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Topic: Discussion about 10,000BTC Bet (Official) - page 55. (Read 104454 times)

hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
All investments are bets. All bets are investments. All bets and investments are gambles. Bets, investments, gambling games all have in common the uncertainty of a payout. Accurately assessing that uncertainty, or risk, is very difficult and in many cases practicably impossible. If you were able to assess the risk and reward correctly though it wouldn't matter what investment vehicle you invested in. As long as you had a very wide portfolio and the expected return better than zero, you'd be ahead.

I agree with everything except all bets are investments. What, exactly, are you investing in at the craps table?
donator
Activity: 980
Merit: 1000
Guys, investments and bets are not the same thing. You're both confusing a "gamble" with "risk". Gambling is risky, but risk is not a gamble. Gambling involves blind luck. When you walk across a tight rope, you're risking your life, but it's hardly blind luck. Anyone making this bet is basically blindly gambling. If you invested in pirate without even bothering to research his business model, find out his info, etc, you're also basically gambling, but only -you-. Others who invested in him may not be gambling, they may be just taking risk. I am taking a risk with this bet. I believe I know what he's doing and I believe it is not a ponzi. I am taking a risk of being wrong, but to me it is hardly "dumb luck". That said, since I have absolutely no control or even influence on payment, I admit that I could succumb to dumb bad luck and lose on a shit technicality (couldn't make it to the bank on time, lost his password, electricity cuts out, tornadoes takes out his house, any number of things).

You're forgetting the "eventuality" that he already did as much as saying publicly that he won't pay in full in any case, and interests are frozen violating his original terms and thus your bet.
donator
Activity: 2058
Merit: 1007
Poor impulse control.
Guys, investments and bets are not the same thing. You're both confusing a "gamble" with "risk". Gambling is risky, but risk is not a gamble. Gambling involves blind luck. When you walk across a tight rope, you're risking your life, but it's hardly blind luck. Anyone making this bet is basically blindly gambling. If you invested in pirate without even bothering to research his business model, find out his info, etc, you're also basically gambling, but only -you-. Others who invested in him may not be gambling, they may be just taking risk. I am taking a risk with this bet. I believe I know what he's doing and I believe it is not a ponzi. I am taking a risk of being wrong, but to me it is hardly "dumb luck". That said, since I have absolutely no control or even influence on payment, I admit that I could succumb to dumb bad luck and lose on a shit technicality (couldn't make it to the bank on time, lost his password, any number of things).

From a math standpoint, it doesn't matter if the investment is a "gamble" or just "risky" If you know the probability and variability of return, you can put a value on the bet/investment.

If you calculate a probability of a payout succeeding an then find after losing an investment that you'd missed some vital information, that doesn't mean the investment model is wrong, just the the risk assessment process was.

All investments are bets. All bets are investments. All bets and investments are gambles. Bets, investments, gambling games all have in common the uncertainty of a payout. Accurately assessing that uncertainty, or risk, is very difficult and in many cases practicably impossible. If you were able to assess the risk and reward correctly though it wouldn't matter what investment vehicle you invested in. As long as you had a very wide portfolio and the expected return better than zero, you'd be ahead.
hero member
Activity: 588
Merit: 500
Hero VIP ultra official trusted super staff puppet
Guys, investments and bets are not the same thing. You're both confusing a "gamble" with "risk". Gambling is risky, but risk is not a gamble. Gambling involves blind luck. When you walk across a tight rope, you're risking your life, but it's hardly blind luck. Anyone making this bet is basically blindly gambling. If you invested in pirate without even bothering to research his business model, find out his info, etc, you're also basically gambling, but only -you-. Others who invested in him may not be gambling, they may be just taking risk. I am taking a risk with this bet. I believe I know what he's doing and I believe it is not a ponzi. I am taking a risk of being wrong, but to me it is hardly "dumb luck". That said, since I have absolutely no control or even influence on payment, I admit that I could succumb to dumb bad luck and lose on a shit technicality (couldn't make it to the bank on time, lost his password, electricity cuts out, tornadoes takes out his house, any number of things).
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
If you invest in multiple investments, in amounts inversely proportional to the level of risk, then in the long run you can expect a particular return (and, assuming you calculated the risk correctly, any difference is variance). If you assumed the investments never matured, it would make financial planning difficult.


A bet is not an investment. Especially one such as this. This is 100% risk. You're offering to pay out with only someone's word that they will pay. Reference my reply to Joel. One of those bets you can make reasonable assumptions on. One you cannot. Guess which one is which.

