Topic: CryptoKingdom Uncensored - page 29. (Read 69660 times)

I agree on several parts of this. For one, while I think it could make sense to offer CKO as a free kicker to CKM purchases during the ICO, if the ICO managers are not willing to do this, then it certainly makes sense to not dilute the CKO portion. On this, we could consider not offering Town the free 10% and instead just give all current owners of the 4 tril M equal amounts of CKO. Though I would consider going from 4 tril M to 10 tril M before this, or more, just to have it match whatever the CKM # issuance is.

To illustrate: so looking at the Zech account, it currently owns 21.5% of M. Whatever the CKO issuance (be it 4 tril, 10 tril, or something else), it will still own 21.5% of CKO.

However, for CKM, that is where we will do the dilution of 6 tril M, with 1 tril going to Town and 5 tril being used for the ICO. This would mean that for the Zech account, it would go from 21.5% ownership of M to 8.6% ownership of CKM. Depending on discussions, we can have a final outstanding issuance of CKM that may be above 10 tril, but the % ownership decrease that I've outlined (60%) will still be the same.

Also, of course, when I use the term trillions, that is equivalent to 1,000,000.000,000 or 1 mil "full" blockchain currency units.

On the topic of Zech's return, I understand what you are saying and I pretty much agree. As stated, Zech lost like, what, 60k XMR in the game alone? And, oddly enough, his ZechsDick character had more market making activity than the game had in a long time. Now we have VEG produced every year with zero demand.

I have always been of the opinion to return Zech's accounts to him in some fashion, especially when there are no longer any gateways to turn more than $100 of those game assets into crypto tokens like XMR. I think we can all agree that the game is in an awful current state with too many nonsensical items. Perhaps what Zech was trying to do with CK:Universe, where we just go way back in time and the game emerges is the way to go and he could help with that.

If that can't be done, just have Town take over the accounts. They've already gone most of the way. What's the issue with the last step?

However, if the middle ground is having his accounts managed for the benefit of the game and diluting current players and that is what people are okay with, fine.


I am 100% for anyone other than PJ working on this. Even if PJ was paid well (as he was in the past) I don't see him getting his act together.

OK, those actually doing the admin work should have the bigger influence on these matters anyway, I understand your frustration.

I've restructured my own CK affairs in such a way that I can sit back and watch what happens now, I've achieved what I set out to do with Gringotts & Phoenix Trust over the last couple of months, & Unicorn Corp. will continue with Roopatra at the helm, and all my other possessions are in a FOC, so my own CK affairs are simple to manage from here.

Good luck everyone, I hope the Game continues improving


“Are you in earnest? Seize this very minute:
What you can do, or dream you can, begin it;
Boldness has genius, power, and magic in it.
Only engage and then the mind grows heated;
Begin and then the work will be completed.”

He was given that opportunity before with the Zechsdick char and all he did was cause trouble.

If you have a kid who is a drug addict, it is better to sooner (rather than later when they overdose), to acknowledge that they've changed and the person who was your son or daughter simply doesn't exist due to the chemicals restructuring their brain.

I hope risto gets help with whatever is troubling him, BUT I'm not going to help enable his behavior, especially when it shits all over most everyone else. Though I'm sure some who made huge profits on his last game bender, and didn't have any cleanup to do, will be anxious for him to return in all his catch/dump glory.

And here's a hint for all those watching: If your solution adds to the admin workload or depends on PJ "Just Doing It," I'm going to stand against it unless the benefits can be rationally validated as more beneficial to the admin themselves in payouts or in the delays sure to follow in anything associated with PJ.

There are costs in time and work that the Dev fund no longer pays. Bad enough i'm paying myself out of my own invested and diluted funds.

On IRC I see that Speed has a plan that pays for itself--that's what we need more of. Not "let's just give risto his account back and hope the admin will fix it before he leaves with more funds."

A good administrator would be better than leaving them idle, and it would give someone an opportunity to build some in-game wealth from the fees.




