Author

Topic: DefaultTrust changes - page 123. (Read 86349 times)

legendary
Activity: 3654
Merit: 8909
https://bpip.org
January 11, 2019, 04:11:37 PM
It CAN be verified manually.

How?

You speak as if in the current state, you can verify anything at all in trust ratings?

You can check the reference link and other proof presented in the feedback and everyone can decide on their own what level of verification is needed/acceptable.
sr. member
Activity: 952
Merit: 452
Check your coin privilege
January 11, 2019, 03:12:28 PM
@theymos No comment on this suggestion? I have a nice graph too
-snip-
Using amount risked in any calculation does not work for several reasons:

1) It can't be verified, thus it can be easily abused.
2) Sometimes users want to keep amounts private.


It CAN be verified manually. You speak as if in the current state, you can verify anything at all in trust ratings? It's impossible to fix that problem, people can just neg/positively trust each other and unless there's another person that verifies that trust behind the scenes it may as well go undetected. And I quote from that exact same post :

3) Positive trust for reasons other than trading.

Is that really a bad thing? Name one reason where you would want to red tag someone without bias, that doesn't involve money.

It can easily be fixed by setting a default non-zero number for trust ratings that don't involve risked amounts, which is completely fine imo because any trust rating that isn't exactly this : "How much money I trust this user with", is honestly just a biased opinion that is the whole cause of why the first trust system is being binned.

EDIT : Regardless of how important I think risked amounts are, if @theymos would rather start with a less complex system first then you might as well just remove risked amounts, my system is still solid. The concept is similar to what he wants to do but won't require an exponential amount of time to calculate compared to the intractability of the current way on how he wants to calculate trust. If the list starts to have numbers in the triple digits, Trust will actually stop being updated instantly just because of the time needed to calculate propagation through the tree.
legendary
Activity: 3654
Merit: 8909
https://bpip.org
January 11, 2019, 03:03:54 PM
I thought that I had a good idea for limiting each individual truster when handling the last two criteria: set it up as a circulation problem as below, and then find the maximum flow. The "user tX"s through whom flow passes would be the DT1s selected.

https://i.imgur.com/JFDH3Qg.png

(The orders of the users would be randomized on each run.)

There are efficient algorithms for maximizing the flow in problems similar to this, which is why thinking about it in this way occurred to me. However, it turns out that the "exactly 0 or exactly 10" requirement on the rightmost edges makes finding an exact solution too difficult.

I might try to write an algorithm for finding an approximate solution to this, but I probably won't get to it in the near future. Anyone else want to give it a try? You might also be able to structure it as a knapsack problem or something else, but I haven't gotten around to thinking about that yet.

Crap, I wish I had paid more attention in my CS classes. No recollection of max flow whatsoever. Google is extremely unhelpful. So what's the range for X and how does it depend on merit? Can it be negative? How big is N - that's only users who have custom trust lists, right? I feel like I'm missing something obvious here.
full member
Activity: 211
Merit: 125
busting the bastards
January 11, 2019, 02:57:55 PM
This appears to be a fundamental change in DT. I'd love to see how it plays out against scammers in the long run.
member
Activity: 364
Merit: 13
Killing Lightning Network with a 51% Ignore attack
January 11, 2019, 02:57:47 PM
I would be willing to bet a couple BTC that Vod and actmyname are not the same person.

You called Hhampuz an ass-kisser for enjoying the change in Default Trust, which is baffling to me; everyone who approves of the change is an ass-kisser?
It's easy to make a monster out of the person calling you on your nonsense, but in reality (where the rest of us are) it's more likely than not something about your behavior and personality that is accumulating so much distaste. You're experiencing something along the lines of delusional referencing.

Similar to a young man that is unable to get laid, it's not everybody else, so let's stop pretending.

Well you lose that BTC, because actmyname=vod

Dude, you have no idea of my true mindset, so keep your bad dime store shrink analyses to yourself, because frankly you're not very good at it.