Every investment is a bet. Your estimation of this one is that it has 100% risk, meaning it is impossible that it will pay off. From your point of view there's no point investing at all and there is guaranteed to be no return.

No. 100% risk means nothing is guaranteed. You're right that every investment is a bet, but not every bet is an investment. In this case, especially, it can't be called an investment, except on Matt's end. He is investing a very large amount of money in his reputation (and Pirate's). Everyone else is risking smaller amounts of money, but no less their reputation.For what possible return? Double their money? If Matt's reputation doesn't tank, that is.

Matt loses his bet and pays out: He loses money, but gains reputation.
Matt loses his bet and doesn't pay out: He loses his reputation, but keeps his money.
Matt wins his bet: He gains money, and reputation

Seems a pretty good deal, if he has the money to lose.

Matt loses his bet and pays out: Everyone else gains a little money.
Matt loses his bet and doesn't pay out: Everyone else gains nothing, loses nothing. (Malinvestment based on this bet notwithstanding)
Matt wins his bet: Everyone else loses money or reputation

Yeah. I know a sucker bet when I see one. Matt's a frigging genius.
donator
Activity: 2058
Merit: 1007
Poor impulse control.
If you invest in multiple investments, in amounts inversely proportional to the level of risk, then in the long run you can expect a particular return (and, assuming you calculated the risk correctly, any difference is variance). If you assumed the investments never matured, it would make financial planning difficult.


A bet is not an investment. Especially one such as this. This is 100% risk. You're offering to pay out with only someone's word that they will pay. Reference my reply to Joel. One of those bets you can make reasonable assumptions on. One you cannot. Guess which one is which.

Every investment is a bet. Your estimation of this one is that it has 100% risk, meaning it is impossible that it will pay off. From your point of view there's no point investing at all and there is guaranteed to be no return. If you were really that certain, you coud make a killing selling risk insurance to the people that did make a bet with Matt. How certain are you?

hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
If you invest in multiple investments, in amounts inversely proportional to the level of risk, then in the long run you can expect a particular return (and, assuming you calculated the risk correctly, any difference is variance). If you assumed the investments never matured, it would make financial planning difficult.


A bet is not an investment. Especially one such as this. This is 100% risk. You're offering to pay out with only someone's word that they will pay. Reference my reply to Joel. One of those bets you can make reasonable assumptions on. One you cannot. Guess which one is which.
donator
Activity: 2058
Merit: 1007
Poor impulse control.
What you're saying here is that any venture that has it much riskier than average should never be expected to payout?

No, just that you should never risk what you're not prepared to lose, and if you lose it, accept the fact that you lost it, by taking a bad risk.

You're still considering risk a binary concept. It's not. Would you say the same statement about a venture with low risk? You need to define the risk you refer to in terms of the probability it will not pay. Then you can estimate how much to invest.

Risk may be a sliding scale, but results are binary. Either the risk pays off, or it doesn't.

And until it does, you have to act as though it will not. Any other course is inviting disaster.

How do you decide how much to invest in any given scheme then?

Standard risk/reward calculation. But I never risk more than I can afford to lose. I understand that I am taking a risk, and I may not be able to recoup it. I don't assume that anything I "have coming" will actually come.

A pessimist is never disappointed.

If you invest in multiple investments, in amounts inversely proportional to the level of risk, then in the long run you can expect a particular return (and, assuming you calculated the risk correctly, any difference is variance). If you assumed the investments never matured, it would make financial planning difficult.
full member
Activity: 150
Merit: 100
Thank you! Thank you! ...
What you're saying here is that any venture that has it much riskier than average should never be expected to payout?

No, just that you should never risk what you're not prepared to lose, and if you lose it, accept the fact that you lost it, by taking a bad risk.

You're still considering risk a binary concept. It's not. Would you say the same statement about a venture with low risk? You need to define the risk you refer to in terms of the probability it will not pay. Then you can estimate how much to invest.

Risk may be a sliding scale, but results are binary. Either the risk pays off, or it doesn't.

And until it does, you have to act as though it will not. Any other course is inviting disaster.

How do you decide how much to invest in any given scheme then?

Standard risk/reward calculation. But I never risk more than I can afford to lose. I understand that I am taking a risk, and I may not be able to recoup it. I don't assume that anything I "have coming" will actually come.

A pessimist is never disappointed.