That's a good point, if Risto was given his accounts back it should be on the strict understanding that he gets one chance only, and if he obviously starts creating problems that need reversing then he's banned. He might not want to agree to such conditions, so maybe this discussion is pointless anyway, but a 'rational' person would 'play' the accounts to maximise their value.

I would be prepared to give him a chance if he was interested, but I wouldn't be cleaning up any mess either ... maybe Risto will add his thoughts. I would like to see a 'rational' risto controlling his accounts trying to max his account value, it would be good for the Game.

He would likely did what he did before and create huge dump and catch orders and fuck with the game's commands--though just selling stuff cheap or hugely overpaying to fake accounts he owns would be an easy way to retake his assets--though he'd likely have to do it for real players to avoid detection. And while it is reversible it will make angry players when their "deal of a lifetime" is revoked by admin--personally I don't want to deal with the workload or rightfully angry players.  

Though giving away the only leverage we have is pretty stupid too.

As for the 10% to Town--I was fine with that when I added it to the Bounty (as per smooth's brilliant suggestion), before Loaf and iluvbitcoins shot it down--nice to see they get it now.

Yes, we were discussing on IRC newcorp which is part of his assets, though it wasn't immediately clear to me whether he is a majority shareholder or not. My suggestion was for the town to appoint a paid trustee to manage newcorp on behalf of the shareholders (probably with the choice of trustee approved by other shareholders). Appointing one to manage his assets more broadly is also likely appropriate.

If nothing else, protecting the value those accounts with reasonable administration will maximize probability and magnitude of the recovery to his victims.

Nothing I really disagree with above, although I see a lot of Risto's behaviour as surface level bravado, hiding a deeply wounded and damaged person underneath.

I do think Risto controlling his Game accounts now would make things much more interesting for the rest of us though. He can't withdraw any funds, and without admin access he can't do any damage either, but he could use his ~50% ownership to make the Game much more fun and dynamic. So far CK has been pretty technical, and the only battles have been with non-playing entities in other lands, so there's been no point for players to build armies. If Risto was able to control his accounts then I'd say there would be a good chance we'd see some real battles, and with a neutral GM, that would make things pretty cool, and the outbreak of 'war' would be a great promo for any ICO.

At the moment with the economic engine stalled, and the health challenge optional there isn't a lot of interest factor for new players, so even if Risto just plays the 'bad guy' and builds an army and picks fights with his 'enemies', that's more interesting than what we currently have.

edit: another option is to appoint a proxy for Risto's accounts, IMO his 50% is too large to sit idle, someone needs to activate these accounts, either Risto or someone else

He may need a helping hand in life, and probably most if not all of us would be happy to do that.

He does not need a helping hand in paying his debts, as he has posted a screen shot of a polo account containing millions in cryptocurrency, and claimed tens of millions more in other wealth.

His actions, not only then, when perhaps under stress for personal reasons, but also now given time to reflect, amount to telling us to fuck off and continuing to blame and insult his victims.

Yes, he fucked up, but he can well afford to cover his mistake, far better I might add, than most of those scammed by him.

After that, and even better after repayment and a sincere apology for harm done, sure, give him help, second changes, etc.

Meanwhile, if people now invest time and money into developing the game into something far more valuable, his in-game assets will easily be worth enough to repay the debts in full, along with appropriate interest and penalties. Sure, some creditors may wish to negotiate a settlement given the possibility that effort at increasing the value of the game might not be successful. That is their prerogative, and Risto may or may not cooperate in such a negotiation. The effort to develop the game can proceed in either case; his participation at this immediate juncture is neither necessary nor obviously (given his recent behavior) a net positive.

EDIT: typo

I don't think he has any leverage (he'll just walk away), but his creditors do. Hopefully some of them are willing to negotiate.


I believe there's enough reason to give Risto the benefit of the doubt, that his bad decision making was due to extreme stress induced by his personal situation, substance abuse, bad influences, genetic pre-disposition to mental health problems. Not everyone might agree, but IMO good people can lose it mentally, and do really stupid things, even act dishonestly, but later can regain their true  'character'. I'm nearly 50, and in my life I've seen good people fall down into bad behaviour many times, and some stay there, and some manage to get back up. Those who get back up sometimes need a helping hand, and some understanding. None of us are black or white, we're mostly grey.