 Cool



Could you link your other accounts, please? I won't do anything, pinkyswear!


Sure

ZIN - ZANG

There you go dumbass.  Cheesy

You think I would have been as peeved, if I was using multiple account like all of you lauda bitches.
Doubtful.
I would have just dropped this one and used the others.
But since I am not cheating and stealing from people like you guys, one account name to speak my mind was all I needed.

 Cool
legendary
Activity: 3038
Merit: 6194
Meh.
January 11, 2019, 02:55:39 PM
I would be willing to bet a couple BTC that Vod and actmyname are not the same person.

You called Hhampuz an ass-kisser for enjoying the change in Default Trust, which is baffling to me; everyone who approves of the change is an ass-kisser?
It's easy to make a monster out of the person calling you on your nonsense, but in reality (where the rest of us are) it's more likely than not something about your behavior and personality that is accumulating so much distaste. You're experiencing something along the lines of delusional referencing.

Similar to a young man that is unable to get laid, it's not everybody else, so let's stop pretending.

Well you lose that BTC, because actmyname=vod

Dude, you have no idea of my true mindset, so keep your bad dime store shrink analyses to yourself, because frankly you're not very good at it.



 Cool



Could you link your other accounts, please? I won't do anything, pinkyswear!
member
Activity: 364
Merit: 13
Killing Lightning Network with a 51% Ignore attack
January 11, 2019, 02:52:52 PM
I would be willing to bet a couple BTC that Vod and actmyname are not the same person.

You called Hhampuz an ass-kisser for enjoying the change in Default Trust, which is baffling to me; everyone who approves of the change is an ass-kisser?
It's easy to make a monster out of the person calling you on your nonsense, but in reality (where the rest of us are) it's more likely than not something about your behavior and personality that is accumulating so much distaste. You're experiencing something along the lines of delusional referencing.

Similar to a young man that is unable to get laid, it's not everybody else, so let's stop pretending.

Well you lose that BTC, because actmyname=vod

Dude, you have no idea of my true mindset, so keep your bad dime store shrink analyses to yourself, because frankly you're not very good at it.



 Cool

legendary
Activity: 2674
Merit: 3000
Terminated.
January 11, 2019, 02:47:46 PM
@theymos No comment on this suggestion? I have a nice graph too
-snip-
Using amount risked in any calculation does not work for several reasons:

1) It can't be verified, thus it can be easily abused.
2) Sometimes users want to keep amounts private.
3) Positive trust for reasons other than trading.
sr. member
Activity: 952
Merit: 452
Check your coin privilege
January 11, 2019, 02:40:38 PM
@theymos No comment on this suggestion? I have a nice graph too


---

That's why you need to read the ratings and/or use custom trust lists.

If you don't like the trust system, set your own trust list. I still haven't done it, because I prefer to see users as most people see them. But feel free to start promoting custom trust lists, if enough people agree, DT will become less powerful.

It's a good idea but a shame that so many people promote custom trust lists to solve a problem that shouldn't exist in the first place.

If the majority agrees that DT is a select group of people that might not reflect the true list of actual most trusted people in the forum, then doesn't keeping DT as it is make it even more of a problem? Custom lists might look like they're solving the problem, but they're really not because the majority of the forum uses default trust. So in the end you're going to be living in your own echo chamber by removing default trust from your list, because you're completely oblivious to how everyone else actually sees you.

I'd say it depends on the situation. I've received some positive trust for being helpful. I don't think that's "worse" than someone who receives positive trust  after a few small trades with DT-members. In fact, it took me many years to get this (and I appreciate the appreciation), while it's quite easy to gain trust by doing a few trades.

This can easily be fixed if the risked amount is also taken into account (Why is it there in the first place if it's not?). In my opinion, someone with a few trades is more trusted than someone who posts all day on the forums, because at the end of the day, someone who had money risked through their hands means that they're not tempted to scam at least that much. Of course, account rank also comes into play, because a legendary hero wouldn't scam someone off a few dozen bucks simply because their account is worth more through sig campaigns.