Yes, never invest more than you are willing to lose. That's not pessimism, that's realism!
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
What you're saying here is that any venture that has it much riskier than average should never be expected to payout?

No, just that you should never risk what you're not prepared to lose, and if you lose it, accept the fact that you lost it, by taking a bad risk.

You're still considering risk a binary concept. It's not. Would you say the same statement about a venture with low risk? You need to define the risk you refer to in terms of the probability it will not pay. Then you can estimate how much to invest.

Risk may be a sliding scale, but results are binary. Either the risk pays off, or it doesn't.

And until it does, you have to act as though it will not. Any other course is inviting disaster.

How do you decide how much to invest in any given scheme then?

Standard risk/reward calculation. But I never risk more than I can afford to lose. I understand that I am taking a risk, and I may not be able to recoup it. I don't assume that anything I "have coming" will actually come.

A pessimist is never disappointed.
donator
Activity: 980
Merit: 1000
(Not that I think it matters. I would be quite literally stunned if Matthew defaults.)

You think he will pay?

I fully expect him to, but I wouldn't risk too much anyway.
donator
Activity: 2058
Merit: 1007
Poor impulse control.
What you're saying here is that any venture that has it much riskier than average should never be expected to payout?

No, just that you should never risk what you're not prepared to lose, and if you lose it, accept the fact that you lost it, by taking a bad risk.

You're still considering risk a binary concept. It's not. Would you say the same statement about a venture with low risk? You need to define the risk you refer to in terms of the probability it will not pay. Then you can estimate how much to invest.

Risk may be a sliding scale, but results are binary. Either the risk pays off, or it doesn't.

And until it does, you have to act as though it will not. Any other course is inviting disaster.

How do you decide how much to invest in any given scheme then?
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
What you're saying here is that any venture that has it much riskier than average should never be expected to payout?

No, just that you should never risk what you're not prepared to lose, and if you lose it, accept the fact that you lost it, by taking a bad risk.

You're still considering risk a binary concept. It's not. Would you say the same statement about a venture with low risk? You need to define the risk you refer to in terms of the probability it will not pay. Then you can estimate how much to invest.

Risk may be a sliding scale, but results are binary. Either the risk pays off, or it doesn't.

And until it does, you have to act as though it will not. Any other course is inviting disaster.
donator
Activity: 2058
Merit: 1007
Poor impulse control.
What you're saying here is that any venture that has it much riskier than average should never be expected to payout?

No, just that you should never risk what you're not prepared to lose, and if you lose it, accept the fact that you lost it, by taking a bad risk.

You're still considering risk a binary concept. It's not. Would you say the same statement about a venture with low risk? You need to define the risk you refer to in terms of the probability it will not pay. Then you can estimate how much to invest.
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
What you're saying here is that any venture that has it much riskier than average should never be expected to payout?

No, just that you should never risk what you're not prepared to lose, and if you lose it, accept the fact that you lost it, by taking a bad risk.
hero member
Activity: 868
Merit: 1000
I disagree. It's that reliance that lost you money. A bet is a risk. You should never rely on a risk paying off.
The reliance is a direct consequence of the bet. Whether or not you "should" do it is irrelevant. The fact is that many people did do and did it as a direct result of the bet.
No. Everyone is responsible for his own acts.

Matthew never forced anyone to not sell his pirate debt or buy pirate debt to "hedge" the bet.

What you're saying is the road to collectivism, to serfdom, this idea that one can blame others for his own mistakes.
That is complete insanity.

Say I own a catering service. I contract with a shrimp supplier to provide me 150 pounds of shrimp on a particular date at a particular price. Are you saying I shouldn't rely on the supplier to provide me that shrimp? What should I do? Should I also buy 150 pounds of shrimp at the grocery store in case the shrimp supplier doesn't deliver the shrimp?

If the supplier just chooses not to provide me with the shrimp and I wind up being unable to do the catering job, are you saying that's my own fault for relying on the shrimp supplier and that I'm responsible for my own acts?

The whole reason we make agreements with other people is so that we can rely on them! That's the benefit we obtain and that's what we're paying for.

I'm not talking about blaming others for one's own mistakes. I'm talking about blaming people for not doing what they promised to do and the damages proximately caused by us relying on them to do what they promised to do.

Quote
Personal responsibility is hard for some people. I get that. Doesn't make trying to blame other people for your bad decisions any more acceptable.
When the "bad decision" was trusting someone else to keep their word, you absolutely should blame the other person.