This is basically the same outcome as I am suggesting - once his in-game assets are high enough to repay his debts, he does so, and hopefully has enough left over to be a significant holder once all the debts are repaid. What I'm advocating is Risto and those he owes agree to this NOW, which would benefit everyone. Risto playing the Game as a regular player without admin privileges etc is unambiguously good IMO.

What's his leverage to negotiate anything?

He wrecked the game and scammed a large portion of the player base by abusing his admin access. That calls for a significant to severe in-game penalty, up to and including expulsion. Attachment of his in-game assets is mild by comparison.

IMO, once his assets are worth at least enough to pay a meaningful portion of the debt, he should be given one last opportunity to pay the debts, and then the assets can be sold (in an responsible orderly manner, which may take time). This can further include: a reasonable fine to be paid to the Town for abuse and destructive behavior, some Town-determined statutory rate of interest to compensate those harmed for time value of money, and finally a reasonable fee for the liquidator. Whatever assets remain after that, he can still reclaim.

I agree with snapshotting CKO before ICO, in part to ensure that the ICO token is a pure utility/in-game currency token without any ownership rights or future ownership rights. That will simplify the ICO terms and marketing, and reduce concerns of exchanges about legal problems.

I think this is a good idea to explore, diluting M to give Town 10%, and use the remainder for an ICO to fund development. I would suggest taking the snapshot for the ownership token before the ICO, to soften the dilution a little, and maybe the numbers can be tweaked slightly, but the Game needs dev funds, and an ICO is probably the best option.

Long term, I want to see Risto regain control of his accounts and rejoin the Game, so I am not in favour of confiscating his in-game assets now for either development, or forced debt repayment. My personal opinion is Risto has already lost enough money from his involvement with CK, and he could plausibly plead some form of diminished responsibility for his bad decision making due to stress induced mental health problems. That doesn't mean the debt issue can be ignored, but IMO Risto should be given every opportunity to negotiate a 'fair' repayment plan with his creditors, probably tied in some way to the value of M.

The best outcome for the Game is:
1- Risto negotiates a repayment plan with those he owes, probably linked to the value of his assets, and regains control of his accounts
2- Re-start the economic engines of the Game, namely building payouts, taxes, etc
3- Restructure M, as outlined by Loaf/smooth above
4- Tokenise M

I agree, if he hasn't paid by then.

This is mainly what I was thinking of with the 6 tril dilution. Town gets 1 tril to have its 10%, then the 50% is used for ICO. Alternatively, can just take over Zech's 50%, give Town 10%, and ICO the 40%.

One possibility to raise funds for development is to do a secondary offering on ownership tokens once they are distributed. Obviously existing owners will need to approve (and will be diluted unless they buy more tokens).

Another possibility is in-game taxes. Though of course, blood-from-a-stone applies there and also high in-game taxes will probably depress (if that is possible) and retard the growth the in-game economy.

I don't know what other resources already exist within the game/town/admin structure.


That is quite a good perspective. There better be a credible plan to increase the value of the game. Something that will convince investors to put in new money is a good test that the plan is credible and not just a circle jerk.

Alternately, dilute M and run an ICO with the new supply. The long history of the game and existing player base can be considered as adding value through bootstrapping, and the ICO proceeds used to further develop the game engine, hire writers for storyline, etc. and launch marketing.

Okay, thanks for the clarification on the binaryfate XMR item. I never thought it was an issue with your depo in any event



Okay, I can see the perspective of the float argument in regards to M/CKM.

But if we don't accept partial takeover of some assets and/or dilution for everyone, I do not understand how the game will progress as the game has nothing to use to fund development and growth. For example, Town wants 10% of M/CKM. Where does that come from in your scenario? With 4 tril M/CKM, that is 400 bil. They own 43 bil atm. Where does the 357 bil come from?