Actually, using just 3 variables :
1. Account rank
2. Account current trust
3. Amount risked

I can come up with a system that won't depend on a centralized default trust, and at the same time gets updated in real time depending on member's trust over time :



If any of these 3 members get negative trust, then all their network is going to have less trust points because that person becomes shady.
If User 1 has biased vendetta against User 2, because there's a risked amount variable then baseless claims will have little effect.
This can't be spammed using multiple accounts because newbie ranks and risked amounts are too little to matter.

So in the end the only issue becomes actually verifying that the trust, risked amounts, and if the trades actually happened. Which wouldn't be a hard task because you'd only need to check people with a suspiciously high amount of trust.

This cliché of me pitching up ideas is getting rather old, is btctalk hiring? Cheesy
legendary
Activity: 1386
Merit: 1123
January 11, 2019, 02:30:02 PM
I would be willing to bet a couple BTC that Vod and actmyname are not the same person.

You called Hhampuz an ass-kisser for enjoying the change in Default Trust, which is baffling to me; everyone who approves of the change is an ass-kisser?
It's easy to make a monster out of the person calling you on your nonsense, but in reality (where the rest of us are) it's more likely than not something about your behavior and personality that is accumulating so much distaste. You're experiencing something along the lines of delusional referencing.

Similar to a young man that is unable to get laid, it's not everybody else, so let's stop pretending.
member
Activity: 364
Merit: 13
Killing Lightning Network with a 51% Ignore attack
January 11, 2019, 01:59:47 PM
Your sweet-talk seems fake, shoo retard.
Ah, you are so correct! I shan't have a contrary position against only theymos. The true path towards a fair system is for every reply to be of dissent, rejection and to throw the pittance of virtue signalling out of this existence! Our qualms needn't be sullied by the burden of agreement, nay, reality demands contradiction. It demands chaos!

So I declare unto you: no. I disagree with your opinion.

I expect nothing else from one of lauda's bitches.

Anyone else also know you are vod?

 Cool
copper member
Activity: 2562
Merit: 2510
Spear the bees
January 11, 2019, 01:56:42 PM
Your sweet-talk seems fake, shoo retard.
Ah, you are so correct! I shan't have a contrary position against only theymos. The true path towards a fair system is for every reply to be of dissent, rejection and to throw the pittance of virtue signalling out of this existence! Our qualms needn't be sullied by the burden of agreement, nay, reality demands contradiction. It demands chaos!

So I declare unto you: no. I disagree with your opinion.
member
Activity: 364
Merit: 13
Killing Lightning Network with a 51% Ignore attack
January 11, 2019, 01:53:28 PM
cough cough ASS KISSER.
Finally, someone speaks the truth!

It behooves all of Bitcointalk to develop a contrarian opinion against theymos, for dissent is king when it comes to debate. No more shall this wretched king reign supreme, striking down all contrary opinions. No more shall we see any agreement towards this malevolent ruler! Down with theymos! Down with theymos!

Your sweet-talk seems fake, shoo retard.

 Cool

copper member
Activity: 2562
Merit: 2510
Spear the bees
January 11, 2019, 01:47:47 PM
cough cough ASS KISSER.
Finally, someone speaks the truth!

It behooves all of Bitcointalk to develop a contrarian opinion against theymos, for dissent is king when it comes to debate. No more shall this wretched king reign supreme, striking down all contrary opinions. No more shall we see any agreement towards this malevolent ruler! Down with theymos! Down with theymos!
member
Activity: 364
Merit: 13
Killing Lightning Network with a 51% Ignore attack
January 11, 2019, 01:44:07 PM
I thought that I had a good idea for limiting each individual truster when handling the last two criteria: set it up as a circulation problem as below, and then find the maximum flow. The "user tX"s through whom flow passes would be the DT1s selected.

