DNotes 2.0 - Staking, CRISP Interest, DNotes Pay - page 290.

Dyna

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Quote from: Chase on September 19, 2017, 11:52:31 AM

Interesting results so far on a poll from Yahoo Finance:

That is very telling. For all practical purposes, we are at the infancy of a global paradigm shift that will take years to take its course. We are often over-conditioned for instant gratification - we want it here and now. "if it didn't happened; it is not happening" mentality.

We know that what is happening in our industry is very disruptive. There will be push-backs from some political leaders and big bankers. But digital currency is the future of money and no one is in the position to stop that.

Chase

legendary

Activity: 1638

Merit: 1005

Interesting results so far on a poll from Yahoo Finance:

Dyna

legendary

Activity: 1610

Merit: 1060

Great discussion on our current global financial systems. I think, we all can agree that it has already been stretched too thin. However, it is harder to predict when is the breaking point. Looking at past financial crises we can predict, with a high degree of certainty, that it will happen again. Based on the data shared on this forum, we are over-leveraged and reaching a point of no return. Consequently, nations (not just corporations) are resorting to creative accounting – “off balance sheet” and foot notes. Not a good sign.

Bitcoin and digital currencies, like DNotes, will continue to play a vital role as alternatives to fiat currencies and help avoid a sudden halt in economic activities (as in the recent case of Greece).

DNotes

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DNotes

Quote from: TeeGee on September 19, 2017, 01:11:07 AM

Quote from: TimMarsh on September 19, 2017, 12:42:07 AM

Quote from: TeeGee on September 19, 2017, 12:17:38 AM

Quote from: TimMarsh on September 18, 2017, 11:26:14 PM

Are you saying TeeGee, that wealthy Chinese might currently consider Bitcoin and cryptocurrencies a safe harbour or logical partial hedge against possible devaluation of the Chinese Yuan? I find it really curious that Bitcoin responds to financial markets so independently of fiat currency, and behaves more like precious metals or real estate than stocks or bonds.

I understand China being concerned that savings may be going elsewhere instead of into their banks if they're carrying $40 trillion in debt. But with bitcoin having a market cap of $66 billion. Even if Chinese investors diverted their money into bitcoin at its current price, it would be less than 0.16% of their carried debt. A literal one and a half millilitre drop in a litre bucket.

Bitcoin is beginning to be seen by many as worth taking a trading risk on in the face of market uncertainty. In the west negative economic news often correlates to bull runs in the price of gold and Bitcoin. In China it works a little differently because the PBOC peg the price of the Chinese Yuan (CNY) to the US dollar at a rate that is beneficial to their exporters, which means frequent devaluations that reduce the 'world value' of the wealth held by Chinese savers. This makes devaluations more predictable -- each time the Yuan becomes stronger relative to its neighbours, Chinese companies become less profitable, and they devalue again.

The problem for China would actually be much more significant than you calculated - because it is the precious savings, or the 2 trillion in "equity" supporting the loan system that is being invested into Bitcoin. China claims this number is 3 trillion, which happens to be the IMF minimum reserve adequacy. If you look at a 20/1 debt to equity ratio, the problem compounds at 20x what you calculated if savings are withdrawn to purchase BTC, and the new owner of the Yuan (CNY) does not put them back into bank saving accounts (potentially 40x if you want to compare to the liquid reserves). If people borrow to buy Bitcoin, it puts additional strain on the system because it is supported by such little equity, but only a fraction as much as savings exiting the banking system. It would mean that extra pressure is placed on the Chinese financial system, just to support Bitcoin's growth, which in turn creates even larger demand to borrow and place increased pressure on the system again.

One interesting question is why 'savers' buying bitcoin should matter much, given that if Yuan are swapped for BTC, the Yuan are still "in China", and are likely to just be put straight back into the bank (or never even leave the bank if the transfer is internal i.e. bank to bank).

Thanks TeeGee. The liquid ratio makes a lot more sense to me and I can see how that would have an impact.

As for money transfers between bitcoin buyers, Chinese exchanges, and banks, I find it hard to make sense of. I imagine a Chinese bitcoin buyer buys a bitcoin for 25,600 CNY, then the exchange hands over 1 BTC and puts 25,600 CNY in their bank. Then a year later, the Chinese investor buys 50,600 CNY with the same inflated bitcoin, where does the exchange get the extra 25,000 CNY from? I've never understood this.

It comes from the funds of other investors who have deposited money at the exchange's bank account. So another investor has fronted the additional 25,000 CNY, by depositing 50,600 CNY to purchase the original investors 1 BTC that they paid 25,600 for.

This is because exchanges have buyers and sellers. The buyers have CNY, and the sellers have Bitcoin (at the exchange in both cases). The exchange will only ever have as many CNY in their account as users deposit there, except that amount can stay constant, and the price of BTC could increase.

1 btc at the exchange, and 25,600 CNY

*Bitcoin price nearly doubles*

0.5 btc withdrawn for 50,600 CNY. There is 0.5 btc left on the exchange with no buyers. It is the rate that has changed, but that doesn't mean that all of the BTC can be sold at that rate. For the extra BTC to be sold, more people need to deposit money at the exchange.

The exchange in this case just facilitates trades between buyers and sellers, and takes a fee for each exchange. If you want to buy a bitcoin, and agree to the price of the seller, you would have to deposit that amount. Some exchanges operate their own reserves, in which they buy and sell from, in which case they have to manage their own risk of price fluctuations.

Dyna

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Activity: 1610

Merit: 1060

Quote from: steven.wasserman on September 18, 2017, 09:32:25 AM

Quote from: Dyna on September 15, 2017, 06:55:34 AM

Quote from: TimMarsh on September 15, 2017, 03:38:12 AM

Quote from: Dyna on September 14, 2017, 10:42:10 PM

Quote from: TeeGee on September 14, 2017, 10:05:19 PM

Thank you very much to Steve and the team at Vments for working with me on the interview.