Yes, an auction at a later date could also be a possibility with Zech's player assets if depo-related items are not repaid. But how are we getting from where we are now to a point in the future where there is actually some demand for the game assets?

Let's look at in from the perspective of a new player/investor. The project has a bad history. There isn't currently even a game. Why do I want to play/invest?

We have one absentee developer who is currently unpaid and does not have motivation to work on CK. Even when he was paid, we have seen the game go on for a year without progress on tech-side or game-side development. If we want people to work on the game or tech, what is their motivation? Just because they want to? They'd be far better off just launching their own project without all the depo-related debts and largely abandoned community.

If game/tech talent is found, how are they compensated? Is town willing to just whittle away it's 1% share of the game?

They will drive up the value equivalently to everyone who owns M, not to those with debts to be repaid.
His assets should be put on auction at a time in the future to settle his debts if it were possible.

I'm not aware of this, but if Risto created unbacked M3 tokens then he owes that too.

I do not support redirecting Risto's assets 'for the good of the game/development' (what legitimate basis is there for that?) when there are players who got screwed by him personally having created and sold unbacked tokens who have a more clear and obvious claim against those assets.

Also, as I said before about abandoned accounts, if his assets remain frozen pending settlement of the debts (or in theory forever) that will drive up the value of the M that does float. Both the game/town and other players will benefit.

There are no M3 losses. All deposited M3 was and is fully accounted for (now held in Gringotts). binaryFate deposited XMR and sold the M3 to arbitrage B1 - he is owed BTC.

Any way to change the name to straight Crypto Kingdom? How hard is it to change other elements (like supply) once the token is out in the open?

So I guess the next stage to discuss is where funds for game development will be coming from.

HMC (and possibly others, but I do not see an active IRC) is of the opinion that any of Zech's assets should solely be used to pay off debtholders of E1 and B1 and that they should be held on the chance that Zech will pay these debts. As I've stated before, from Zech's perspective, it doesn't make any sense to pay anything as he has already lost tens of thousands of XMR and thousands of BTC. With the rise in BTC pricing especially, claims are in the tens of millions in fiat pricing!

Additionally, just focusing on E1 and B1 ignores possible losses in M3. For example, I believe binaryfate (correct if wrong) is out like almost 100 BTC worth of XMR that he deposited but was not credited for.

This also stifles the potential for game development (through funding) and completely ignores those who deposited a lot of XMR, but did not partake in the depo items. For example, under this plan, Karl Hungus gets nothing, even though he is out millions. There are many others who invested 1k-10k XMR or more and have not come close to ROI who are ignored.

A far better system is to use Zech's items for development and crowdfund purposes. As stated before, Zech-related accounts are roughly 50% of the game. Town wanted 10% of M, so that comes from there. You then have 40% and of that, you could perhaps crowdfund +-20% and hold back +-20% for depo-related repayments. Honestly, even as one who is owed a fairly decent amount of money from the depo-related items, I'd far rather just have the full 40% crowdfunded and used for game development and promotion as that gives everyone the best chance at a sustainable game ecosystem.

There is also the option of a mass dilution in M for everyone, and then that portion is used for game development. For example, we are at 4mil coins now, we move up to 10mil and that gives the game 6mil to work with. This would impact everyone equally based on their ownership level and I would be open to this.

Honestly, I am open to anything that allows for a sensible and economic way of developing the game. From that 60k+ XMR and 1000+ BTC Zech spent, we could of had an awesome game at this stage We are going on a year with more-or-less nonexistent game development. When is this going to change?

Whatever is decided when it comes to M/CKM supply, I also say that we go ahead and create the CKO token for game platform ownership/voting purposes. There is a "board" but aside from HMC and Mooo, I do not see SirJacket on the game anymore at all. HMC retains decent M ownership (roughly 100bil), as does Mooo (~25 bil), but SirJacket barely has 1bil M. Voting should be based on the level of CKO ownership, or people should at least be able to assign proxies (which can be done in these tokens) to vote for them. Of course, if we give Town 60% of the game, voting may be a moot point