns of a player on the fly and send a sequence of losing events
but the next roll is always predetermined so you are free to try and change the pattern if you suspect foul play
not that I think any of the sites are doing this,but this is possible in this case,yes
usually you could suspect this if one of the sites beats the math time and time again,i.e. if the chances for you to roll 14 reds on a 1.5x multiplier is one in 200.000 rolls
and you are getting them consistently in under 5.000 rolls or so,could be bad luck or could be foul play

I agree. If the provably system is working correctly then its not possible to cheat. Since you would need a quantum computer and even if you had one you might as well might some Bitcoins instead.

But there are bugs sometimes, I remember there was an ETH dice site that had a bug and its unhashed seed was leaked. Luckily the admin caught it because the gambler apparently had way too many wins in a row and it didn't look like a coincidence.

Like you said, its possible they can do this but its very difficult to predict gambling behaviour and the gambler might discover they are being targetted and just do the opposite and win instead.

digaran

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🖤😏

Foundation? how can I have a girl jumping foundation, I beg of you to help me have it, first lol. if casinos use provably fair then people will abuse it, if they don't use provably fair then people would never gamble. how do you say something is provably fair? it's not provable if it's not fair.

veleten

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Quote from: adaseb on October 26, 2017, 04:15:54 PM

Quote from: spngebob on October 25, 2017, 04:21:18 PM

Stunna I want to ask you something.

Real provably fair system is - client seed + server seed + nonce.
Client seed and server seed should remain the same while nonce change from 1 to n.

If you don't change client seed, nonce is changing from 1 - n and server seed is changing on every bet is that really provably fair system?
House could simple catch client seed, calculate nonce and give you bad outcomes.
And what is the point of nonce if server seed change on every bet?

My second(third?) question - without nonce, if client seed is unchanged, and server seed is changing on every bet, casino could see clients seed and give to player bad seeds.
How one can prove house didn't cheat?

Is that possible?(4th question)

This was discussed many many times in the past with various sites.

Basically its technically possible some gambling site can cheat you ONLY if you NEVER change your bet habit and NEVER change your client seed.

The site can have some pregenerated keys and if they detect you are someone who only martingales AND never changes the win direction, then they can give you some bad keys that will generate 10-20 losses in a row to clean you out.

However I am pretty sure Primedice never does this. And its also risky for the casino because what if you change from being a predictable gambler to a non-predictable gambler.

Someone can basically, martingale with 100 Sats bets for like 10000 Rolls, and then all of a sudden they can switch their bet habits and trick the site.

well if the site's seed is not changing it is technically impossible to cheat
unless there is some fundamental flaw in the provably fair system or cryptography
when the site is changing the seed every roll (999dice,fortunejack,bitvest and some other sites) it is possible
the server could track the habbit or patterns of a player on the fly and send a sequence of losing events
but the next roll is always predetermined so you are free to try and change the pattern if you suspect foul play
not that I think any of the sites are doing this,but this is possible in this case,yes
usually you could suspect this if one of the sites beats the math time and time again,i.e. if the chances for you to roll 14 reds on a 1.5x multiplier is one in 200.000 rolls
and you are getting them consistently in under 5.000 rolls or so,could be bad luck or could be foul play

coin2me

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Hello

I am interested in knowing the concept and who knows how to adopt in Coin2Me (www.coin2.me)!

Congratulations on the initiative and good luck!

Nelka4

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Activity: 269

Merit: 251

Quote from: game-protect on November 01, 2017, 04:17:20 PM

Quote from: adaseb on October 31, 2017, 01:38:16 PM

Besides the "fair" provably fair verification process.

I think another important factor should be a site willing to provide how much capital it has.

There are many small sites that allow huge bets but have very little capital on their cold storage. And either some whale or some bad streak can easily cause the site to become insolvent.

Everyone has his religion! Some claim provably fair is important, others claim that the site must provide how much capital it has and based on my experience I claim that there need to be a fund where money goes in to enforce claims of victims. In some cases there is nothing you can do, but in most cases victims could initiate legal action, but they never heard the word court and or are not willing to spend a small percentage!

Why bother with court cases etc. when a site can be fully transparent with its dealings/bets & in return risk its reputation without it having to be proven in court?

game-protect

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Activity: 1344

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Quote from: adaseb on October 31, 2017, 01:38:16 PM

Besides the "fair" provably fair verification process.

I think another important factor should be a site willing to provide how much capital it has.

There are many small sites that allow huge bets but have very little capital on their cold storage. And either some whale or some bad streak can easily cause the site to become insolvent.

Everyone has his religion! Some claim provably fair is important, others claim that the site must provide how much capital it has and based on my experience I claim that there need to be a fund where money goes in to enforce claims of victims. In some cases there is nothing you can do, but in most cases victims could initiate legal action, but they never heard the word court and or are not willing to spend a small percentage!

Aengus

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Edward Miroslav

Quote from: spngebob on October 26, 2017, 09:47:47 AM

Quote from: Aengus on October 25, 2017, 09:19:26 PM

The server seed doesn't change on every bet. This leaves the outcome determined by the client seed only. All bets can be verified when the hashed server seed is revealed.

There is a difference between how something should work and how something is working
I know one site where server seed is changing together with nonce.
I would like to see Stunna's answer on this, maybe he missed question, i'll send him message.

The server seed is produced by the server (Ie. the HOUSE), if the house knows your client seed, they obviously know what the next nonce is (it goes up incrementally) then they definitely can manipulate the outcome of your event through pushing a different server seed based on the above information.

Fairness is created through the house not knowing certain information. In your case, they know too much.

Aengus

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Edward Miroslav

Quote from: devans on October 31, 2017, 11:20:30 AM

Every casino that uses unfair practices or poorly implements provable fairness damages the entire industry. Industry leaders coming together like this to self-police and encourage best practices could be very beneficial for all crypto casinos as a whole as well as their players.

I look forward to being part of this initiative with bustadice and will be in touch with Aengus to discuss how I can help out.

Great to hear you guys are on board, your website is extremely impressive and I love what you've done in innovate dice (It's been a very long time since someone has done such a thing!). You can find me on Telegram @EdMiroslav.

adaseb

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Besides the "fair" provably fair verification process.

I think another important factor should be a site willing to provide how much capital it has.

There are many small sites that allow huge bets but have very little capital on their cold storage. And either some whale or some bad streak can easily cause the site to become insolvent.

casinobitco

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MonsterByte.io (the parent company to many crypto gaming provably fair platforms) requested more details; haven't heard back yet.

devans

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Every casino that uses unfair practices or poorly implements provable fairness damages the entire industry. Industry leaders coming together like this to self-police and encourage best practices could be very beneficial for all crypto casinos as a whole as well as their players.

I look forward to being part of this initiative with bustadice and will be in touch with Aengus to discuss how I can help out.

Aengus

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Edward Miroslav

Looking to hopefully have this stickied soon!

Topic: ⚖️ Crypto Gambling Foundation ⚖️ - Fair Gambling For All - page 25. (Read 25361 times)