Vments have a lot of fascinating content and product offerings listed at their website that have a high degree of potential to facilitate collaboration between Vments and DNotes in the future -- especially given our plan to integrate the frictionless means to convert DNotes or other crypto to merchant POS spending via fiat conversion. I could personally see the Vments ecosystem benefiting the DNotes multi-currency card and banking network in the following way, as I will outline one potential use case below.

Spending of cryptocurrency using the DNotes multi-currency *debit* card could trigger the following process:

Any crypto converted into DNotes via DNotes' decentralized exchange >
DNotes are converted into fiat through our regulated exchange (fiat gateway) >
USD transfer from the fiat gateway exchange into the DNotes bank >
Forwarding of funds from DNotes bank to partner bank accounts (nostro accounts)> (particular benefit here)
Forwarding of payment to local merchant that multi-currency card is used to make purchase of goods or services.

The process above would be designed to be seamless and near-instant, and Vments work in the area of inter-bank payment flows could massively benefit some of these processes - namely, inter-bank money flows in different countries. This could allow debits to be made from checking accounts with instant movement of funds across the entire process, rather than current 'credits' being made in lieu of physical money transfer as is the case with credit card systems today. This would allow users to avoid a lot of the fees common with credit card systems. Currently some projects allow for integration with the visa network to spend cryptocurrencies, the above model is different in that it brings the 'authentication', 'liquidity provider' / 'exchange' and 'banking' network under the same roof as the operators of the currency & card issuer, which means they can be more tightly integrated with more cost effective revenue models.

This is just an example of how such collaboration could work. There are many others.

Tim, that was an excellent interview. Steve has very high regards for DNotes and has been following us for quite a while. I have spoken to him and very impressed with what Vments has to offer. Although some collaborations in the future is very possible, we need to be mindful that anything to do with banking these days will that a long time to jump through a lot of legal hurdles. Especially because of the current market conditions, we will that our time to seek out the best opportunities and do things right.

I agree with Alan that this is definitely one to watch, while taking careful, sure steps as the ground beneath cryptocurrencies becomes more solid and predictable.

And I'm really glad that DNotes has such talent, including TeeGee to make sense of all of those buzz words used in the article. To me, the meanings of a lot of the terms were unfamiliar, but not entirely vague.

But what really caught my attention was, "At the core of the technology is Virtual Fiat Money (VFM) which flows through account types CommunityVcash and CommunityVcredit established by participating financial institutions in their local base currency."

I assumed that both of these were a permissioned blockchain cryptocurrency that is pegged to a particular currency. I then imagined it was used to symbolise a transfer of value in some way, but I really would like to know more about it. Like does this virtual fiat currency have a tag in the transaction saying which currency it is pegged to and the peg value? Do they actually buy the virtual fiat from Vments at the pegged currency rate and the Vments sell this back to the receiver as a different fiat currency according to the predetermined pegged value?

So much to think about, so I hope there is a follow up article with more concrete details once that information is ready for public disclosure. And again I wonder if this DNotes thread might be the most broadly informative thread on bitcointalk.org.

Thanks, Tim. Vments platform is a private and permissioned blockchain functional ecosystem and network of financial institutions.

I sometime see the decentralized world and the centralized world as two extremely ends of the spectrum. Neither one is perfect but each has massive potential. A bridge that can negotiate the gap in a well balanced manner can reap great rewards. That is what DNotes Global, Inc. is destined to become. It will take time and many great strategic moves, collaborations, and partnership.

Vments can enable peer to peer settlement with a merchant or vendor using its VFM (virtual fiat money) using an account denominated in DNotes (or any cryptocurrency) where the card/account issuers settle with the customer in the cryptocurrency and the fiat currency of the transaction is similar to current credit/debit card trans for a foreign currency transaction. The card/account issuer would have to acquired VFM of the currency they need to send to the merchant/vendor, but then collect in crypto from the card/account holder. The merchant/vendor can then redeem the VFM to their bank account, reuse it for other transactions, or exchange it for some other fiat or crypto currency. If the merchant/vendor is willing to accept the crypto, then the conversion to VFM is not necessary and they can either reuse the crypto or exchange it for some other fiat or crypto currency. The VFM would be minted by the bank that the card/account issuer uses for the settlement, including where the bank could be the card/account issuer and handle all of the applicable compliance that our software would help comply with.

Welcome to DNotes, Steve. Thank you for explaining how DNotes could work with Vments to process payment settlement in a peer to peer transaction. This could be a great opportunity for mid-sized and small banks to participate in the immense power of blockchain technologies. Feel free to ask any questions. Meanwhile, we wish you the best success.

TeeGee

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Quote from: TimMarsh on September 19, 2017, 12:42:07 AM

Quote from: TeeGee on September 19, 2017, 12:17:38 AM

Quote from: TimMarsh on September 18, 2017, 11:26:14 PM

Are you saying TeeGee, that wealthy Chinese might currently consider Bitcoin and cryptocurrencies a safe harbour or logical partial hedge against possible devaluation of the Chinese Yuan? I find it really curious that Bitcoin responds to financial markets so independently of fiat currency, and behaves more like precious metals or real estate than stocks or bonds.

I understand China being concerned that savings may be going elsewhere instead of into their banks if they're carrying $40 trillion in debt. But with bitcoin having a market cap of $66 billion. Even if Chinese investors diverted their money into bitcoin at its current price, it would be less than 0.16% of their carried debt. A literal one and a half millilitre drop in a litre bucket.