(Not that I think it matters. I would be quite literally stunned if Matthew defaults.)


Actually you're right, when I think of it, trust is the essence of capitalism. I trust my employer to pay my check, or i'll be in the forest hunting already.
But still, you can blame someone for not keeping his word, but not consequences  of your own acts, regardless of the reason you made them.

You have to draw a line, adn I think the line is your own act.
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
I disagree. It's that reliance that lost you money. A bet is a risk. You should never rely on a risk paying off.
The reliance is a direct consequence of the bet. Whether or not you "should" do it is irrelevant. The fact is that many people did do and did it as a direct result of the bet.
No. Everyone is responsible for his own acts.

Matthew never forced anyone to not sell his pirate debt or buy pirate debt to "hedge" the bet.

What you're saying is the road to collectivism, to serfdom, this idea that one can blame others for his own mistakes.
That is complete insanity.

Say I own a catering service. I contract with a shrimp supplier to provide me 150 pounds of shrimp on a particular date at a particular price. Are you saying I shouldn't rely on the supplier to provide me that shrimp? What should I do? Should I also buy 150 pounds of shrimp at the grocery store in case the shrimp supplier doesn't deliver the shrimp?

Ahh... You said the magic word. Let's compare these bets, shall we?

Matt's: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.1113117

Vandroiy's: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.1013589

Notice anything different about them?
donator
Activity: 2058
Merit: 1007
Poor impulse control.
But your bet with Matthew will lose you no money if he skips out on paying, you'll still have the money you "risked", just not the amount he promised you.
That's simply not true. If you relied on the bet and suffered a loss due to that reliance, then the bet lost you money.

I disagree. It's that reliance that lost you money. A bet is a risk. You should never rely on a risk paying off.

Not much point in risk analysis then.

What you're saying here is that any venture that has it much riskier than average should never be expected to payout? Then to you investments are binary:either risk free, or infinitely risky.

You can define a risk by how much belief you have in it paying off. Believing a risk will never pay off would mean you wouldn't invest in that venture.
legendary
Activity: 1596
Merit: 1012
Democracy is vulnerable to a 51% attack.
I disagree. It's that reliance that lost you money. A bet is a risk. You should never rely on a risk paying off.
The reliance is a direct consequence of the bet. Whether or not you "should" do it is irrelevant. The fact is that many people did do and did it as a direct result of the bet.
No. Everyone is responsible for his own acts.

Matthew never forced anyone to not sell his pirate debt or buy pirate debt to "hedge" the bet.

What you're saying is the road to collectivism, to serfdom, this idea that one can blame others for his own mistakes.
That is complete insanity.

Say I own a catering service. I contract with a shrimp supplier to provide me 150 pounds of shrimp on a particular date at a particular price. Are you saying I shouldn't rely on the supplier to provide me that shrimp? What should I do? Should I also buy 150 pounds of shrimp at the grocery store in case the shrimp supplier doesn't deliver the shrimp?

If the supplier just chooses not to provide me with the shrimp and I wind up being unable to do the catering job, are you saying that's my own fault for relying on the shrimp supplier and that I'm responsible for my own acts?

The whole reason we make agreements with other people is so that we can rely on them! That's the benefit we obtain and that's what we're paying for.

I'm not talking about blaming others for one's own mistakes. I'm talking about blaming people for not doing what they promised to do and the damages proximately caused by us relying on them to do what they promised to do.

Quote
Personal responsibility is hard for some people. I get that. Doesn't make trying to blame other people for your bad decisions any more acceptable.
When the "bad decision" was trusting someone else to keep their word, you absolutely should blame the other person.

(Not that I think it matters. I would be quite literally stunned if Matthew defaults.)
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
I disagree. It's that reliance that lost you money. A bet is a risk. You should never rely on a risk paying off.
The reliance is a direct consequence of the bet. Whether or not you "should" do it is irrelevant. The fact is that many people did do and did it as a direct result of the bet.

Again, no. The reliance is a direct consequence of your greed and/or stupidity. Vandroiy's bet is escrowed, with a trusted 3rd party. Matthew's is not. If he defaults and you lose money, that's not his fault. He should get the scammer tag, since that's the terms of the deal, but don't go chasing after him for the money you threw away thinking he would back you up.

Personal responsibility is hard for some people. I get that. Doesn't make trying to blame other people for your bad decisions any more acceptable.
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