Topic: CryptoKingdom Uncensored - page 26. (Read 69665 times)

For the moment no donations are being taken. If you are interested in contributing, a written pledge is enough until all the details are ironed out with the proper payment options.

"I am willing to invest 50XMR in the project." would result in adding +50XMR on paper to the initiative fund, and once the minimum amount is reached, the pledging parties will be contacted to collect the contribution.

My idea right now is to use the m3 depository and have the funds be transferred ingame to an account held not by me, or even held by Gringotts itself to be used for marketmaking, like how Kevorkian put his supply to use, and then withdrawn for a specific purpose that anyone can see: "Withdrawing 7.5XMR to pay 1 month salary for employee X" for example.

I don't want to hold the money if I don't have to, because trusting me to use it properly is enough and when the numbers get high enough, I don't want to paint a target on my back or awaken some unexpected temptations or whatnot. I'd rather let the safekeeping to the professionals.

Other options will likely exist. For example, iluvbitcoins said he'd pledge $1000 worth of Paypal funds. That works, because people will likely accept Paypal for whatever. So what will happen is when the need arises that allows for paying with Paypal, I will ask iluvbitcoins to uses those funds for that particular need. If the expense is something practical, like a piece of software or a service, you could even deduct it as your own business expense if you're into that.

I don't think centralization for this is necessary in these early stages, and perhaps not at all. Let's just figure out if we can raise the funds and then worry about how to actually get and use them.

I don't currently have the time to read everything in detail since I have to leave tommorow for 3 exams on Friday  

I skimmed through the replies though!

My stands are :

I'm against any sort of dilution of CKM

The game needs a massive redesign, the GUI is terrible and won't keep many players
Designers and developers will make this game worth playing
It's an investment worth having

I'm okay with giving something to Speed for his efforts (ingame items too)
It has to be understood we're giving our money with no gains except the game doing well too, so the pay won't be much

CKO is a secondary issue, primary issues are GUI and CKM
Status quo is the worst thing that can happen to us

With the benefit of hindsight that would have been the way to start the game back in 2014, but it probably took Steem to show the wisdom of why. Yes, if risto had launched a cryptonote token with plenty of warning, and that became the game currency of CK then probably no need to worry about these issues today. Problem is rebooting CK like that today doesn't help the bagholders, but it makes sense!

I agree, % dilution should be the smallest amount needed to raise enough funds to achieve the starting amount of dev funding, then the game should become self sustaining from in-game mechanisms like taxes and running successful enterprises. I honestly don't know what that figure would be, but 10% of a CK with a healthy marketcap might be enough, whereas 50% of a struggling CK might be the same $ amount. That's why it's probably best if we all support Speed's initial reboot plan.

You still need a way to implement work, monitor that the work was done and be able to seize tokens if the work was not met. Can't imagine anyone wants to deal with the hassle on either side of the equation. NOW, if you implemented it as a backend mining of cryptonote token....that would be a more efficient proof of work, but an untradeable item as trading doesn't constitute work from the SEC's perspective.

As for diluting M to pay for development. I don't want my value cut in half, and I'm sure those who are owed by risto don't want the ability to pay them back cut in half. Some smaller amount like 5-10% might be passable, but not half. And certainly not without a plan for where the funds go and who is managing them--right now, smooth, saddam and mooo are about the only ones I'd trust with that job.

I think all three conditions must be met, but I'm not an expert.

edit: https://www.coindesk.com/every-token-snowflake-secs-ico-guidance-isnt-enough/

+1
I don't want the CKO traded on any exchanges either, just OTC deals between players in private. The logic of creating CKO is to keep CKM as a pure 'game currency' without any interest to securities regulators, BUT still have governance structures that might include voting.

I would be surprised if players didn't devise ways to add 'benefits' to owning CKO so they had value, but it might be in non-monetary ways, and/or done unofficially by players themselves, not 'The Game' itself.

e.g. discounts based on CKO ownership, 'in-game sale of items, and you get your CKO % ownership as a discount'. If that became a non-compulsory game tradition, like a 'members discount', then CKO would have value, but not exactly be paying dividends like a security.