Bitcoin is beginning to be seen by many as worth taking a trading risk on in the face of market uncertainty. In the west negative economic news often correlates to bull runs in the price of gold and Bitcoin. In China it works a little differently because the PBOC peg the price of the Chinese Yuan (CNY) to the US dollar at a rate that is beneficial to their exporters, which means frequent devaluations that reduce the 'world value' of the wealth held by Chinese savers. This makes devaluations more predictable -- each time the Yuan becomes stronger relative to its neighbours, Chinese companies become less profitable, and they devalue again.

The problem for China would actually be much more significant than you calculated - because it is the precious savings, or the 2 trillion in "equity" supporting the loan system that is being invested into Bitcoin. China claims this number is 3 trillion, which happens to be the IMF minimum reserve adequacy. If you look at a 20/1 debt to equity ratio, the problem compounds at 20x what you calculated if savings are withdrawn to purchase BTC, and the new owner of the Yuan (CNY) does not put them back into bank saving accounts (potentially 40x if you want to compare to the liquid reserves). If people borrow to buy Bitcoin, it puts additional strain on the system because it is supported by such little equity, but only a fraction as much as savings exiting the banking system. It would mean that extra pressure is placed on the Chinese financial system, just to support Bitcoin's growth, which in turn creates even larger demand to borrow and place increased pressure on the system again.

One interesting question is why 'savers' buying bitcoin should matter much, given that if Yuan are swapped for BTC, the Yuan are still "in China", and are likely to just be put straight back into the bank (or never even leave the bank if the transfer is internal i.e. bank to bank).

Thanks TeeGee. The liquid ratio makes a lot more sense to me and I can see how that would have an impact.

As for money transfers between bitcoin buyers, Chinese exchanges, and banks, I find it hard to make sense of. I imagine a Chinese bitcoin buyer buys a bitcoin for 25,600 CNY, then the exchange hands over 1 BTC and puts 25,600 CNY in their bank. Then a year later, the Chinese investor buys 50,600 CNY with the same inflated bitcoin, where does the exchange get the extra 25,000 CNY from? I've never understood this.

It comes from the funds of other investors who have deposited money at the exchange's bank account. So another investor has fronted the additional 25,000 CNY, by depositing 50,600 CNY to purchase the original investors 1 BTC that they paid 25,600 for.

This is because exchanges have buyers and sellers. The buyers have CNY, and the sellers have Bitcoin (at the exchange in both cases). The exchange will only ever have as many CNY in their account as users deposit there, except that amount can stay constant, and the price of BTC could increase.

1 btc at the exchange, and 25,600 CNY

*Bitcoin price nearly doubles*

0.5 btc withdrawn for 50,600 CNY. There is 0.5 btc left on the exchange with no buyers. It is the rate that has changed, but that doesn't mean that all of the BTC can be sold at that rate. For the extra BTC to be sold, more people need to deposit money at the exchange.

TimMarsh

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Activity: 187

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Professional cryptocurrency writer incl DNotes.

Quote from: TeeGee on September 19, 2017, 12:17:38 AM

Quote from: TimMarsh on September 18, 2017, 11:26:14 PM

Are you saying TeeGee, that wealthy Chinese might currently consider Bitcoin and cryptocurrencies a safe harbour or logical partial hedge against possible devaluation of the Chinese Yuan? I find it really curious that Bitcoin responds to financial markets so independently of fiat currency, and behaves more like precious metals or real estate than stocks or bonds.

I understand China being concerned that savings may be going elsewhere instead of into their banks if they're carrying $40 trillion in debt. But with bitcoin having a market cap of $66 billion. Even if Chinese investors diverted their money into bitcoin at its current price, it would be less than 0.16% of their carried debt. A literal one and a half millilitre drop in a litre bucket.

Bitcoin is beginning to be seen by many as worth taking a trading risk on in the face of market uncertainty. In the west negative economic news often correlates to bull runs in the price of gold and Bitcoin. In China it works a little differently because the PBOC peg the price of the Chinese Yuan (CNY) to the US dollar at a rate that is beneficial to their exporters, which means frequent devaluations that reduce the 'world value' of the wealth held by Chinese savers. This makes devaluations more predictable -- each time the Yuan becomes stronger relative to its neighbours, Chinese companies become less profitable, and they devalue again.

The problem for China would actually be much more significant than you calculated - because it is the precious savings, or the 2 trillion in "equity" supporting the loan system that is being invested into Bitcoin. China claims this number is 3 trillion, which happens to be the IMF minimum reserve adequacy. If you look at a 20/1 debt to equity ratio, the problem compounds at 20x what you calculated if savings are withdrawn to purchase BTC, and the new owner of the Yuan (CNY) does not put them back into bank saving accounts (potentially 40x if you want to compare to the liquid reserves). If people borrow to buy Bitcoin, it puts additional strain on the system because it is supported by such little equity, but only a fraction as much as savings exiting the banking system. It would mean that extra pressure is placed on the Chinese financial system, just to support Bitcoin's growth, which in turn creates even larger demand to borrow and place increased pressure on the system again.

One interesting question is why 'savers' buying bitcoin should matter much, given that if Yuan are swapped for BTC, the Yuan are still "in China", and are likely to just be put straight back into the bank (or never even leave the bank if the transfer is internal i.e. bank to bank).

Thanks TeeGee. The liquid ratio makes a lot more sense to me and I can see how that would have an impact.

As for money transfers between bitcoin buyers, Chinese exchanges, and banks, I find it hard to make sense of. I imagine a Chinese bitcoin buyer buys a bitcoin for 25,600 CNY, then the exchange hands over 1 BTC and puts 25,600 CNY in their bank. Then a year later, the Chinese investor buys 50,600 CNY with the same inflated bitcoin, where does the exchange get the extra 25,000 CNY from? I've never understood this.

TeeGee

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Activity: 846

Merit: 535

Quote from: TimMarsh on September 18, 2017, 11:57:33 PM

Crypto-pay Button in Your Browser Will Change What Content Creators Offer Us

We've had a balance of power in media and particularly the Internet for a long time. Consumers want media entertainment for free. Advertisers want our attention. So we watch media, and read articles in exchange for a variety of advertising exposure.

