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Topic: CryptoNote technical discussion and Chess Challenge - page 43. (Read 96147 times)

sr. member
Activity: 336
Merit: 250
Admitting one is wrong is needed more often than not in chess as in life.

With the analogy to life, does chess provide some insight into or benefit that connects with life?

Chess makes this point easier to understand, because mistakes are often clearly identifiable in retrospect and not learning from them will lead to the same pattern being repeated in future games. In life sometimes "mistakes" can be harder to quantify and therefore easier to deny.

I find it difficult to get excited about mastering chess. All that effort and for what gain?

What motivates chess players? As I see from this game example that with enough brain power, you essentially duel to a near draw (both black and white have the same number of pieces) probably with random outcome.
Motivation is different for every player. For some it is about the enjoyment of competition, others see chess as a type of art and express their creativity by harmoniously directing their pieces.

Btw, according to chess master insights, which has a stronger position right now, black or white? And why? Is there any science to it?
I think the position is about equal. In general I agree with ArticMine that in an endgame with pawns on both sides of the board a bishop is usually preferable to a knight. However with strong outpost on d4 for the knight and an active king black is doing just fine here. Blacks biggest weakness (backwards pawn on d6) cannot be easily attacked. Winning material or creating a dangerous passed pawn will be difficult for both sides.

The bishop is stronger than the knight in that ending. What I do not like about that line is the centralized black king. I am voting for 28. Bd5.

Speed chess is more interesting. But I seem to lose as well. Yet at least it is more thrilling and might see some motivation in that, because it more mimics the challenge of life which is that we can't calculate all the possibilities (nor would I want to, as then life wouldn't be unique and we wouldn't exist).
I like speed chess too. Many players prefer longer time controls but most would agree faster games are better suited for marketing chess as a form of entertainment to a broader market.

I remember when I was in Davao in 1994 for the first time, there was a older man who wanted me to play chess with him around the clock. And he won 95+% of the games against me and even with his eyes blindfolded!

Playing blindfolded is actually less difficult than it sounds for experienced chess players.  I have no problems playing an entire game blindfolded.  I suspect that close to 100% of all chess masters (and many lower rated players) are capable of doing so. Difficulty is much harder if asked to play multiple games at once. The record below is extremely impressive:
http://www.blindfoldchess.net/blog/2011/12/after_64_years_new_world_blindfold_record_set_by_marc_lang_playing_46_games/

Being timed and hearing moves in random order also makes things much more difficult. Some of the timed blindfold simultaneous exhibitions I have seen have been unfair IMHO because the clock is not pushed by the announcers until after the spoken move (by Magnus in the case below) is physically made by his assistant (which could be several seconds after the move is vocalized).  It is also essential that all commentators speak with perfect chess notation so there is never any confusion (and wasted time) about castling long vs. castling short or which piece is making a capture (Rcxd1 vs Rfxd1, etc).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lqmzadHNSLs

Watch a few blindfold exhibitions to see what I mean.

scenario 1:
Announcer says "On board four white plays knight capture bishop"
Players says "Ncxd5 or Nexd5"
Announcer says "White captures on d5 with the Knight currently on c3"

scenario 2 :
Announcer says "Board four, Ncxd5"

When playing multiple timed games at once scenario 2 is obviously far superior. Skilled announcers and perfect algebraic descriptions are key.
sr. member
Activity: 378
Merit: 250
Sorry for updating the position 100 minutes later than normal.

I vote for Nd4 centralizing our knight
sr. member
Activity: 378
Merit: 250


I thought Be6 won a pawn:( If I had seen all of that I would not have voted for it. At least we did not lose any material:)

2 votes for 28.Bd5: XMRpromotions, LucyLovesCrypto
I am voting for 28. Bd5.

Current position
Based on the votes in this thread Team Monero has chosen to play Bd5. Now it is time for Team Boolberry to respond. I will plan to count votes again tomorrow at approximately 0:00 UTC.

Team Monero (white pieces) vs. Team Boolberry (black pieces)
black to move


Game PGN:
Code:
1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Qxd4 a6 5.c4 Nc6 6.Qe3 g6 7.Nc3 Bg7 8.Be2 Nf6 9.O-O O-O 10.h3 Nd7 11.b3 Nc5 12.Bb2 f5 13.exf5 Bxf5 14.Rad1 Qa5 15.Rd2 Rf6 16.Nd5 Re6 17.Qf4 Ne4 18.Bxg7 Kxg7 19.Rb2 Nc3 20.Nd4 Re5 21.Bf3 Nxd5 22.Bxd5 Qc3 23.Nxf5+ Rxf5 24.Qd2 Qxd2 25.Rxd2 Rb8 26.a3 e5 27.Be6 Rf6 28.Bd5
sr. member
Activity: 420
Merit: 262
Admitting one is wrong is needed more often than not in chess as in life.

