Here's how the voting would work if it were performed right now. The first one comes after all of the other criteria, and is then fed into the second.
For example I have got 10 vote from 10 earned merit holder. One of them is Theb, if he/she exclude me from trust list the will I remove from DT1 ? Or it will fiiled by other vote I got. Because here is limited only 10 as we can see. We can't see how many total vote we got. If not fill from others vote (if I have) then it will be very easy to remove someone from DT1. 
Topic: DefaultTrust changes - page 119. (Read 86349 times)
Here's how the voting would work if it were performed right now. The first one comes after all of the other criteria, and is then fed into the second.
-snip-
Nice work, although I believe that the number of people that will understand the process will drop by over 90%. -snip-
The trust system is constantly abused for political as well as likely organized criminal purposes. It provides cover for these people to abuse honest contributing members of the forum with impunity. The question is not if they help, it is at what cost? The cost is consistently driving away MANY new users who simply didn't understand the unwritten mob rules enforced here. The thief simply spends a few bucks on a new account and is back in minutes. Legitimate users burned this way don't come back, perpetually putting us in a feedback loop of driving away the decent user base while providing cover for the cons.
Blindly following the trust is a HUGE issue. There is no way to even know if the same person is truly in control of the account any more at the end of the day, and purporting otherwise is disingenuous and only harms the people it was designed to protect most, the newer users. It is at its best little more than a notification system for people to warn others of suspect behavior, and at worst a system of protecting organized crime and mobbing cliques.
"The only people you see complain are mostly the ones that have actually been caught with doing something bad.."
That sounds like something dirty cops say when some one tries to get the cop to follow the law too... the rules are for thee and not for me.
Blindly following the trust is a HUGE issue. There is no way to even know if the same person is truly in control of the account any more at the end of the day, and purporting otherwise is disingenuous and only harms the people it was designed to protect most, the newer users. It is at its best little more than a notification system for people to warn others of suspect behavior, and at worst a system of protecting organized crime and mobbing cliques.
"The only people you see complain are mostly the ones that have actually been caught with doing something bad.."
That sounds like something dirty cops say when some one tries to get the cop to follow the law too... the rules are for thee and not for me.
Could you give me a few examples?
There are rules set for this forum, as well as guidelines. If they are not followed and a new member gets negative trust for something that was against that, is it not deserved? I'm not really sure that it affects as many people as you paint it out to be.
I'd also like to request an example of organized crime that is being protected by the current trust system as that sounds like a conspiracy theory at best.
The funny thing is merely giving examples was the only thing it took to start a years long flame war with one of these people resulting in exactly this type of harassment. It doesn't have to be some kind of mafia, but that doesn't mean it isn't. It can be as simple as an organic clique of users actively suppressing those going against their plans, or even publicly questioning them.
Please now, lets not act like people doing shady backhanded things to each other here is an uncommon occurrence. You need to call it a conspiracy theory to try to make my claim look fantastical and unrealistic when it is pretty obvious how it can be abused.
A bad actor gets control of 1 or more highly ranked accounts, does their conning, if anyone tries to point it out they can simply make them look like a scam artist themselves or just mob them and mass report them until they get banned. I have personally experienced it MULTIPLE times, and I KNOW I am not the only one. The problem is if you have no ratings well you are just a scammer, and if you do have good ratings, well now you have something they can leverage against you.
Here's how the voting would work if it were performed right now. The first one comes after all of the other criteria, and is then fed into the second.
-snip-
Nice work, although I believe that the number of people that will understand the process will drop by over 90%. -snip-
Gotta respect the effort involved.
Here's how the voting would work if it were performed right now. The first one comes after all of the other criteria, and is then fed into the second.
-snip-
Nice work, although I believe that the number of people that will understand the process will drop by over 90%. -snip-
Here's how the voting would work if it were performed right now. The first one comes after all of the other criteria, and is then fed into the second.
Code:
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I have 214 earned merits. Let's assume I have included 30 persons in my trust list. How will system choose my vote, I mean by which criteria, since I have capability of voting for 21 member. How someone from my 30 members will be excluded/included?
Right now only 1 person in your trust list is eligible at that point in the DT1 generation process (namely Coolcryptovator), so it doesn't matter. In the vast majority of cases, it's like this, where there is no contention at all. If there is contention, then the system tries to distribute the votes such that the greatest number of people would be included in DT1 at the end. If there's still contention (or if my algorithm behaves sub-optimally), then it's chosen randomly among the remaining options. But this is a bit rare: if DT1 was constructed now, no randomness would be involved, since all contention would be resolvable without it.
I think it will be choosen by either the members trust score or whom most of the people have included.