But the public has also become more savvy about the power of advertising, and even those who don't care about the insidious influence, are getting tired of advertisements hogging screen space and interrupting their entertainment. But unless you're willing to subscribe to advertisement-free sources, there has been no other option. Possibly, a major cause of this situation is how expensive and difficult it is to make a financial transaction. This prohibits micro-payments of a similar value to the value of benefits advertisers get for our moment of attention.

But the W3C has been working on a browser based payment standard that incorporates cryptocurrency payment. This system could benefit from the fact that cryptocurrency transaction fees can be very low, and the currencies can be traded in fractions of a cent.

https://www.coindesk.com/bitcoin-browser-google-apple-move-adopt-crypto-compatible-api/

The standard has now matured to a stage where it is encouraging the development of APIs by merchants and financial institutions including cryptocurrency groups. This could herald a fundamental shift in the way media is consumed and as a result, the type of media that is provided.

At the moment, content creators are responding as much to the desires of potential advertisers as they are to the desires of the audience. This is because even if the audience really wants a product, if the advertiser won't partner up with its distribution, the content creator will get no income from it. Consider the number of Youtube content creators that were burnt when advertisers started demanding that their products were not displayed on channels with possibly offensive material, like those of comedians. Or consider how hard it would be to get advertisers in a blog about how advertising is making us buy products that we don't want.

But when efficient micropayments can be automated for our selected media channels, or we can hit a 'mini-pay' button instead of a thumbs-up for a more genuine expression of our support or gratitude, content creators will respond to completely different motivators. The direct connection between audience, payment, and creator will enable much more contentious points of view, and possibly much more offensive entertainment to be profitable.

Thanks for that Tim.

It is great to see this technology being adopted by browsers. I would hope that the browser doesn't have access to 'pull' funds from your wallet (pretty likely), nor include a special 'inbuilt' wallet. This would open up Google and Apple to seizing all the assets upon request by regulators. On the other side of this, it's certainly going to help cryptocurrency become mainstream, and make it so simple to reward/pay one another to the point that even our grandmothers can take part!

I know somebody actually who just launched an ICO (today) in www.circlesproject.io that seeks to work in this space, to reward content creators with crypto, by encouraging people to circulate their content and make it 'viral' with a payout system that rewards early circulators. The wider spread the content becomes, the more 'early circulators' of the content get rewarded (capped at 10% profit, before the next people are paid). 90% of the payments are given to content creators on Youtube through a browser app, with the other 10% going to a payout pool that rewards the circulators.

TeeGee

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Quote from: TimMarsh on September 18, 2017, 11:26:14 PM

Are you saying TeeGee, that wealthy Chinese might currently consider Bitcoin and cryptocurrencies a safe harbour or logical partial hedge against possible devaluation of the Chinese Yuan? I find it really curious that Bitcoin responds to financial markets so independently of fiat currency, and behaves more like precious metals or real estate than stocks or bonds.

I understand China being concerned that savings may be going elsewhere instead of into their banks if they're carrying $40 trillion in debt. But with bitcoin having a market cap of $66 billion. Even if Chinese investors diverted their money into bitcoin at its current price, it would be less than 0.16% of their carried debt. A literal one and a half millilitre drop in a litre bucket.

Bitcoin is beginning to be seen by many as worth taking a trading risk on in the face of market uncertainty. In the west negative economic news often correlates to bull runs in the price of gold and Bitcoin. In China it works a little differently because the PBOC peg the price of the Chinese Yuan (CNY) to the US dollar at a rate that is beneficial to their exporters, which means frequent devaluations that reduce the 'world value' of the wealth held by Chinese savers. This makes devaluations more predictable -- each time the Yuan becomes stronger relative to its neighbours, Chinese companies become less profitable, and they devalue again.

The problem for China would actually be much more significant than you calculated - because it is the precious savings, or the 2 trillion in "equity" supporting the loan system that is being invested into Bitcoin. China claims this number is 3 trillion, which happens to be the IMF minimum reserve adequacy. If you look at a 20/1 debt to equity ratio, the problem compounds at 20x what you calculated if savings are withdrawn to purchase BTC, and the new owner of the Yuan (CNY) does not put them back into bank saving accounts (potentially 40x if you want to compare to the liquid reserves). If people borrow to buy Bitcoin, it puts additional strain on the system because it is supported by such little equity, but only a fraction as much as savings exiting the banking system. It would mean that extra pressure is placed on the Chinese financial system, just to support Bitcoin's growth, which in turn creates even larger demand to borrow and place increased pressure on the system again.

One interesting question is why 'savers' buying bitcoin should matter much, given that if Yuan are swapped for BTC, the Yuan are still "in China", and are likely to just be put straight back into the bank (or never even leave the bank if the transfer is internal i.e. bank to bank).

TimMarsh

full member

Activity: 187

Merit: 100

Professional cryptocurrency writer incl DNotes.

Crypto-pay Button in Your Browser Will Change What Content Creators Offer Us

We've had a balance of power in media and particularly the Internet for a long time. Consumers want media entertainment for free. Advertisers want our attention. So we watch media, and read articles in exchange for a variety of advertising exposure.

But the public has also become more savvy about the power of advertising, and even those who don't care about the insidious influence, are getting tired of advertisements hogging screen space and interrupting their entertainment. But unless you're willing to subscribe to advertisement-free sources, there has been no other option. Possibly, a major cause of this situation is how expensive and difficult it is to make a financial transaction. This prohibits micro-payments of a similar value to the value of benefits advertisers get for our moment of attention.