~snip

(The orders of the users would be randomized on each run.)

There are efficient algorithms for maximizing the flow in problems similar to this, which is why thinking about it in this way occurred to me. However, it turns out that the "exactly 0 or exactly 10" requirement on the rightmost edges makes finding an exact solution too difficult.

I might try to write an algorithm for finding an approximate solution to this, but I probably won't get to it in the near future. Anyone else want to give it a try? You might also be able to structure it as a knapsack problem or something else, but I haven't gotten around to thinking about that yet.

I like this. Seems to be the correct way (If possible to make it work) to make it as decentralized as possible. I'll patiently sit back and see if we have any Mr. Robots that can take it on  Grin

cough cough ASS KISSER.


 Cool

legendary
Activity: 3038
Merit: 6194
Meh.
January 11, 2019, 01:38:24 PM
I thought that I had a good idea for limiting each individual truster when handling the last two criteria: set it up as a circulation problem as below, and then find the maximum flow. The "user tX"s through whom flow passes would be the DT1s selected.

~snip

(The orders of the users would be randomized on each run.)

There are efficient algorithms for maximizing the flow in problems similar to this, which is why thinking about it in this way occurred to me. However, it turns out that the "exactly 0 or exactly 10" requirement on the rightmost edges makes finding an exact solution too difficult.

I might try to write an algorithm for finding an approximate solution to this, but I probably won't get to it in the near future. Anyone else want to give it a try? You might also be able to structure it as a knapsack problem or something else, but I haven't gotten around to thinking about that yet.

I like this. Seems to be the correct way (If possible to make it work) to make it as decentralized as possible. I'll patiently sit back and see if we have any Mr. Robots that can take it on  Grin
member
Activity: 364
Merit: 13
Killing Lightning Network with a 51% Ignore attack
January 11, 2019, 01:25:39 PM
Anyone else want to give it a try?

Yes , Delete the whole DT system , run it that way for a year

It serves no real purpose and stops no one from getting scammed.

Example my red score is high, and I have never traded any coins with anyone on this crap show.

Or rename the Default Trust to what it truly is,  
Elites Opinion to Censor Speech and Block Rival Services


 Cool
administrator
Activity: 5222
Merit: 13032
January 11, 2019, 01:18:12 PM
I thought that I had a good idea for limiting each individual truster when handling the last two criteria: set it up as a circulation problem as below, and then find the maximum flow. The "user tX"s through whom flow passes would be the DT1s selected.



(The orders of the users would be randomized on each run.)

There are efficient algorithms for maximizing the flow in problems similar to this, which is why thinking about it in this way occurred to me. However, it turns out that the "exactly 0 or exactly 10" requirement on the rightmost edges makes finding an exact solution too difficult.

I might try to write an algorithm for finding an approximate solution to this, but I probably won't get to it in the near future. Anyone else want to give it a try? You might also be able to structure it as a knapsack problem or something else, but I haven't gotten around to thinking about that yet.
member
Activity: 364
Merit: 13
Killing Lightning Network with a 51% Ignore attack
January 11, 2019, 12:47:22 PM
I don't know how many 250+ receivers there are, but if someone is on a mission to get onto DT I guess there will be some stalking/favor currying going on to meet this (and other) criteria.
They'll be the bouncers at the DT club.
Until now there are 146 members who have reached 250 earned merits.For more info https://bpip.org/report.aspx?r=mostmerited


Considering Theymos handed out merits like candy, that were never earned, that is as much a sham as the DT system.


 Cool

member
Activity: 546
Merit: 32
January 11, 2019, 12:45:29 PM
I don't know how many 250+ receivers there are, but if someone is on a mission to get onto DT I guess there will be some stalking/favor currying going on to meet this (and other) criteria.
They'll be the bouncers at the DT club.
Until now there are 146 members who have reached 250 earned merits.For more info https://bpip.org/report.aspx?r=mostmerited
~snip~
You beat me with 9 seconds. Shocked
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