People are clever, CKO could have many uses in-game that gave it value without making it a security

I hope you're right, but a pure governance token (no monetary benefit)  seems like a non-exchange asset. And this would be fine by me.

The point of the CKO for me in mainly governance, a structure to manage CK and make decisions. Any other 'benefits' would be nice if they can stay within the law, but not necessary for me. I've just learnt from my time in crypto that good projects often get bogged down in personality based in-fighting, and without procedures to resolve different opinions on important issues, a good investment can turn into a nightmare pretty quickly. I've seen it many times, and honestly, the best governance model I've seen in crypto so far is "benevolent dictator", and when it works everything goes well, but it's not decentralised, and not sustainable.

Bitcoin is a leaderless clusterfuck, but it's sustainable now, and not dependent on anyone, and that's probably why we all love it.

SuperNET and NXT are well oiled machines by comparison, but 100% dependent on benevolent dictators keeping their shit together and working 12-14 hour days without pay. If jl777 or Jean-Luc ever had a turn, or went under a bus they would implode within 24 hours, not because of tech concerns, but because nobody would be in charge anymore, and everything would grind to a halt in conflict. Other than bitcoin all the top crypto projects are dictatorships mostly, which is cool, but I'm actually looking for something more, I'm a decentralized idealist still.

Players will buy CKM to play the game, like a casino visitor buys chips when they enter, so they don't need a payout to buy them, just a good game that's well managed with healthy decision making processes.

TBH I doubt there's a way to attract investors without some sort of payout. And I'm not paying a lawyer to wrangle with the SEC over what quantifies as money.

I think Speed's plan included an item for 'legal', and I would not be comfortable doing anything that would attract unwanted attention also. If the CKO was issued to players without any 'sale' then I think it would be ok, but always better to get that confirmed by an expert.




edit: also, CKO may not pay monetary dividends, so there might not be any profits

I put in 12-14 k in xmr, so don't bitch that I took out 4k--the small amounts before that were me paying myself out of what I've invested -- you can fuck off with trying to guilt me for taking out 1/3 of my investment when it made sense to diversify.

Your timing with the crowd fund is moronic as some (if you're paying GREAT!) will see that and wait until they can get something in return.
 You misread the quoted material as I was making that point, NOT making a statement about your intentions.

Also, have a crowd fund plan, BEFORE you initiate the proposal.


As for the ownership token, see above.

This is still the "CK Millions" as outlined earlier for M/CKM, just with additional clarity and a 2:1 dilution (50%) versus the 60% one that doesn't roll off the tongue as easily.

And no where did I say the tokenization has to happen NOW™. Speed's initiative, along with other items, should happen before a crowdsale or more active exchange seeking activities.

Also, just stop it with this "paid on top" business. I am willing to donate to Speed's initiative after not getting ANY of my initial CK XMR investment back, not to mention the missed depo payments.

Now, I'm glad you were able to cash out 5k XMR from CK (so almost $650k) and understand that you had put more XMR than that into the game, so it is still a net XMR loss for you, but it's getting old what you keep insinuating when, from a reasonable perspective, you were one of the largest game raiders.

Without a lone whale like Zech to raid as you did, the game would have to be worth tens of millions with strong volume just for me to get out what I am owed from depo payments, not to mention my initial XMR investment, without absolutely crushing the market. Now compound it by all the other players suffering from a net loss who may want to start seeking even some slight recovery and you should start to see how your repeated proclamations seem, at the very least, a little foolish. Really, I don't see how donating to Speed as well as trying to provide some input on a potential crowdfund where I'm not getting a damn bit of the money is me getting "paid on top."

Finally, in regards to a governance asset, that has been brought up by the forum and seems to be appealing to those who believe in a separation of ownership and currency units. Also, it does seem more compelling after hearing from boomboom in regards to how NXT handled a similar problem.