But the W3C has been working on a browser based payment standard that incorporates cryptocurrency payment. This system could benefit from the fact that cryptocurrency transaction fees can be very low, and the currencies can be traded in fractions of a cent.

https://www.coindesk.com/bitcoin-browser-google-apple-move-adopt-crypto-compatible-api/

The standard has now matured to a stage where it is encouraging the development of APIs by merchants and financial institutions including cryptocurrency groups. This could herald a fundamental shift in the way media is consumed and as a result, the type of media that is provided.

At the moment, content creators are responding as much to the desires of potential advertisers as they are to the desires of the audience. This is because even if the audience really wants a product, if the advertiser won't partner up with its distribution, the content creator will get no income from it. Consider the number of Youtube content creators that were burnt when advertisers started demanding that their products were not displayed on channels with possibly offensive material, like those of comedians. Or consider how hard it would be to get advertisers in a blog about how advertising is making us buy products that we don't want.

But when efficient micropayments can be automated for our selected media channels, or we can hit a 'mini-pay' button instead of a thumbs-up for a more genuine expression of our support or gratitude, content creators will respond to completely different motivators. The direct connection between audience, payment, and creator will enable much more contentious points of view, and possibly much more offensive entertainment to be profitable.

TimMarsh

full member

Activity: 187

Merit: 100

Professional cryptocurrency writer incl DNotes.

Quote from: TeeGee on September 18, 2017, 09:30:01 PM

Quote from: Chase on September 18, 2017, 07:46:37 PM

The problem with cryptocurrency is that it is far too transparent to act as a global currency... lol.

Canada flagged as hidden $14 trillion credit bubble stokes global crisis fears

The world's top financial watchdog has uncovered $14 trillion of global dollar debt hidden in bank report ‘footnotes’

http://business.financialpost.com/news/economy/credit-bubble

Sounds like enron accounting to me... Huh

The patterns of world economic boom and busts have been one of my primary areas of study and interest for a decade. My criticism of the stability risks that result from money creation combined with fractional reserve lending are what led me to my involvement in cryptocurrency. It is my conviction that if we do things the right way, and get all of our ducks in a row, that we will be in a position to help by providing a trusted alternative in DNotes' ecosystem -- a faster, more secure, and convenient means of conducting payments and international trade at reduced cost.

Chinese banks, according to Kyle Bass, have more than $40 trillion in assets (size of credit system) held against just $2 trillion in equity (what the banks actually own as security for the 40 trillion loans), of which perhaps just $1 trillion is liquid reserves (more mobile money).

This is likely one of the major reasons that China have been trying to crack down on capital outflows that they think could destabilize the country (like Bitcoin) by wealthy Chinese, who are concerned about depreciation of their wealth by currency devaluation. People generally don't take action when the boat is sailing smoothly.

Are you saying TeeGee, that wealthy Chinese might currently consider Bitcoin and cryptocurrencies a safe harbour or logical partial hedge against possible devaluation of the Chinese Yuan? I find it really curious that Bitcoin responds to financial markets so independently of fiat currency, and behaves more like precious metals or real estate than stocks or bonds.

I understand China being concerned that savings may be going elsewhere instead of into their banks if they're carrying $40 trillion in debt. But with bitcoin having a market cap of $66 billion. Even if Chinese investors diverted their money into bitcoin at its current price, it would be less than 0.16% of their carried debt. A literal one and a half millilitre drop in a litre bucket.

abused wens

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And proportional distribution absolutely fair for all.

TeeGee

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Quote from: Chase on September 18, 2017, 07:46:37 PM

The problem with cryptocurrency is that it is far too transparent to act as a global currency... lol.

Canada flagged as hidden $14 trillion credit bubble stokes global crisis fears

The world's top financial watchdog has uncovered $14 trillion of global dollar debt hidden in bank report ‘footnotes’

http://business.financialpost.com/news/economy/credit-bubble

Sounds like enron accounting to me... Huh

The patterns of world economic boom and busts have been one of my primary areas of study and interest for a decade. My criticism of the stability risks that result from money creation combined with fractional reserve lending are what led me to my involvement in cryptocurrency. It is my conviction that if we do things the right way, and get all of our ducks in a row, that we will be in a position to help by providing a trusted alternative in DNotes' ecosystem -- a faster, more secure, and convenient means of conducting payments and international trade at reduced cost.

Chinese banks, according to Kyle Bass, have more than $40 trillion in assets (size of credit system) held against just $2 trillion in equity (what the banks actually own as security for the 40 trillion loans), of which perhaps just $1 trillion is liquid reserves (more mobile money).

This is likely one of the major reasons that China have been trying to crack down on capital outflows that they think could destabilize the country (like Bitcoin) by wealthy Chinese, who are concerned about depreciation of their wealth by currency devaluation. People generally don't take action when the boat is sailing smoothly.

Chase

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Activity: 1638

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The problem with cryptocurrency is that it is far too transparent to act as a global currency... lol.

Canada flagged as hidden $14 trillion credit bubble stokes global crisis fears

The world's top financial watchdog has uncovered $14 trillion of global dollar debt hidden in bank report ‘footnotes’

http://business.financialpost.com/news/economy/credit-bubble

DCEBrief

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Activity: 1078

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Columbus GA Medical Clinic Now Accepting Bitcoin

https://dcebrief.com/columbus-ga-medical-clinic-now-accepting-bitcoin/

DNotes

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DNotes

Quote from: steven.wasserman on September 18, 2017, 09:32:25 AM

Quote from: Dyna on September 15, 2017, 06:55:34 AM

Quote from: TimMarsh on September 15, 2017, 03:38:12 AM

Quote from: Dyna on September 14, 2017, 10:42:10 PM

Quote from: TeeGee on September 14, 2017, 10:05:19 PM

Thank you very much to Steve and the team at Vments for working with me on the interview.