For example, if someone has 20 earned merits and includes 3 member in trust list, system will check among those 3 member who has been included by most others person. Assume, I have 20 earned merit and included A, B, C in my trust list. Anyone from this 3 will be excluded by-
Assume-
A- trusted by 20 members
B- trusted by 11 members
C- trusted by 15 members.
Then my vote will go for A and C, B will be excluded.
Is that correct, can someone confirm?
For example, if someone has 20 earned merits and includes 3 member in trust list, system will check among those 3 member who has been included by most others person. Assume, I have 20 earned merit and included A, B, C in my trust list. Anyone from this 3 will be excluded by-
Assume-
A- trusted by 20 members
B- trusted by 11 members
C- trusted by 15 members.
Then my vote will go for A and C, B will be excluded.
Is that correct, can someone confirm?
In that case your vote doesn't matter, since they're all above 10. If it was instead:
A- trusted by 20
B- trusted by 9
C- trusted by 9
Then your votes would go to B and C, since that would result in the greatest number of people in DT1.
Guys what do I do with the Trust?
I tried to find the truth in the topic, but it is not interesting to anyone ...
Lauda and Tman simply added bad confidence to me, and I think they agreed ... so that there is no one to influence them (
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5096004.new#new
I tried to find the truth in the topic, but it is not interesting to anyone ...
Lauda and Tman simply added bad confidence to me, and I think they agreed ... so that there is no one to influence them (
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5096004.new#new
If he add more then 10 person then admin/sript will choose the candidate randomly. Seems theymos had edited OP with new updates.
It's not random, imo. If it was random, theymos would not say "whom your vote will be most useful." Each user's number of "votes" in the last two criteria will be limited to floor(earned_merit / (10 or 250, depending on the criteria)). If you trust more people than your limit, then you will vote for the people to whom your vote will be the most useful, more-or-less.
I think it will be choosen by either the members trust score or whom most of the people have included.
For example, if someone has 20 earned merits and includes 3 member in trust list, system will check among those 3 member who has been included by most others person. Assume, I have 20 earned merit and included A, B, C in my trust list. Anyone from this 3 will be excluded by-
Assume-
A- trusted by 20 members
B- trusted by 11 members
C- trusted by 15 members.
Then my vote will go for A and C, B will be excluded.
Is that correct, can someone confirm?
I might help out and spend a day thinking about it but the explanation from the graph is a bit confusing.
Can you dumb it down even further? Just a short description of what are the inputs exactly, and how do you want the output. Better if it's just an example with 5 users or something.
Can you dumb it down even further? Just a short description of what are the inputs exactly, and how do you want the output. Better if it's just an example with 5 users or something.
G = (U, V, E) is a bipartite graph with edges from the left side, U, to the right side, V. There are N vertices in U and M vertices in V. A "capacity" function c: U -> Z is defined for every vertex in U. A constant integer "target value" T exists.
Candidate solutions are subgraphs S = (US, VS, ES) of G satisfing the following requirements:
1. For each vertex u in US, the number of edges attached to u must be less than or equal to c(u).
2. For each vertex v in VS, the number of edges attached to v must be greater than or equal to T.
Find an S such that the number of vertices in VS is maximal.
Example:
Note that this graph is depicted as directed, but that doesn't actually matter.
Note:
- To satisfy requirement #1, you must exclude at least two of (u1, v1) or (u1, v3) or (u1, v4).
- To satisfy requirement #1, you must exclude at least one of (u2, v1) or (u2, v2).
- To satisfy requirement #1, you must exclude at least one of (u3, v1), (u3, v2) or (u3, v3)
- To satisfy requirement #2, you must exclude at least v4 (since it cannot possibly get T=2 edges), and possibly more depending on the rest of S.
In a very naïve greedy algorithm, you might just fill up vertices on the right from top to bottom until you can't do anything else. That'd give a candidate solution of:
(u1, v1)
(u2, v1)
This is a valid candidate solution, but it's non-optimal because it includes only 1 vertex in V whereas 2 are possible. In order to achieve an optimal solution, you need some backtracking, at least. In this case there are two equally-good optimal solutions:
(u1, v3)
(u3, v3)
(u2, v2)
(u3, v2)
or:
(u1, v1)
(u3, v1)
(u2, v2)
(u3, v2)
It becomes more complicated as the graph gets bigger.
Writing it down in this way reminds me a lot of the stable marriage problem, which gives me hope that it can be solved exactly.
If I understand the last update of theymos, each 10 earned merit holder can vote 1 person only. So if someone earned 100 merit he can vote 10 person only. If he add more then 10 person then admin/sript will choose the candidate randomly. Seems theymos had edited OP with new updates.