I don't want to be in any leadership position when the ownership token is implemented. So I'm more than happy to wait. Like it or not, there is a Howey Test and I don't want to be involved in an unregistered security.

As someone who's been wanting to buy into CK for while now, we need a roadmap that links all three,

- Speed's initiative
- Governance/ownership asset CKO
- ICO for 50% of currency CKM

Speed's initiative will start the process of transforming CK into something closer to what most of us want it to be, and while we could wait until AFTER the ICO raised funds before starting, that would seem to rule out taking a snapshot of existing M for future CKO before the ICO, a real bad look indeed, "the CK bagholders gave themselves 100% of the CKO that might earn dividends one day, and then start an ICO to get new money to actually pay to repair and improve the game ... right, gtfo"

The way to justify a CKO snapshot BEFORE the ICO that locks out ICO investors is to start paying for the recovery process NOW. A possible way to do this is by taxing existing M at some rate, then selling off that M in large OTC deals to those willing to put some skin in the game now, before the ICO, and before Speed's initiative has started, when the risk is highest.

Once the recovery effort is under way (i.e. Speed is funded and working on his plan) selling the ICO to new players will be easier, BUT not many will be willing to buy M NOW, before there's any real progress to speak of, so any who do will be taking a large risk, and they should therefore get a share of CKO.

Speaking for myself, I want to take a large position in CK now when the risk/reward is high, I don't want to wait until the ICO, especially if I miss out on dividend paying CKO, and Speed's initiative gets results and the ICO is oversubscribed.

Those who want the CKO should pay for the early recovery efforts, and a fair method would be an M tax that raised enough to get 20K USD for Speed from some large OTC sales. That would link all three above in a plausible roadmap, later moving onto the 4th outcome of tokenization.

How do we donate to the project? There's no "Phoenix Initiative" in game.

How about we don't change a thing when it comes to coin supply (Town doesn't want any part of it ATM as it seems to be adding confusion to what should be a simple exercise) and leave the exchange asset at ck millions as the bounty creator and bounty receiver want it.

I'm trying to think of what kind of organization issues a fund raising campaign without any benefits other than the game doing well, WHILE AT THE SAME TIME another player raises the possibility of crowd funding with a payout with game currency?

"I was all ready to give 50 xmr to Speed's initiative, but now I want to give to this crowd funding and get paid on top."  
 

Also, any talk of a governance asset  should cease until we get an actual governance plan.

Sounds like an awesome plan! Well done! I'd be interested in participating on the funding side

So for the more general thread, while I know the tokenization won't be an overnight thing, just wanted to continue the discussion.

boomboom brought up a good point regarding the 2:1 concept, so perhaps instead of a 60% dilution, we just go with a 50% dilution for ease of user understanding. "Town," or whatever game management entities exist/are created, can still share the 10% as before. The crowdfund will be for the remaining 40% instead of the 50% under the earlier plan.

In terms of issuance, if we are fine with the 6 digits past the decimal (where 1 blockchain M/CKM = 1 mil in-game M/CKM, so there is a 1:1 relationship between the game currency unit and blockchain unit, even at the decimal level) we go for 10 mil blockchain tokens (10,000,000.000000). The way to do this would be to first give everyone an M "dividend" to get us to 5 trillion issuance, then we create another 5 trillion (which is 5 mil blockchain tokens) that are used for the crowdfund and given to the game management entities.

For the CKO "ownership" token, we take the snapshot for issuance to current M holders BEFORE the CKM dilution happens. There will be no dilution on this token. In terms of issuance, I would say we target 1 mil blockchain tokens (1,000,000.000000), so there would be a reverse split. This would allow for differentiation numerically between CKM and CKO. Additionally, the ownership token in my mind should be scarce and have a lower velocity, which would be facilitated with the smaller supply.

I'm interested in hearing any thoughts/suggestions on this plan. I just want to make sure the token item is clear for when it is eventually created and locked and when exchanges are sought after.