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Topic: Dash Codename Evolution - page 4. (Read 7247 times)

legendary
Activity: 2156
Merit: 1072
Crypto is the separation of Power and State.
October 23, 2015, 06:35:42 PM
#46
Even Evan said he is trying to bring it to the protocol level as opposed to masternodes. I think it is too late at this point. His design is probably too far gone to get it to that point without starting completely over.

Why too late? The only coin where it seems to be too late to change anything is Bitcoin.

What a clueless noob!  No wonder you are easy, low-information prey for the DashHole cult.   Cheesy

I guess you missed today's news about CLTV.  Does Dash support CLTV?  No.  Will it support CSV?  No.

So, no Lightning-type payment channels or Liquid-type sidechains for poor old Dash.
legendary
Activity: 3066
Merit: 1188
October 23, 2015, 06:27:42 PM
#45

Dash - Starts with 'D', ends with 'evolution'

Brilliant marketing. Didn't even have to hand you the noose.

Personally, I like Devolution better than Dashed. Little bit more relatable for the rest of the board here.

There sure are some serious thinkers on bitcointalk  Roll Eyes
newbie
Activity: 38
Merit: 0
October 23, 2015, 03:45:26 PM
#44
Dash - Starts with 'D', ends with 'evolution'

Brilliant marketing. Didn't even have to hand you the noose.

Personally, I like Devolution better than Dashed. Little bit more relatable for the rest of the board here.
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
October 23, 2015, 08:25:23 AM
#43
Quote
Kind of crazy folks are saying the masternodes are centralised though, there's over 3000 of them now and its growing all the time.




Go waste gamble on Monero Dice since this is the only thing you're good at over there.




Monero haters with no good but to cry*p*to here...should at least work on ur coin instead. Dash is way above you it is not the reason why ur doing so shitty on the marketcap...maybe it's because u and ur developers wasting time on forums and not doing any marketing *Unless you call spreading flyers on DASH presentations is actually PR/Marketing LOL* OR any development so you cry out loud on anything Evan and he's team does I bet if Evan says tomorrow I'll do xyz you will still be here saying NOOOO you can't do this because because ...we jealous.

i would just laugh about it if this wasn´t soooo sad  Embarrassed Embarrassed Embarrassed -->


I think each person needs to decide whether you/they are investing long term or trading short term.  If you are investing long term, then you cant react to every small piece of news,  that is probably going to hurt you, don’t react emotionally to what you read in the forums. Assess the situation and then respond, yes we are now open source, and someone found a way to skew the masternode payments in their favor and will probably make 100 or 200 DRK out of that, the problem has a very limited scope and is not worth reacting to, is not threatening to the network at all.  Evan will patch it and we move on. Only consequence a few masternodes will miss some payments while the patch is deployed, why is it such a big deal?

There is a new solution for payments already on testnet, this issue is really contained, it looks like someone will get a new PS4 out of it or something. Is that reason to dump your 100K investment? Think more before you act.

Fairly sure BagHolder010 doesn't really have a 100K investment.

I am sure you are correct, I was just putting some perspective out there for lurking investors and newcomers.

Please buy my order at .02 Mintpal because I am FAIRLY  sure you won't. I would be happy to get my BTC's back even thou BTC prices are down.


Another annoying delusion that people seem to keep sprouting on here is the "just wait" mentality, or "to the moon". As though we're always just moments away from some huge price surge or mass adoption.

Get real. It's a fallacy and you're living in dream land.

Every top cryptocurrency has done nothing but decline the entire year of 2014. That's the reality. There is less steam now then there was last Christmas and most that steam last Christmas was a bubble instigated by the Chinese.

Just my take on the situation

I look at it the same way but I'm stuck lol. I see the same people here talking and talking and most of them bought at what half a dollar? I've spent over $150,000 when price was above $10 because I thought to myself wow this coin actually have potentials because of all these updates from Evan unlike ANY other coin including BTC. I hate it when someone talks immature specially when they write your ignored very silly to me.

I kept asking myself how did BTC go from $5-7 to $30 & then up to $120...To buy 10,000 Darkcoins at price $50 is half million dollars. Who do you think needs Darkcoin more than the Chinese now, Most of us here live in Europe or NA and most of us don't have issues with showing our money to our governments in fact people here kept saying what kind of cars they wanna buy when price goes up? 