With the analogy to life, does chess provide some insight into or benefit that connects with life?

Is that game still ongoing.  Smiley Last time I checked on this game it was still end of summer and now (I heard) it is snowing. I thought surely the game would have concluded by now, so I was shocked to open the thread and see it still only down to the pawns and one higher powered piece each.

I find it difficult to get excited about mastering chess. All that effort and for what gain? To prove that one can calculate how many different ways there are to arrange board pieces, but what is the creativity and social reward?

With programming, I get to create something that people use and something that is a lasting and somewhat unique creation. With basketball or football, I get the thrill of the physical acrobatics, etc..

What motivates chess players? As I see from this game example that with enough brain power, you essentially duel to a near draw (both black and white have the same number of pieces) probably with random outcome.

Btw, according to chess master insights, which has a stronger position right now, black or white? And why? Is there any science to it?

P.S. kudos on the outcome of the game thus far on both sides. I would never have the patience and would have blown the game long ago trying to accelerate the outcome. The intricacy of the game makes me want to scream and pull my hair out. I remember the summer that wasn't because I spent it in the basement building an elaborate train world (replete with active volcano, etc), but for chess? I even regret the train these days (surely there was more rewarding activities I could have expended my scarce youth on).

I suppose it is just different interests and personalities?

I remember when I was in Davao in 1994 for the first time, there was a older man who wanted me to play chess with him around the clock. And he won 95+% of the games against me and even with his eyes blindfolded! But after a couple of wasted days (and trying to get better at least so I could give a decent challenge), I realized why the heck did I travel all the way to Asia to spend it inside a living room playing chess with a European. Lol. I believe that was my first and last attempt at chess, other than winning some games in a tournament at summer camp when I was 13. But in comparison, I was the entire camp champion in badminton, so perhaps people take interest in what they excel. And I also bowled a nearly 300 perfect game at age 13. With badminton and bowling, even though you aim for consistency, it can't be so your adjustments are unique each play. Every programming job brings new challenges and creativity. Does chess have an analogous variability?

Speed chess is more interesting. But I seem to lose as well. Yet at least it is more thrilling and might see some motivation in that, because it more mimics the challenge of life which is that we can't calculate all the possibilities (nor would I want to, as then life wouldn't be unique and we wouldn't exist).
legendary
Activity: 2282
Merit: 1050
Monero Core Team
I like b4 better.  Be6 seems likely followed by Rf6 and then we just move the bishop back. At least with b4 we are advancing our pawns to the point where black may at some point need to give something up to stop them. Probably not (and we still draw), but it is possible.

3 votes for Be6: ArticMine, LucyLovesCrypto, XMRChina
1 vote for Bxc6: nwfella
2 vote b4: XMRpromotions, smooth

Yes we both had the same reason for voting b4 last move. I think we should play Bd5 here. After Nd4 we have another chance to play b4. The position is now about even because of the time we just wasted. However like you said the most likely result probably would have been a draw after 27.b4 anyway (although I did prefer our position and thought we had at least some winning chances).

After 28.Rxd6 black can play Kf8 (preventing 29.Rd7+ getting us out of the pin and threatening Ke7 and Nd4) making our material gain only temporary.
28.Rxd6 Kf8
29.c5 Ke7
30.Bd5 Rxd6
31.cxd6+ Kxd6
32.Bxc6 simplifies the game to a dead drawn position

Don't be mad about me sharing any secrets. I am virtually certain that at least one or two of the Boolberry players saw the Kf8 idea before playing e5 (based on my observations of their skill in this game and in the games vs letsplayagame: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/lets-play-a-game-of-chess-1148538)

28.Bd5 is the only chance we have to keep things somewhat dynamic.

