Topic: DNotes 2.0 - Staking, CRISP Interest, DNotes Pay - page 292. (Read 148866 times)

Huge step backward, but still confident and committed to the future of digital currency.

I've suspected the claims of China's BTC volume being overstated, there are a couple articles out there on it too. Of course, volume at exchanges could be overstated as well. As far as I can tell, the largest exchanges are predominantly getting their traffic from the US and these exchanges seem to have more traffic than the predominantly Chinese exchanges.

The majority of the volume is in USD here: https://coinmarketcap.com/currencies/bitcoin/#markets

Most of the top exchanges traffic is predominantly from the US looking at both exchanges from coinmarketcap and  https://data.bitcoinity.org/markets/volume/30d?c=e&t=b

Some of the largest Chinese exchanges are OKCoin Houbi BTCChina
https://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/btcchina.com#trafficstats
21,000
https://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/okcoin.cn#trafficstats
6,400
https://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/huobi.com#trafficstats
9,700

Some of the highest volume exchanges bitfinex bitstamp and GDax/Coinbase
https://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/bitfinex.com#trafficstats
3,400 - Predominantly US
https://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/bitstamp.net#trafficstats
6,600 - Predominantly US
https://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/gdax.com#trafficstats
4,000 - Predominantly US
https://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/coinbase.com#trafficstats
600 - Predominantly US

PS the lower the number, the more traffic.

This particular data paints a very different picture, though not the whole picture I'm sure. This is about the same as when I first looked into that claim as well.

I think this is a perfect example of how NOT to protect your citizens. Instead of implementing reasonable regulations for the exchanges so the customer is protected, they are forcing these people to use one of the hundreds of shady exchanges that will be popping up in other countries looking to cash in on the Chinese government's blunder.

I can't remember exactly, but I believe over 90% of bitcoin's volume is from China, and I'm assuming any of the other high-volume coins are likely similar. It is going to be very painful for everyone, but especially them. I am very thankful that DNotes did not rush to get listed in China.

Question of the day (that we all know the answer to):  Why is it the Chinese government has no problem creating a global bitcoin mining monopoly, but refuses to let its citizens benefit from cryptocurrency?

This is a sad day for our industry. There will be significant "weeding out" with many suffering significant losses. This is a major correction and will take time to digest.

It is most prudent to take a step back and let the dusk settle. No one can stop the industry from moving forward. My greatest fear is that it could lead to over-regulation that will stiflel innovations.

China's Bitcoin Exchanges Receive Shutdown Orders and Closure Timeline
Coindesk:
Sep 15, 2017 at 11:28 UTC by Tian Chuan & Rachel-Rose O'Leary
https://www.coindesk.com/document-lists-closure-steps-for-chinas-bitcoin-exchanges/


China's bitcoin and cryptocurrency exchanges have received instruction that they will need to voluntarily shut down by September 15.

According to both leaked documents and statements from local exchange executives, issued on condition of anonymity, China’s regulators have now issued verbal directives indicating how they expect the businesses to wind down operations due to the fact that they are operating domestically without a formal license.

A document leaked on Chinese social media, translated below, lists a series of steps the exchanges must undergo during that closure. While not received directly by exchange executives surveyed, the document is reportedly consistent with verbal guidance.

Issued by the office of the Leading Group of Beijing Internet Financial Risks Remediation, the document outlines how exchanges will need to coordinate with local regulators following their announcements, listing how they should handle customer data and banking relationships.

Already, however, two exchanges – BTCC and ViaBTC – have announced their closure, both citing the regulatory statement issued by authorities on September 5.
BTCC, in the wake of the announcement, posted a series of tweets about user withdrawals, stating that they will be able to get their money out even after the September 30 closure date. In one of those tweets, the exchange suggested that users "withdraw their funds as quickly as possible."

While not all China-based exchanges have formally indicated that they will shut down, one exchange executive indicated that more announcements will be forthcoming in light of the order. Exchanges Huobi and OKCoin are said to have met with regulators today, and are expected to announce plans to shut down within hours.
Representatives from Huobi and OKCoin did not respond to requests for comment at press time.

The full translated document reads:

1. Before 20 September 6pm, exchanges shall come up with a detailed risk-free clearing plan, and send this plan to the office. Exchanges shall deal with their claims and liabilities properly, and insure that investors’ funds and virtual currencies are safe.

2. Before 20 September 6pm, exchanges shall determine a bank account, which will be used for depositing user funds. All other accounts in banks and other non-bank payment service providers shall be canceled and reported to the Business Management Department of People’s Bank of China.