Vments have a lot of fascinating content and product offerings listed at their website that have a high degree of potential to facilitate collaboration between Vments and DNotes in the future -- especially given our plan to integrate the frictionless means to convert DNotes or other crypto to merchant POS spending via fiat conversion. I could personally see the Vments ecosystem benefiting the DNotes multi-currency card and banking network in the following way, as I will outline one potential use case below.

Spending of cryptocurrency using the DNotes multi-currency *debit* card could trigger the following process:

Any crypto converted into DNotes via DNotes' decentralized exchange >
DNotes are converted into fiat through our regulated exchange (fiat gateway) >
USD transfer from the fiat gateway exchange into the DNotes bank >
Forwarding of funds from DNotes bank to partner bank accounts (nostro accounts)> (particular benefit here)
Forwarding of payment to local merchant that multi-currency card is used to make purchase of goods or services.

The process above would be designed to be seamless and near-instant, and Vments work in the area of inter-bank payment flows could massively benefit some of these processes - namely, inter-bank money flows in different countries. This could allow debits to be made from checking accounts with instant movement of funds across the entire process, rather than current 'credits' being made in lieu of physical money transfer as is the case with credit card systems today. This would allow users to avoid a lot of the fees common with credit card systems. Currently some projects allow for integration with the visa network to spend cryptocurrencies, the above model is different in that it brings the 'authentication', 'liquidity provider' / 'exchange' and 'banking' network under the same roof as the operators of the currency & card issuer, which means they can be more tightly integrated with more cost effective revenue models.

This is just an example of how such collaboration could work. There are many others.

Tim, that was an excellent interview. Steve has very high regards for DNotes and has been following us for quite a while. I have spoken to him and very impressed with what Vments has to offer. Although some collaborations in the future is very possible, we need to be mindful that anything to do with banking these days will that a long time to jump through a lot of legal hurdles. Especially because of the current market conditions, we will that our time to seek out the best opportunities and do things right.

I agree with Alan that this is definitely one to watch, while taking careful, sure steps as the ground beneath cryptocurrencies becomes more solid and predictable.

And I'm really glad that DNotes has such talent, including TeeGee to make sense of all of those buzz words used in the article. To me, the meanings of a lot of the terms were unfamiliar, but not entirely vague.

But what really caught my attention was, "At the core of the technology is Virtual Fiat Money (VFM) which flows through account types CommunityVcash and CommunityVcredit established by participating financial institutions in their local base currency."

I assumed that both of these were a permissioned blockchain cryptocurrency that is pegged to a particular currency. I then imagined it was used to symbolise a transfer of value in some way, but I really would like to know more about it. Like does this virtual fiat currency have a tag in the transaction saying which currency it is pegged to and the peg value? Do they actually buy the virtual fiat from Vments at the pegged currency rate and the Vments sell this back to the receiver as a different fiat currency according to the predetermined pegged value?

So much to think about, so I hope there is a follow up article with more concrete details once that information is ready for public disclosure. And again I wonder if this DNotes thread might be the most broadly informative thread on bitcointalk.org.

Thanks, Tim. Vments platform is a private and permissioned blockchain functional ecosystem and network of financial institutions.

I sometime see the decentralized world and the centralized world as two extremely ends of the spectrum. Neither one is perfect but each has massive potential. A bridge that can negotiate the gap in a well balanced manner can reap great rewards. That is what DNotes Global, Inc. is destined to become. It will take time and many great strategic moves, collaborations, and partnership.

Vments can enable peer to peer settlement with a merchant or vendor using its VFM (virtual fiat money) using an account denominated in DNotes (or any cryptocurrency) where the card/account issuers settle with the customer in the cryptocurrency and the fiat currency of the transaction is similar to current credit/debit card trans for a foreign currency transaction. The card/account issuer would have to acquired VFM of the currency they need to send to the merchant/vendor, but then collect in crypto from the card/account holder. The merchant/vendor can then redeem the VFM to their bank account, reuse it for other transactions, or exchange it for some other fiat or crypto currency. If the merchant/vendor is willing to accept the crypto, then the conversion to VFM is not necessary and they can either reuse the crypto or exchange it for some other fiat or crypto currency. The VFM would be minted by the bank that the card/account issuer uses for the settlement, including where the bank could be the card/account issuer and handle all of the applicable compliance that our software would help comply with.

Steven, thanks for joining joining us on the DNotes forum. We are looking forward to explore how our platforms can work together and strategic partnerships in the future.

steven.wasserman

newbie

Activity: 1

Merit: 0

Quote from: Dyna on September 15, 2017, 06:55:34 AM

Quote from: TimMarsh on September 15, 2017, 03:38:12 AM

Quote from: Dyna on September 14, 2017, 10:42:10 PM

Quote from: TeeGee on September 14, 2017, 10:05:19 PM

Thank you very much to Steve and the team at Vments for working with me on the interview.

Vments have a lot of fascinating content and product offerings listed at their website that have a high degree of potential to facilitate collaboration between Vments and DNotes in the future -- especially given our plan to integrate the frictionless means to convert DNotes or other crypto to merchant POS spending via fiat conversion. I could personally see the Vments ecosystem benefiting the DNotes multi-currency card and banking network in the following way, as I will outline one potential use case below.

Spending of cryptocurrency using the DNotes multi-currency *debit* card could trigger the following process:

Any crypto converted into DNotes via DNotes' decentralized exchange >
DNotes are converted into fiat through our regulated exchange (fiat gateway) >
USD transfer from the fiat gateway exchange into the DNotes bank >
Forwarding of funds from DNotes bank to partner bank accounts (nostro accounts)> (particular benefit here)
Forwarding of payment to local merchant that multi-currency card is used to make purchase of goods or services.