1 vote for 28.Bd5: XMRpromotions



I thought Be6 won a pawn:( If I had seen all of that I would not have voted for it. At least we did not lose any material:)

2 votes for 28.Bd5: XMRpromotions, LucyLovesCrypto

I must admit I missed 28. ... Kf8; nevertheless I would not play 32. Bc6 in the line above. The bishop is stronger than the knight in that ending. What I do not like about that line is the centralized black king. I am voting for 28. Bd5. Admitting one is wrong is needed more often than not in chess as in life.
sr. member
Activity: 414
Merit: 251
I like b4 better.  Be6 seems likely followed by Rf6 and then we just move the bishop back. At least with b4 we are advancing our pawns to the point where black may at some point need to give something up to stop them. Probably not (and we still draw), but it is possible.

3 votes for Be6: ArticMine, LucyLovesCrypto, XMRChina
1 vote for Bxc6: nwfella
2 vote b4: XMRpromotions, smooth

Yes we both had the same reason for voting b4 last move. I think we should play Bd5 here. After Nd4 we have another chance to play b4. The position is now about even because of the time we just wasted. However like you said the most likely result probably would have been a draw after 27.b4 anyway (although I did prefer our position and thought we had at least some winning chances).

After 28.Rxd6 black can play Kf8 (preventing 29.Rd7+ getting us out of the pin and threatening Ke7 and Nd4) making our material gain only temporary.
28.Rxd6 Kf8
29.c5 Ke7
30.Bd5 Rxd6
31.cxd6+ Kxd6
32.Bxc6 simplifies the game to a dead drawn position

Don't be mad about me sharing any secrets. I am virtually certain that at least one or two of the Boolberry players saw the Kf8 idea before playing e5 (based on my observations of their skill in this game and in the games vs letsplayagame: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/lets-play-a-game-of-chess-1148538)

28.Bd5 is the only chance we have to keep things somewhat dynamic.

1 vote for 28.Bd5: XMRpromotions



I thought Be6 won a pawn:( If I had seen all of that I would not have voted for it. At least we did not lose any material:)

2 votes for 28.Bd5: XMRpromotions, LucyLovesCrypto
legendary
Activity: 2156
Merit: 1072
Crypto is the separation of Power and State.
I would like to see more discussion on this:
https://www.reddit.com/r/ethereum/comments/3tappe/early_alpha_monerolike_linkable_ring_signatures/

vbuterin mentioned this:
https://www.reddit.com/r/ethereum/comments/3tappe/early_alpha_monerolike_linkable_ring_signatures/cx4ighh
"Beware of the following two caveats:

This has totally not been security-reviewed; it has some test cases here but that's about it, this is still very very raw.
If actually using this in production, make sure to avoid accidentally turning the ether address that you use to pay transaction fees into a de-anonymization vector."

fluffyponyza seemed to imply there are other security problems with the ethereum implementation
https://www.reddit.com/r/ethereum/comments/3tappe/early_alpha_monerolike_linkable_ring_signatures/cx4y2ek

"Nothing salty about it, I've been calling Vitalik out for years.

Ethereum can literally implement almost everything that every cryptocurrency can ever do, because it's got this Turing-complete language. But it doesn't make it magically secure, and a broken security model can't be fixed by adding layers of complexity."

Can someone explain exactly how the "layers of complexity" make the security model of ethereum weaker than existing stand alone CryptoNote implementations (such as Monero or Boolberry).

Thank you

I can't directly address all the specific concerns but here is a good place to start (links from fluffypony):

https://www.reddit.com/r/ethereum/comments/3tappe/early_alpha_monerolike_linkable_ring_signatures/cx55kp2
http://i.imgur.com/MPrtgdy.png

It appears as if some have concerns about Vitalik having a sufficient understanding of the mathematical proofs used by Ethereum. Whether or not this will lead to a future exploit "breaking" something within Ethereum I do not know.

Personally I feel most confident about Monero (compared to other CryptoNote implementations) specifically because MRL relies on subject matter experts for these type of things.

https://lab.getmonero.org/

It's highly complimentary to Monero devs that of all available anon/privacy tech, ETH choose theirs.   Cool

sr. member
Activity: 336
Merit: 250
I would like to see more discussion on this:
https://www.reddit.com/r/ethereum/comments/3tappe/early_alpha_monerolike_linkable_ring_signatures/

vbuterin mentioned this:
https://www.reddit.com/r/ethereum/comments/3tappe/early_alpha_monerolike_linkable_ring_signatures/cx4ighh
"Beware of the following two caveats:

This has totally not been security-reviewed; it has some test cases here but that's about it, this is still very very raw.
If actually using this in production, make sure to avoid accidentally turning the ether address that you use to pay transaction fees into a de-anonymization vector."

fluffyponyza seemed to imply there are other security problems with the ethereum implementation
https://www.reddit.com/r/ethereum/comments/3tappe/early_alpha_monerolike_linkable_ring_signatures/cx4y2ek

"Nothing salty about it, I've been calling Vitalik out for years.