3. Before 15 September midnight, exchanges shall publish closing announcements, and announce a schedule to stop the trading of all virtual currencies. New user registration shall be stopped immediately after the announcement.

4. Shareholders, controllers, executives, and core financial and technical staff of exchanges shall cooperate fully with authorities during the clearing, while staying in Beijing.

5. Exchanges shall report their developments daily to local authorities before the clearing is completed.

6. Exchanges shall save all user trading and holding data, and send it to local authorities immediately in DVDs.

The document is signed: The office of the Leading Group of Beijing Internet Financial Risks Remediation, Sept. 15, 2017

All times listed are Beijing local time.

Thanks, Tim. Vments platform is a private and permissioned blockchain functional ecosystem and network of financial institutions.

I sometime see the decentralized world and the centralized world as two extremely ends of the spectrum. Neither one is perfect but each has massive potential. A bridge that can negotiate the gap in a well balanced manner can reap great rewards. That is what DNotes Global, Inc. is destined to become. It will take time and many great strategic moves, collaborations, and partnership.

I agree with Alan that this is definitely one to watch, while taking careful, sure steps as the ground beneath cryptocurrencies becomes more solid and predictable.

And I'm really glad that DNotes has such talent, including TeeGee to make sense of all of those buzz words used in the article. To me, the meanings of a lot of the terms were unfamiliar, but not entirely vague.

But what really caught my attention was, "At the core of the technology is Virtual Fiat Money (VFM) which flows through account types CommunityVcash and CommunityVcredit established by participating financial institutions in their local base currency."

I assumed that both of these were a permissioned blockchain cryptocurrency that is pegged to a particular currency. I then imagined it was used to symbolise a transfer of value in some way, but I really would like to know more about it. Like does this virtual fiat currency have a tag in the transaction saying which currency it is pegged to and the peg value? Do they actually buy the virtual fiat from Vments at the pegged currency rate and the Vments sell this back to the receiver as a different fiat currency according to the predetermined pegged value?

So much to think about, so I hope there is a follow up article with more concrete details once that information is ready for public disclosure. And again I wonder if this DNotes thread might be the most broadly informative thread on bitcointalk.org.

Tim, that was an excellent interview. Steve has very high regards for DNotes and has been following us for quite a while. I have spoken to him and very impressed with what Vments has to offer. Although some collaborations in the future is very possible, we need to be mindful that anything to do with banking these days will that a long time to jump through a lot of legal hurdles. Especially because of the current market conditions, we will that our time to seek out the best opportunities and do things right.

Thank you very much to Steve and the team at Vments for working with me on the interview.

Vments have a lot of fascinating content and product offerings listed at their website that have a high degree of potential to facilitate collaboration between Vments and DNotes in the future -- especially given our plan to integrate the frictionless means to convert DNotes or other crypto to merchant POS spending via fiat conversion. I could personally see the Vments ecosystem benefiting the DNotes multi-currency card and banking network in the following way, as I will outline one potential use case below.

Spending of cryptocurrency using the DNotes multi-currency *debit* card could trigger the following process:

Any crypto converted into DNotes via DNotes' decentralized exchange >
DNotes are converted into fiat through our regulated exchange (fiat gateway) >
USD transfer from the fiat gateway exchange into the DNotes bank >
Forwarding of funds from DNotes bank to partner bank accounts (nostro accounts)> (particular benefit here)
Forwarding of payment to local merchant that multi-currency card is used to make purchase of goods or services.

The process above would be designed to be seamless and near-instant, and Vments work in the area of inter-bank payment flows could massively benefit some of these processes - namely, inter-bank money flows in different countries. This could allow debits to be made from checking accounts with instant movement of funds across the entire process, rather than current 'credits' being made in lieu of physical money transfer as is the case with credit card systems today. This would allow users to avoid a lot of the fees common with credit card systems. Currently some projects allow for integration with the visa network to spend cryptocurrencies, the above model is different in that it brings the 'authentication', 'liquidity provider' / 'exchange' and 'banking' network under the same roof as the operators of the currency & card issuer, which means they can be more tightly integrated with more cost effective revenue models.  

This is just an example of how such collaboration could work. There are many others.

https://dcebrief.com/steve-wasserman-vments-will-meet-incumbent-financial-services-demand-for-digital-innovation-in-an-environment-that-threatens-their-relevance/

Thanks, Brandon and Ken for keeping the forum engaged. This is a tough subject that easily leads one to subjective political views that can be argued either way.  I usually focus my time on other priorities and leave politics alone.