Sound like decentralization, and it's right decision. Now trust system can't be manipulate easily. And DT1 list will perfect now as I believe.
Sound like decentralization, and it's right decision. Now trust system can't be manipulate easily. And DT1 list will perfect now as I believe.
Correct. The idea is that you shouldn't be worrying about that. Include people whose judgement you trust. The vote should reflect trust relationships and not be manipulated directly. I kinda wanted the same thing (fine-grained control of voting) earlier in the thread but now I'm thinking that's not that important. We'll see how it works in the next round.
And will not such a system lead to a reduction of trust lists to 2-3 people, for whom (and only for whom) I would like to vote at some stage?
I don't know if it will. I'm not changing my trust list because of that. Someone with fewer votes might consider that but I think they would be doing themselves a disservice by not including people useful for their day-to-day forum usage (trust ratings etc) and focusing on the vote with a very low chance of putting someone they like into DT1. It's possible that some people will try to change their trust lists temporarily just before theymos recreates DT1. I think all these manipulations will have very little effect in the grand scheme of things but I have no data to support that opinion.
For example, someone wants his voice exactly got User10 and User11. It removes all participants from its trust list (from User1 to User9) and leaves only User10 and User11.
Trust lists will be reduced to a very narrow circle. Perhaps it would be more correct if the user could specify for whom he 250-votes and 10-votes?
I don't think it's very difficult to implement:
Trust lists will be reduced to a very narrow circle. Perhaps it would be more correct if the user could specify for whom he 250-votes and 10-votes?
I don't think it's very difficult to implement:
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satoshi
theymos
qwk
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xandry
Vadi2323
klarki
10-TheFuzzStone
dariloff
10-poptop
be.open
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I have 214 earned merits. Let's assume I have included 30 persons in my trust list. How will system choose my vote, I mean by which criteria, since I have capability of voting for 21 member. How someone from my 30 members will be excluded/included?
Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.
When building your trust list, I tend to encourage people not to worry about little details like this, and instead just think about the system in broad strokes. If this results in poor outcomes, then that's a problem on my end.
Whoever needs your vote the most gets it. It depends on who is on your list, not the order of their placements.
I.e. I can't determine who needs my 2 votes? And also I don't know who got my 2 votes in the end?
Correct. The idea is that you shouldn't be worrying about that. Include people whose judgement you trust. The vote should reflect trust relationships and not be manipulated directly. I kinda wanted the same thing (fine-grained control of voting) earlier in the thread but now I'm thinking that's not that important. We'll see how it works in the next round.
Correct. The idea is that you shouldn't be worrying about that. Include people whose judgement you trust. The vote should reflect trust relationships and not be manipulated directly. I kinda wanted the same thing (fine-grained control of voting) earlier in the thread but now I'm thinking that's not that important. We'll see how it works in the next round.
And will not such a system lead to a reduction of trust lists to 2-3 people, for whom (and only for whom) I would like to vote at some stage?
Whoever needs your vote the most gets it. It depends on who is on your list, not the order of their placements.
I.e. I can't determine who needs my 2 votes? And also I don't know who got my 2 votes in the end?
Correct. The idea is that you shouldn't be worrying about that. Include people whose judgement you trust. The vote should reflect trust relationships and not be manipulated directly. I kinda wanted the same thing (fine-grained control of voting) earlier in the thread but now I'm thinking that's not that important. We'll see how it works in the next round.
Whoever needs your vote the most gets it. It depends on who is on your list, not the order of their placements.
I.e. I can't determine who needs my 2 votes? And also I don't know who got my 2 votes in the end?
If I have 20 earned Merit do I vote for only 2 people? And these 2 people will be chosen from my list of 20 people? For example, the first in my list are satoshi and theymos (to determine the order of users in the list I can not). Then they get one vote for 10 Merit and the rest get nothing? Am I right?
Whoever needs your vote the most gets it. It depends on who is on your list, not the order of their placements. Each user's number of "votes" in the last two criteria will be limited to floor(earned_merit / (10 or 250, depending on the criteria)).
So for example, someone with 518 earned merits could cast up to 2 votes in the 250-merit criteria and up to 51 votes in the 10-merit criteria, if I'm getting this right.
Someone with 72 earned merits could cast up to 7 votes in the 10-merit criteria and obviously none in the 250.
If I have 20 earned Merit do I vote for only 2 people? And these 2 people will be chosen from my list of 20 people? For example, the first in my list are satoshi and theymos (to determine the order of users in the list I can not). Then they get one vote for 10 Merit and the rest get nothing? Am I right?
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