Ethereum can literally implement almost everything that every cryptocurrency can ever do, because it's got this Turing-complete language. But it doesn't make it magically secure, and a broken security model can't be fixed by adding layers of complexity."

Can someone explain exactly how the "layers of complexity" make the security model of ethereum weaker than existing stand alone CryptoNote implementations (such as Monero or Boolberry).

Thank you

I can't directly address all the specific concerns but here is a good place to start (links from fluffypony):

https://www.reddit.com/r/ethereum/comments/3tappe/early_alpha_monerolike_linkable_ring_signatures/cx55kp2
http://i.imgur.com/MPrtgdy.png

It appears as if some have concerns about Vitalik having a sufficient understanding of the mathematical proofs used by Ethereum. Whether or not this will lead to a future exploit "breaking" something within Ethereum I do not know.

Personally I feel most confident about the security of Monero (compared to other CryptoNote implementations) specifically because MRL relies on subject matter experts for these type of things.

https://lab.getmonero.org/
sr. member
Activity: 336
Merit: 250
I like b4 better.  Be6 seems likely followed by Rf6 and then we just move the bishop back. At least with b4 we are advancing our pawns to the point where black may at some point need to give something up to stop them. Probably not (and we still draw), but it is possible.

3 votes for Be6: ArticMine, LucyLovesCrypto, XMRChina
1 vote for Bxc6: nwfella
2 vote b4: XMRpromotions, smooth

Yes we both had the same reason for voting b4 last move. I think we should play Bd5 here. After Nd4 we have another chance to play b4. The position is now about even because of the time we just wasted. However like you said the most likely result probably would have been a draw after 27.b4 anyway (although I did prefer our position and thought we had at least some winning chances).

After 28.Rxd6 black can play Kf8 (preventing 29.Rd7+ getting us out of the pin and threatening Ke7 and Nd4) making our material gain only temporary.
28.Rxd6 Kf8
29.c5 Ke7
30.Bd5 Rxd6
31.cxd6+ Kxd6
32.Bxc6 simplifies the game to a dead drawn position

Don't be mad about me sharing any secrets. I am virtually certain that at least one or two of the Boolberry players saw the Kf8 idea before playing e5 (based on my observations of their skill in this game and in the games vs letsplayagame: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/lets-play-a-game-of-chess-1148538)

28.Bd5 is the only chance we have to keep things somewhat dynamic.

1 vote for 28.Bd5: XMRpromotions

hero member
Activity: 686
Merit: 500
I would like to see more discussion on this:
https://www.reddit.com/r/ethereum/comments/3tappe/early_alpha_monerolike_linkable_ring_signatures/

vbuterin mentioned this:
https://www.reddit.com/r/ethereum/comments/3tappe/early_alpha_monerolike_linkable_ring_signatures/cx4ighh
"Beware of the following two caveats:

This has totally not been security-reviewed; it has some test cases here but that's about it, this is still very very raw.
If actually using this in production, make sure to avoid accidentally turning the ether address that you use to pay transaction fees into a de-anonymization vector."

fluffyponyza seemed to imply there are other security problems with the ethereum implementation
https://www.reddit.com/r/ethereum/comments/3tappe/early_alpha_monerolike_linkable_ring_signatures/cx4y2ek

"Nothing salty about it, I've been calling Vitalik out for years.

Ethereum can literally implement almost everything that every cryptocurrency can ever do, because it's got this Turing-complete language. But it doesn't make it magically secure, and a broken security model can't be fixed by adding layers of complexity."

Can someone explain exactly how the "layers of complexity" make the security model of ethereum weaker than existing stand alone CryptoNote implementations (such as Monero or Boolberry).

Thank you
sr. member
Activity: 378
Merit: 250
Current position
Based on the votes in this thread Team Boolberry has chosen to play Rf6. Now it is time for Team Monero to respond. I will plan to count votes again tomorrow at approximately 0:00 UTC.