Having said that – I do agree that there is no perfect solution to governance. Blockchain technologies can be used effectively to supplement many governance issues, including voting, immutable time-stamped and record keeping, execution of rules and conditions, and many others. The governance of a coin edged in the blockchain is much more achievable than the governance of a nation.

Yes, having a deep knowledge on the subject is vitally important if one were to express a wise opinion or recommendation.

I too share the same hope for these new governance models correcting millenia of mass psychology and ingrained behavior, but am cautiously optimistic due to the fact that some people are natual leaders and others are helpless without direction.

I can think of a few instances where a government became more than  just how the people of a jurisdiction agree to cooperate, and quite often the only way to oust those illegitimates is through force. Government is supposed to be how the people agree to cooperate, but rarely works that way in practice. Some notable examples are British taxation on the American colonies, the UN co-opting money from national tax revenues without taxpayer approval, and any given dictator suppressing opposition or alternative thinking. The latter two are greatly the result of a closed media as you had mentioned.

The penthouse situation you described sound more like it's verging on mobocracy. But thankfully the penthouse owners always have the option of liquidating their assets, that's the beauty of living in a capitalistic society, you get to vote every day with your money.

I like the way Americas system of  governance is intended to run, as a series of power checks to ensure no one man gains absolute authority. But in my opinion this system has been degraded by leaders and groups who have colluded to vye for more power. Sometimes the power checks themselves will usurp even more power than the individual or entity they are trying to keep in check wields.

I do believe the DAO relinquished their impartiality when they decided to roll back the blockchain, due to their own error. There was no public discourse or appeal process. Whether it was the right decision or not is open to interpretation, but they decided on altering transaction history without any input (that I'm aware of, if there was please enlighten me). Some people didn't like that or saw opportunity for gain so they decided to support the original Ethereum (Ethereum Classic) instead of the version of Ethereum whose transaction history had been altered. The creation of a second Ethereum, to go along with the original Ethereum classic, has shown that power checks can arise naturally in a just system when someone takes things too far. When the ability to keep power in check is taken away, you no longer live in a just society.

Same goes for your point on media, people from all viewpoints deserve to have their message imparted through open and unbiased means. That way people have a diverse view of standpoints on an issue to help them make an more informed decision. But the conundrum then becomes, how much grease do you give to the squeaky wheels? You dont want their screams of 'victimized minor inconvenience' to drown out the quiet cries of those with pride, who are more likely to suffer real hardship in silence.

Strictly in my opinion, a major advantage DNotes has was the opportunity to study shortcomings of our competitors who rushed the market trying to gain first mover advantage. By taking into account potentially irreparable mistakes (such as software conflicts between new and old patches), listening carefully to wise members of the community, I will be disappointed if DNotes is not the fairest form of decentralized governance known to man.

Brandon, are you baiting me? I could talk about this for months. I believe we're both fascinated by the ability of automated self governing systems like bitcoin and the DAO models being explored on Ethereum. And I agree that there is huge potential for the lessons learned here to be applied in political governance.

Government is never anything more than how the people within its jurisdiction agree to cooperate. And there are advantages to its many different forms. I don't believe that democracy is the best form of government. And some forms of democracy don't even deserve the title. The democratic system in the United States is so dysfunctional that corporations and the financial elites determine policy and the voting public have no measurable effect.
https://journalistsresource.org/studies/politics/finance-lobbying/the-influence-of-elites-interest-groups-and-average-voters-on-american-politics

As I'm certain Alan would agree, any decision is only ever as good as the quality of information it was based on. When the public does not have all of the information, or the information is deliberately misleading, their decisions will be faulty. When independent media is being drowned out by corporate controlled media, and the government allows media ownership to fall into the hands of just a few people, the information people get is distorted and deceptive. Even a perfect democratic system will fail in such an environment.

But even when democracy functions perfectly, it favours the majority, not the optimum or the fair. I've been planning a short story based around a body corporate where the building has 95 normal units and 5 penthouses on the top. The penthouse owners also own a large number of the units and rent them out. For a long time, everyone paid the same body corporate fee. Then someone pointed out that most of the gardening cost was spent on the 5 penthouse gardens. Another person suspected that they use more water too, and pumping it up to the top was also costing everyone.