The process above would be designed to be seamless and near-instant, and Vments work in the area of inter-bank payment flows could massively benefit some of these processes - namely, inter-bank money flows in different countries. This could allow debits to be made from checking accounts with instant movement of funds across the entire process, rather than current 'credits' being made in lieu of physical money transfer as is the case with credit card systems today. This would allow users to avoid a lot of the fees common with credit card systems. Currently some projects allow for integration with the visa network to spend cryptocurrencies, the above model is different in that it brings the 'authentication', 'liquidity provider' / 'exchange' and 'banking' network under the same roof as the operators of the currency & card issuer, which means they can be more tightly integrated with more cost effective revenue models.

This is just an example of how such collaboration could work. There are many others.

Tim, that was an excellent interview. Steve has very high regards for DNotes and has been following us for quite a while. I have spoken to him and very impressed with what Vments has to offer. Although some collaborations in the future is very possible, we need to be mindful that anything to do with banking these days will that a long time to jump through a lot of legal hurdles. Especially because of the current market conditions, we will that our time to seek out the best opportunities and do things right.

I agree with Alan that this is definitely one to watch, while taking careful, sure steps as the ground beneath cryptocurrencies becomes more solid and predictable.

And I'm really glad that DNotes has such talent, including TeeGee to make sense of all of those buzz words used in the article. To me, the meanings of a lot of the terms were unfamiliar, but not entirely vague.

But what really caught my attention was, "At the core of the technology is Virtual Fiat Money (VFM) which flows through account types CommunityVcash and CommunityVcredit established by participating financial institutions in their local base currency."

I assumed that both of these were a permissioned blockchain cryptocurrency that is pegged to a particular currency. I then imagined it was used to symbolise a transfer of value in some way, but I really would like to know more about it. Like does this virtual fiat currency have a tag in the transaction saying which currency it is pegged to and the peg value? Do they actually buy the virtual fiat from Vments at the pegged currency rate and the Vments sell this back to the receiver as a different fiat currency according to the predetermined pegged value?

So much to think about, so I hope there is a follow up article with more concrete details once that information is ready for public disclosure. And again I wonder if this DNotes thread might be the most broadly informative thread on bitcointalk.org.

Thanks, Tim. Vments platform is a private and permissioned blockchain functional ecosystem and network of financial institutions.

I sometime see the decentralized world and the centralized world as two extremely ends of the spectrum. Neither one is perfect but each has massive potential. A bridge that can negotiate the gap in a well balanced manner can reap great rewards. That is what DNotes Global, Inc. is destined to become. It will take time and many great strategic moves, collaborations, and partnership.

Vments can enable peer to peer settlement with a merchant or vendor using its VFM (virtual fiat money) using an account denominated in DNotes (or any cryptocurrency) where the card/account issuers settle with the customer in the cryptocurrency and the fiat currency of the transaction is similar to current credit/debit card trans for a foreign currency transaction. The card/account issuer would have to acquired VFM of the currency they need to send to the merchant/vendor, but then collect in crypto from the card/account holder. The merchant/vendor can then redeem the VFM to their bank account, reuse it for other transactions, or exchange it for some other fiat or crypto currency. If the merchant/vendor is willing to accept the crypto, then the conversion to VFM is not necessary and they can either reuse the crypto or exchange it for some other fiat or crypto currency. The VFM would be minted by the bank that the card/account issuer uses for the settlement, including where the bank could be the card/account issuer and handle all of the applicable compliance that our software would help comply with.

Dyna

legendary

Activity: 1610

Merit: 1060

Quote from: TeeGee on September 18, 2017, 05:33:29 AM

Quote from: TimMarsh on September 18, 2017, 01:51:51 AM

Quote from: Dyna on September 15, 2017, 07:39:30 AM

This is a sad day for our industry. There will be significant "weeding out" with many suffering significant losses. This is a major correction and will take time to digest.

It is most prudent to take a step back and let the dusk settle. No one can stop the industry from moving forward. My greatest fear is that it could lead to over-regulation that will stiflel innovations.

China's Bitcoin Exchanges Receive Shutdown Orders and Closure Timeline
Coindesk:
Sep 15, 2017 at 11:28 UTC by Tian Chuan & Rachel-Rose O'Leary
https://www.coindesk.com/document-lists-closure-steps-for-chinas-bitcoin-exchanges/
[...]
6. Exchanges shall save all user trading and holding data, and send it to local authorities immediately in DVDs.

I found it interesting that China wanted the exchanges to forward them information on DVDs. And I wondered if the Chinese exchanges were also expected to supply all of the customer's personal details. It has always surprised me that people hoped their transactions on the blockchain would remain anonymous despite the fact that all transactions are permanently public. A big spill of user data could be very informative. And it could also be used to write better algorithms for determining the probability of assigning particular transactions to people.

For example, it could show how strong correlations are between trading times, amounts, and recipient behaviour are with individuals. It could then group patterns into profiles and use these to detect with higher accuracy which addresses are owned by the same person.

As for the impact and correction caused by the news, I'm surprised it was so small and short-lived. From it's high point this week on September 12, at US$4,344 it steadily dropped until the announcements and news on the 15th. The morning of the 15th opened at 74% of the week's high point. Then during the day of the news and media circus about this issue, it actually climbed to 83% of the high point value.
Figures extracted from: https://coinmarketcap.com/currencies/bitcoin/

And if this shows you anything, I think it proves beyond reasonable doubt that bitcoin is not a bubble. The reason we use a bubble metaphor for artificially inflated investments isn't due to the inflation. It is due to the fact that when a bubble starts to pop, there is no recovery. Everybody playing the game rushes to be the faster rather than greater fool. But we didn't see a significant collapse that a bubble would predict. And then we saw a strong and fast recovery. So thanks China, my bubble concerns are gone. And I believe we might have seen a stronger recovery if Chinese money had felt safer to flow back into the system.