What I want from Evan now is to have a true marketing team in East Asia heavily in China and promote your coin because this group won't take us no where. Plus if Evan can't do the marketing thing let expert do it for you spread out; Evan looks like he's developing inside a basement of he's parents house!


Ohh and Jams  probably Josha since he can't come here again after he's mistake hhhhh
sr. member
Activity: 283
Merit: 250
Best IoT Platform Based on Blockchain
October 23, 2015, 08:01:33 AM
#42
Quote
Kind of crazy folks are saying the masternodes are centralised though, there's over 3000 of them now and its growing all the time.




Go waste gamble on Monero Dice since this is the only thing you're good at over there.




Monero haters with no good but to cry*p*to here...should at least work on ur coin instead. Dash is way above you it is not the reason why ur doing so shitty on the marketcap...maybe it's because u and ur developers wasting time on forums and not doing any marketing *Unless you call spreading flyers on DASH presentations is actually PR/Marketing LOL* OR any development so you cry out loud on anything Evan and he's team does I bet if Evan says tomorrow I'll do xyz you will still be here saying NOOOO you can't do this because because ...we jealous.
sr. member
Activity: 420
Merit: 262
October 23, 2015, 07:24:02 AM
#41
Lending Dash from the masternodes who are accumulating all the coins over time (because the interest rates paid are higher than the debasement rate) could probably drive more usership which might expand network effects value, but the problem is that interest rate paid to masternodes must be less than the debasement rate otherwise mathematically eventually all loans can't be paid back (eventually everything loaned is for making interest payments then the Minsky Moment arrives if not sooner due to stampede of confidence).

You have indicated how Dash could basically become the same fiat economy we've always had, where a group of insiders leech away our production on the debasement-debt hamster wheel.

I may be wrong, but I tend to think that most people entered crypto not only to make a buck, but also because they really want a new paradigm of decentralized, permission-less commerce and not an extension of the debt-debasement hamster wheel society is stuck in. Thus I tend to think most users (and thus network effects) are only going to get really excited about a design that doesn't have anything like a masternode or a delegated-proof-of-share paying an inordinate interest rate to those who can amass large quantity of coins to be one of the masternodes or delegates. For example even though PoW encourages centralization via mining pools, these pools don't earn incredible returns because this is a competitive market where any miner can choose any pool they want at any time. Whereas these masternodes and delegates design take a finite resource of the coin and use that to leech over time all the coins to those who were in this preestablished position (whom ever got the instamine, and I am not going to point fingers, let the SEC do that which I expect they may in due time or not if the culpable parties are also insiders from the financial industry).

Note it is possible to lend any crypto coin, but this is different from lending a coin where the insiders get replenished with all the coins over time. That is a Too Big To Fail model. It is the same model we have that is destroying our society. Debt default losses are socialized and paid by everyone, while the insiders keep getting fatter and fatter. Thus I entirely expect the wider crypto market to reject Dash and it has no chance in hell of becoming the leader for a new paradigm of block chaining scaling.

Also as I said, afaics Evan is bloating the block chain, while increasing instant TPS. The block chain still have to keep up with this proliferation of signatures (N x number of inputs more) which is unscalable decentralized (the problem Bitcoin is facing now but Dash doesn't have this problem yet because user adoption is no where near Bitcoin's modest adoption).

Do you really think Dash will become widely adopted for micropayments with these issues? Okay I hope to shut up now.
sr. member
Activity: 420
Merit: 262
October 23, 2015, 06:55:51 AM
#40
  • Immunity to 51% attack is an incorrect claim, because the block chain hash determines which quorum, thus a chain reorganization can rewrite which quorum was authorized to M of N sign.
  • The instant confirmations can not be trusted because if they are on an orphaned chain (not 51% attack but just the normal process of orphan rate or even 25 - 33% selfish mining attack), then they can be reversed. This is the same reason the prior InstantX (a more limited scope for instant confirmations than Evolution because the inputs had to precommitted to the quorum yet this committed could still be overturned by an orphaned chain, a.k.a. chain reorganization) was a technical failure.

Apologies for being clueless, and I see you said that would be your last comment on this, but perhaps you or someone else can still answer - InstantX could take a hash of a block that is old enough to be considered safe from reorg, wouldn't this solve the issue?