So one day, the body corporate that was usually controlled by the 5 penthouse elites had an AGM and failed to stack it properly with their renters. So a new board came in and made the 5 penthouse owners have to pay a greater percentage for their gardening, water pumping, security and more. Then the following year, they realised they could recover money lost in previous years, so increased the penthouse fee to be a much greater proportion of the body corporate cost. The five votes against it from the penthouse owners made no difference. Eventually it got to the stage where the 95 unit owners were making the 5 penthouse owners cover all of the body corporate costs, including a monthly free bar-b-que around the pool. That's democracy for you.

I like the idea of government being run by ministers who facilitate the will of the people. They are not voted in but are selected, like jury duty, for a two year period. Ministers always act as pairs, the one in their second year mentoring the one in their first year. They don't make decisions, they just facilitate the discussion and decision making process of the public. Not every body needs to vote on every issue, but you could if you wanted to. Voting rights on any issue or ministry can be delegated, and re-delegated.

So, I don't have time or enough background knowledge to vote on things the department of education are doing, but I trust Jack's opinion on education issues, so I delegate my vote to him. Homeless and disabled issues I delegate to Simon, who then delegates all of his votes to Mary. But I like to vote on cryptocurrency decisions myself.

While this system still depends heavily on the public having access to unbiased media, it would be a lot more functional than a democracy. And I feel like the best and most transparent way to manage vote delegation would be through blockchain technology. I even believe that all policy and policy changes could be managed more effectively through a DAO like blockchain structure.

My hope is that what is happening now with these emerging technologies will be the test bed for many different governance models. And as these models become more effective, the organisations that use them will become more successful. Then I hope that people will be able to slowly transfer some responsibilities of government into one of these tested systems. Gradually over time, more and more government functions would be transferred until all that is left is the diplomatic face to grin at cameras and light torches at Olympic games openings.

Indeed. I was going to cover his comments in a brief, but it's difficult to take him seriously when he issues one of these little rants. I understand that he genuinely loathes the very idea of Bitcoin, but I fail to see where he's made any coherent argument to bolster his claim that Bitcoin is a fraud. The idea that it's not a real thing because "eventually it will be closed" is just absurd. I know that he is betting that governments will eventually try to put a stop to digital currencies in an effort to protect their own currency interests - and he could be proven right in that regard - but that doesn't make Bitcoin a fraud.

Still, I can understand why he feels the need to occasionally stick his head out the window and yell at those kids on his lawn...

New Reports: North Korean Interest in Cryptocurrency Rising

https://dcebrief.com/new-reports-north-korean-interest-in-cryptocurrency-rising/

Just got around to watching the statment Jamie Dimon made that has bitcoiners up in arms, and while listening selectively I picked up a couple key quotes.

"Bitcoin can go to $100,000 per Bitcoin"

"My daughter bought some Bitcoin and it went up"

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=X8Sywc3ko_g

Well said. I too agree that there is no perfect solution to governance, but in my opinion when the DNotes model is deployed it will provide a much fairer way to negotiate the balance of power.

Off the top of my head: There is no perfect solution to governance that I can tell. I see governance as more of a tug of war where differing opinions cannot go too far one way or the other, to have the largest benefit to the most people. Thus the need for rules and governance and things like the bill of rights and the constitution, the three branches of government and so on. The question to me is how can it be applied to what exactly. Could it be utilized to allow people to give more input and help leadership make decisions? Could it be used to afford people leadership without political control, more like the DNotes model we are working on?

Great article. Though we believe in reasonable regulation, that is for those providing services utilizing the currency, and not of the currency itself.

What could be the potential implications of decentralized governance applied in a political setting? Although it may sound utopian at first to change the political status quo entirely by removing human judgement from the picture, we should never discount the stupidity of people who exploit too much freedom of choice. Case and point:

https://www.technologyreview.com/s/601111/why-microsoft-accidentally-unleashed-a-neo-nazi-sexbot/
https://qz.com/931170/boaty-mcboatface-began-as-an-internet-joke-but-is-now-the-name-of-a-british-submarine-working-on-serious-business/
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/swedish-train-named-trainy-mctrainface-public-vote-article-1.3345978

Another point should be made, are people ready to and/or capable of upholding the responsibility of freedom? All it takes to lose liberty in a completely free society is individual freedom infringing upon freedom of others, which takes away liberty from all.

Bank of Finland Economists: “Revolutionary” Bitcoin “Cannot be Regulated”

https://dcebrief.com/bank-of-finland-economists-revolutionary-bitcoin-cannot-be-regulated/

Thanks TimMarsh, TeeGee spent a good deal of time refining and simplifying the DNotesVault message while keeping all the important information intact. I'm glad to see you were able to point that out in your remarks.