Team Monero (white pieces) vs. Team Boolberry (black pieces)
white to move


Game PGN:
Code:
1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Qxd4 a6 5.c4 Nc6 6.Qe3 g6 7.Nc3 Bg7 8.Be2 Nf6 9.O-O O-O 10.h3 Nd7 11.b3 Nc5 12.Bb2 f5 13.exf5 Bxf5 14.Rad1 Qa5 15.Rd2 Rf6 16.Nd5 Re6 17.Qf4 Ne4 18.Bxg7 Kxg7 19.Rb2 Nc3 20.Nd4 Re5 21.Bf3 Nxd5 22.Bxd5 Qc3 23.Nxf5+ Rxf5 24.Qd2 Qxd2 25.Rxd2 Rb8 26.a3 e5 27.Be6 Rf6
hero member
Activity: 686
Merit: 500
Rf6 because every other move leads to loss of material



At first I could not see how Rf6 prevented the loss of a pawn. After figuring it out I also support this move

sr. member
Activity: 770
Merit: 284
★Bitvest.io★ Play Plinko or Invest!
Rf6 because every other move leads to loss of material



Yes Rf6 is the best move here. Add my vote

Rf6 would also be my first choice.
sr. member
Activity: 336
Merit: 250
Rf6 because every other move leads to loss of material



Yes Rf6 is the best move here. Add my vote
sr. member
Activity: 378
Merit: 250
Rf6 because every other move leads to loss of material

sr. member
Activity: 378
Merit: 250
Current position
Based on the votes in this thread Team Monero has chosen to play Be6. Now it is time for Team Boolberry to respond. I will plan to count votes again tomorrow at approximately 0:00 UTC.

Team Monero (white pieces) vs. Team Boolberry (black pieces)
black to move


Game PGN:
Code:
1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Qxd4 a6 5.c4 Nc6 6.Qe3 g6 7.Nc3 Bg7 8.Be2 Nf6 9.O-O O-O 10.h3 Nd7 11.b3 Nc5 12.Bb2 f5 13.exf5 Bxf5 14.Rad1 Qa5 15.Rd2 Rf6 16.Nd5 Re6 17.Qf4 Ne4 18.Bxg7 Kxg7 19.Rb2 Nc3 20.Nd4 Re5 21.Bf3 Nxd5 22.Bxd5 Qc3 23.Nxf5+ Rxf5 24.Qd2 Qxd2 25.Rxd2 Rb8 26.a3 e5 27.Be6
sr. member
Activity: 336
Merit: 250
Something shocking happened today in Chess news. Magnus Carlsen (world# 1) blundered a piece!

https://chess24.com/en/read/news/euro-teams-5-carlsen-hits-4-year-low
legendary
Activity: 2968
Merit: 1198
I like b4 better.  Be6 seems likely followed by Rf6 and then we just move the bishop back. At least with b4 we are advancing our pawns to the point where black may at some point need to give something up to stop them. Probably not (and we still draw), but it is possible.

3 votes for Be6: ArticMine, LucyLovesCrypto, XMRChina
1 vote for Bxc6: nwfella
2 vote b4: XMRpromotions, smooth
sr. member
Activity: 336
Merit: 250
It's my opinion that white should play BxKn and then proceed to decimate the pawn structure
You might want to elaborate on "decimate the pawn structure". It seems to be that after Bxc6 bxc6 black can capture on b3 and a3 just as quickly as white can capture on d6 and c6. If your goal is to trade everything off and force a draw that would be a good idea.

27. Be6

2 votes for Be6: ArticMine, LucyLovesCrypto
1 vote for Bxc6: nwfella

3 votes for Be6: ArticMine, LucyLovesCrypto, XMRChina
1 vote for Bxc6: nwfella

3 votes for Be6: ArticMine, LucyLovesCrypto, XMRChina
1 vote for Bxc6: nwfella
1 vote b4: XMRpromotions
full member
Activity: 122
Merit: 100
It's my opinion that white should play BxKn and then proceed to decimate the pawn structure
You might want to elaborate on "decimate the pawn structure". It seems to be that after Bxc6 bxc6 black can capture on b3 and a3 just as quickly as white can capture on d6 and c6. If your goal is to trade everything off and force a draw that would be a good idea.

27. Be6

2 votes for Be6: ArticMine, LucyLovesCrypto
1 vote for Bxc6: nwfella

3 votes for Be6: ArticMine, LucyLovesCrypto, XMRChina
1 vote for Bxc6: nwfella
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