You compel me to reply because that is a strong idea.

That will likely open up new game theory scenarios since you know a priori which quorum will receive which inputs in which future blocks. Perhaps an adversary can try to create masternodes to target inputs to accept or deny signing.

As for the claimed 51% immunity, how can one assume if the 51% that owns the mining power doesn't also own a large chunk of the masternodes thus can wreck havoc on any minority chain which desires to respect the signatures of other masternodes for which the 51% attack is not, i.e. a war between groups of masternodes.

Thus the masternodes could be restarted to by your change to infiltrate the quorums of the minority masternodes (up to the N - M + 1 threshold, another reason to set M very close to N  Wink), so they can remove instant transactions from the minority chain, thus making the claim of 51% immunity false.

Game theory is complex. There are likely many other scenarios of attacks.

The basic problem is using a hash to determine which masternodes are authorized (which is either subject to chain reorg or subject to game theory due to being known well in advance) combined with the fact that masternodes are not fungible but rather are entities owned and with motivation to maximize their gains.

Now having said that, masternodes earn very high payments from the block chain (I saw some chart Evan published that showed up to 50% per annum interest payments) thus I think for now the incentive is for masternodes to be cooperative. Afaics, Dash is basically designed (whether consciously or by serendipity) to funnel all the coins to the insiders over time.

But we are also discussing in the context of what would be the correct design for a coin that was not designed to be unfair and award an advantage to a few entrenched owners of the coin supply. In that case, we'd have to dump the masternodes and find a more fungible design that doesn't have these vulnerabilities. Dash may not actually have these vulnerabilities because the masternodes are making a killing by just cooperating. In a coin design where masternodes weren't leeching most of the coins away, then these game theory vulnerabilities would come into play because the masternodes would have an incentive to collude in other ways to maximize their profits. Yeah we can buy the illusion of decentralization and robust design by paying some masternodes all our coins over time. That works.

hero member
Activity: 966
Merit: 1003
October 23, 2015, 06:53:46 AM
#39
Even Evan said he is trying to bring it to the protocol level as opposed to masternodes. I think it is too late at this point. His design is probably too far gone to get it to that point without starting completely over.

Why too late? The only coin where it seems to be too late to change anything is Bitcoin.

It took Evan quite a while to figure out that the masternode concept is broken one And that he needed to implement privacy tech into the protocol itself.

The Q&A video he mentions that he wants to get away from the masternode concept.

Why even go towards that route if you now want to distance yourself from it?

Seems like he did not think that through very well.

I'm not sure which question you're answering to, but I asked why it's too late? It could be changed to a clone of DOGE next week if enough people wanted it.
legendary
Activity: 2492
Merit: 1473
LEALANA Bitcoin Grim Reaper
October 23, 2015, 06:49:40 AM
#38
So much for decentralization if you rely on Evan to do pretty much all the hard work.

What if he were to be hit by a bus tomorrow? How would the project move on?

Doesnt it seem odd that there is no decentralized core team for dash development? Just one man? <---am I wrong?

legendary
Activity: 2492
Merit: 1473
LEALANA Bitcoin Grim Reaper
October 23, 2015, 06:47:57 AM
#37
Even Evan said he is trying to bring it to the protocol level as opposed to masternodes. I think it is too late at this point. His design is probably too far gone to get it to that point without starting completely over.

Why too late? The only coin where it seems to be too late to change anything is Bitcoin.

It took Evan quite a while to figure out that the masternode concept is broken one And that he needed to implement privacy tech into the protocol itself.

The Q&A video he mentions that he wants to get away from the masternode concept.

Why even go towards that route if you now want to distance yourself from it?

Seems like he did not think that through very well.




hero member
Activity: 966
Merit: 1003
October 23, 2015, 06:41:39 AM
#36
Even Evan said he is trying to bring it to the protocol level as opposed to masternodes. I think it is too late at this point. His design is probably too far gone to get it to that point without starting completely over.