I agree that the industry as a whole is showing remarkable strength. Weak hands began to sell, and many in China heavily encouraged to do so, but a lot of people seem to have looked at this as a buying opportunity. The Chinese government have had somewhat of a tumultuous relationship with digital currencies -- frequently changing their public stance on what industry players can do there. For now, the world crypto economy can continue to grow without concern for what effects the decisions by Chinese officials may have on the world market.

The quick recovery surprised me. I am also surprised that there are still many ICOs going on. In the simplest term - there is a lot of greed and fear which can cut both ways.

Our industry will remain strong with rapid growth, and Bitcoin is not going away. However, I am concerned that this will lead to more regulations in the name of "consumer protection" and a tougher crack-down on ICOs.

TeeGee

hero member

Activity: 846

Merit: 535

Quote from: TimMarsh on September 18, 2017, 01:51:51 AM

Quote from: Dyna on September 15, 2017, 07:39:30 AM

This is a sad day for our industry. There will be significant "weeding out" with many suffering significant losses. This is a major correction and will take time to digest.

It is most prudent to take a step back and let the dusk settle. No one can stop the industry from moving forward. My greatest fear is that it could lead to over-regulation that will stiflel innovations.

China's Bitcoin Exchanges Receive Shutdown Orders and Closure Timeline
Coindesk:
Sep 15, 2017 at 11:28 UTC by Tian Chuan & Rachel-Rose O'Leary
https://www.coindesk.com/document-lists-closure-steps-for-chinas-bitcoin-exchanges/
[...]
6. Exchanges shall save all user trading and holding data, and send it to local authorities immediately in DVDs.

I found it interesting that China wanted the exchanges to forward them information on DVDs. And I wondered if the Chinese exchanges were also expected to supply all of the customer's personal details. It has always surprised me that people hoped their transactions on the blockchain would remain anonymous despite the fact that all transactions are permanently public. A big spill of user data could be very informative. And it could also be used to write better algorithms for determining the probability of assigning particular transactions to people.

For example, it could show how strong correlations are between trading times, amounts, and recipient behaviour are with individuals. It could then group patterns into profiles and use these to detect with higher accuracy which addresses are owned by the same person.

As for the impact and correction caused by the news, I'm surprised it was so small and short-lived. From it's high point this week on September 12, at US$4,344 it steadily dropped until the announcements and news on the 15th. The morning of the 15th opened at 74% of the week's high point. Then during the day of the news and media circus about this issue, it actually climbed to 83% of the high point value.
Figures extracted from: https://coinmarketcap.com/currencies/bitcoin/

And if this shows you anything, I think it proves beyond reasonable doubt that bitcoin is not a bubble. The reason we use a bubble metaphor for artificially inflated investments isn't due to the inflation. It is due to the fact that when a bubble starts to pop, there is no recovery. Everybody playing the game rushes to be the faster rather than greater fool. But we didn't see a significant collapse that a bubble would predict. And then we saw a strong and fast recovery. So thanks China, my bubble concerns are gone. And I believe we might have seen a stronger recovery if Chinese money had felt safer to flow back into the system.

I agree that the industry as a whole is showing remarkable strength. Weak hands began to sell, and many in China heavily encouraged to do so, but a lot of people seem to have looked at this as a buying opportunity. The Chinese government have had somewhat of a tumultuous relationship with digital currencies -- frequently changing their public stance on what industry players can do there. For now, the world crypto economy can continue to grow without concern for what effects the decisions by Chinese officials may have on the world market.

TimMarsh

full member

Activity: 187

Merit: 100

Professional cryptocurrency writer incl DNotes.

Quote from: Dyna on September 15, 2017, 07:39:30 AM

This is a sad day for our industry. There will be significant "weeding out" with many suffering significant losses. This is a major correction and will take time to digest.

It is most prudent to take a step back and let the dusk settle. No one can stop the industry from moving forward. My greatest fear is that it could lead to over-regulation that will stiflel innovations.

China's Bitcoin Exchanges Receive Shutdown Orders and Closure Timeline
Coindesk:
Sep 15, 2017 at 11:28 UTC by Tian Chuan & Rachel-Rose O'Leary
https://www.coindesk.com/document-lists-closure-steps-for-chinas-bitcoin-exchanges/
[...]
6. Exchanges shall save all user trading and holding data, and send it to local authorities immediately in DVDs.

I found it interesting that China wanted the exchanges to forward them information on DVDs. And I wondered if the Chinese exchanges were also expected to supply all of the customer's personal details. It has always surprised me that people hoped their transactions on the blockchain would remain anonymous despite the fact that all transactions are permanently public. A big spill of user data could be very informative. And it could also be used to write better algorithms for determining the probability of assigning particular transactions to people.

For example, it could show how strong correlations are between trading times, amounts, and recipient behaviour are with individuals. It could then group patterns into profiles and use these to detect with higher accuracy which addresses are owned by the same person.

As for the impact and correction caused by the news, I'm surprised it was so small and short-lived. From it's high point this week on September 12, at US$4,344 it steadily dropped until the announcements and news on the 15th. The morning of the 15th opened at 74% of the week's high point. Then during the day of the news and media circus about this issue, it actually climbed to 83% of the high point value.
Figures extracted from: https://coinmarketcap.com/currencies/bitcoin/

And if this shows you anything, I think it proves beyond reasonable doubt that bitcoin is not a bubble. The reason we use a bubble metaphor for artificially inflated investments isn't due to the inflation. It is due to the fact that when a bubble starts to pop, there is no recovery. Everybody playing the game rushes to be the faster rather than greater fool. But we didn't see a significant collapse that a bubble would predict. And then we saw a strong and fast recovery. So thanks China, my bubble concerns are gone. And I believe we might have seen a stronger recovery if Chinese money had felt safer to flow back into the system.

Topic: DNotes 2.0 - Staking, CRISP Interest, DNotes Pay - page 290. (Read 148866 times)