Why too late? The only coin where it seems to be too late to change anything is Bitcoin.
legendary
Activity: 2492
Merit: 1473
LEALANA Bitcoin Grim Reaper
October 23, 2015, 06:39:20 AM
#35
hero member
Activity: 966
Merit: 1003
October 23, 2015, 06:35:31 AM
#34
  • Immunity to 51% attack is an incorrect claim, because the block chain hash determines which quorum, thus a chain reorganization can rewrite which quorum was authorized to M of N sign.
  • The instant confirmations can not be trusted because if they are on an orphaned chain (not 51% attack but just the normal process of orphan rate or even 25 - 33% selfish mining attack), then they can be reversed. This is the same reason the prior InstantX (a more limited scope for instant confirmations than Evolution because the inputs had to precommitted to the quorum yet this committed could still be overturned by an orphaned chain, a.k.a. chain reorganization) was a technical failure.

Apologies for being clueless, and I see you said that would be your last comment on this, but perhaps you or someone else can still answer - InstantX could take a hash of a block that is old enough to be considered safe from reorg, wouldn't this solve the issue?
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
October 23, 2015, 06:15:42 AM
#33
Quote
Kind of crazy folks are saying the masternodes are centralised though, there's over 3000 of them now and its growing all the time.

Of course it is, but you can join the crazy club of masternodders obeying the church of evan for just 2400 usd currently.
30 % of them are at OVH, 17% at Choopa LLC....

No ponders you called them like Kim Kardashians Boutique stores (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-3032841/Kourtney-Khloe-Kardashian-lead-celebrations-DASH-store-goes-online.html),

With DASH it´s even better, the rich get richer and richer as they rake in the most masternode rewards and can launch new masternodes faster thus owning a bigger percent of the network faster and faster, such decentralziation.
Compound intersted is a bankers or dashers wet dream i guess.

Effectively you have a proof of stake system in it´s most pervers form ever.
And with this switch to a PoS system you also inherited all the problems too... in a PoW system you have a healthy split of powers between miners and investors/users/merchants where both have to cooperate or all will lose, you just got rid of it and investors control everything now. congratulations.
What happens if someone confiscated a big amount of BTC or steals them? Yeah really, you are fucked.


 
Let´s not even get into the jurisdical problem running one of those nodes can bring you...

The older ones here know your "masternode" concept already. We called them Supernodes back in the day. Even Skype was sooo cool to use them.
Gnutella has/had (didn´t study it since years) the same flaws.

Anything different than a pure P2P, any model with relaxed rules can and will be used to attack the network more effectively. Randomization is the most important design principle in a fault tolerant p2p network. Some learned it the hard way (Kazaa).

sr. member
Activity: 420
Merit: 262
October 23, 2015, 06:14:32 AM
#32
This screenshot tells me absolutely nothing besides the fact there will be deterministic nodes to increase TPS and it appears he's going to ask supernode operators to act as price feeds or conflict resolution in gambling results.

If you review the quotes of Evan I dug up and if you understand how he implemented InstantX, then you can deduce very obviously how he is intending to implement faster TPS, as I explained. To resummarize, the block chain hash combined mathematically (hashed?) with the inputs to a transaction is used to determine which quorum of masternodes can sign the transaction, then if M of N of them sign, this is broadcast to the block chain and the transaction is considered confirmed even before the block chain has produced the next block. Note Evan specifically stated inputs and not outputs and I assume the reason is so you can't game which masternodes can be the quorum, but then each input needs to reach a mathematically determined quorum separately (don't know if he has realized that yet), and thus the number of signatures on the block chain will increase by the average number of inputs per transaction (multiplied by N!).

Thus the negative implications of this increased TPS and instant confirmations (which will be realized in his design) are as I stated upthread:

  • Block chain becomes more bloated due to N times more signatures, not less.
  • Immunity to 51% attack is an incorrect claim, because the block chain hash determines which quorum, thus a chain reorganization can rewrite which quorum was authorized to M of N sign.
  • The instant confirmations can not be trusted because if they are on an orphaned chain (not 51% attack but just the normal process of orphan rate or even 25 - 33% selfish mining attack), then they can be reversed. This is the same reason the prior InstantX (a more limited scope for instant confirmations than Evolution because the inputs had to precommitted to the quorum yet this committed could still be overturned by an orphaned chain, a.k.a. chain reorganization) was a technical failure.
  • If the masternodes collude to refuse your M of N (and they don't need to be a majority of masternodes, just when ever they control an M of N, then your instant confirmation can not be routed to other masternodes until the next block thus no longer instant so even with a minority they can wreck havoc for example to cause a price decline where they could repurchase before the "fix" and next pump), they can remove your ability to do instant transactions. Remember masternodes are run by real people potentially with agendas and complicity with other motivations (e.g. selling out to the government to enforce KYC on all transactions or colluding to block transactions on decentralized exchanges to aid manipulations of clearing and market price movements or a zillion other things you can think of because top-down distributed is not the same as trustless decentralization. Bottom line is the masternode is not fungible!)

There are other issues. I am just touching the tip of the iceberg of hurt potentially lurking. Apparently not that many people actually use Dash (other than investing it and even then it is suspect how many people use it versus how many TXs are just fictional volume created by the insiders to make it look like the coin is widely used), so perhaps nothing gets really fully stress tested so this enables releasing stuff that wouldn't work in a widely used scenario but under reduced usership works well enough that people think the designs are solid when they aren't. Even Evan said in the Q & A session in the linked video that he has no idea how many users there are of Dash.

Btw, I am not a hater of Dash. I am forced to comment because I have a competing design in development and so I want people to start to think about the technical issues rationally. I will not comment a lot more about this. I would rather release a correct design and take the positive route of introducing solutions rather than analyzing the faults of other designs. I will not be sitting in Dash threads repeating these points. Investors have free will and if they choose to ignore my expertise, that is their prerogative. So let this be my last comments on this. At least I have given you some insight. And also Evan can read this and perhaps he can devise solutions to those weaknesses. So actually I should have shut my mouth. Last time I opened my mouth to explain to Evan in his thread the problems with his implementation of CoinJoin, then masternode concept was born as a way to address my technical points. So seems I am having $millions of influence on the crypto markets, yet haven't yet released a coin myself. This need to change.
sr. member
Activity: 283
Merit: 250
Best IoT Platform Based on Blockchain
October 23, 2015, 06:03:35 AM
#31
idk but it doesn't really sound like a hard problem to fix

Hello? Building fault tolerate decentralized systems is an extremely hard problem.


That's why we have Evan Wink

Killed it.
legendary
Activity: 1694
Merit: 1002
Decentralize Everything
October 23, 2015, 05:57:48 AM
#30
I'm a long term supporter of Dash and whilst I ceased involvement some time ago for unfortunate reasons I hope the longer standing members of the community know that I still support Dash as a project.

However, the information about Evolution that has been released so far has left me feeling unexcited.  There is no meat on the bones.  I believe that the dev team are saying that further details will be restricted for a while for reasons of commercial protection which they are quite entitled to do. Unfortunately this doesn't quite add up for me.  

I look forward to reading the whitepaper when it is released. As it stands, the information released so far is uncharacteristically vague compared to the innovation announcements that the Dash team have made over previous years.  There are perfectly reasonable explanations for this but for the first time in a long time I'm not completely sold on what is going on.

Time will tell.
legendary
Activity: 2968
Merit: 1198
October 23, 2015, 05:53:45 AM
#29
idk but it doesn't really sound like a hard problem to fix

Hello? Building fault tolerate decentralized systems is an extremely hard problem.
legendary
Activity: 2968
Merit: 1198
October 23, 2015, 05:51:43 AM
#28
The hashing code btw in dash is still not optimized so even for cpu miners who know what they do there were big improvements possible. This is due to a fact that a standard crypto library called sph is used http://www.saphir2.com/sphlib/ which is unoptimized C code.

TIL. And they complain that Monero didn't have optimized code for a few weeks after launch? Yikes.

sr. member
Activity: 420
Merit: 262
October 23, 2015, 05:44:16 AM
#27
...
And if they refuse to sign how do you prove they refused to sign  Wink

Really not sure about this but I think you make a request to send and receive an acknowledgement from the masternodes, if you don't get it the send fails and you can choose to try again or send as a regular transaction.

Exactly. A truly decentralized (as opposed to top-down distributed) system can't easily prove the masternode is being intentionally uncooperative and ban it. And now instant transactions are broken for those who the masternodes wish to target, for what ever motivation. See also my post of how this interacts holistically with the intention to be immune to 51% attacks and thus why it fails in Dash's proposed design.

I have much more detailed analysis of scenarios and attacks, but I will reserve that for the appropriate time. If I spill too many beans now, it is a disadvantage for myself and my work.
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