Topic: Do we want to work with money regulators, or keep Bitcoin unregulated? - page 10. (Read 19192 times)

No it does not work like that. The value is dictated when the commodity or investment is sold for FIAT and then you pay income tax on that.

If you have Gold you do not pay tax until you SELL do you understand this? They do not send you a yearly bill on the commodities you hold only when you SELL.

So what you are saying is this - they will go round to every business in the country assigning values to items that they have no knowledge of and then demand tax. I can really see that happening.

Look man if you don't like bitcoins and insist on giving the State money for them to waste and fight illegal wars - that is your prerogative so just use dollars. The idea behind bitcoins was to change all this.

It's hard to know the extent to which most legislators are "out of touch" - their apparent stupidity always seems to work out in their favor (see link).

The irrelevant laws still give the State the ability to criminalize any target at will. I see the "seizure" of the Mt. Gox Dwolla accounts in this light. Others say that Gox should have known they were in violation of blah blah. Maybe so, but the US tax code, for example, is so opaque that not even the legislators know how big it is (and that's just one cluster of laws). How many laws did someone break today?... that's for the State to decide, whenever the mood strikes them.

Teaser: "So, depending on whom you ask, our elected representatives are of the opinion that this particular section of the United States Code is somewhere between 2,500 and 2,500,000 pages long."

http://www.trygve.com/taxcode.html

Put me down for "unregulated BTC".           

hahahaa.

You see, they CAN. They just create a value, write off the tax and then send you a bill. You cannot pay, you are being taken to court. You cannot pay up then, you go to jail and create interest. It just ruins your life.

You can pay but don't want to? Ah, they will just take it. Pressuring your bank, getting any other enforcement division to get into your house, blacklist accounts... all this funny stuff.

Exactly that - they can pass as much legislation as they want but if they can not enforce it then it is irrelevant. This just sums up nicely how far out of touch State legislators are - they have no understanding of the real world.

Both the US and Canadian governments have recently gone out of their way to "clarify" that they require taxes to be paid on all bartered goods. Presumably that is ridiculously unenforceable, but they have staked out the turf nonetheless.

You completely miss the point - only FIAT currencies can be taxed.

Like basically every other trade? The painting has some value, maybe your goods have some value. If this is small, nobody will care. In BTC, it is easy. There are daily lists, you get electronic receipts of sale on most places and every transaction can be looked up in the blockchain.

Basically, in the exchange society, the value of the painting has been created by the trade against goods and therefore the value of the painting is the value of the goods you just traded it for. The difference with a currency is simply putting a universal good against all other goods to indicate a more universal value.

Would you have to file your taxes in FIAT though? How could you do that considering the BTC USD price fluctuates. At every point of sale you would have to know the exact conversion rate.

You only have to declare what you took in FIAT or when you liquidate your BTC. If you do not liquidate you can not be taxed.

If I walk into a shop and I trade a painting that I created for some goods - how can you declare that? The value is in the eye of the beholder.

And business taking BTC will still have to file their taxes in Fiat, which means, it is still bound to Fiat. The exchanges provide the means for companies to take BTC in the first place.

Interesting point there sir.  In reality though commodities always have the same value - 1kg of Gold is 1kg of gold. What changes is the value of the FIAT currency and that is why you perceive Gold as fluctuating in price - its not - its the FIAT currency fluctuating.

Isn't that a speculative attack?

having "hopefully" quashed any rumours of bitcoin being regulated, by using the facts of the finacial reports which show they can only control the FIAT gates into bitcoin..

the best thing to do now is:


We cannot do anything about the FIAT exchange regulations.. after all FIAT is government property and so you got to play by their rules. but by finding less and less reasons to require FIAT. the less reliant on regulations bitcoin needs to be.

so in the future i see a couple fully licenced FIAT/BITCOIN exchanges for each country. and then a mass of businesses that never touch fiat.

remember guys bitcoin is OUR COUNTRY. we are all the president, we are all the congress, we are all the MP's and other political bodies that go into bitcoin. Other countries do not own bitcoin, so they cannot control it. so stop worrying about other countries regulating bitcoin. all they can do is regulate their own FIAT.

If one country regulate it, users just move their servers to another country. Bitcoin can be mortgaged for a loan in USD, and you get tax reduction for the loan interest  

Yep!

It has always seemed to be some kind of backward logic to me, if your company isn't making enough profit you should be removing ads from your website, not adding them, if your governments treasury is getting empty you should be decreasing taxes not increasing them and in the same way if terrorism is becoming widespread you should be promoting liberty, not enslaving people.

Now imagine a country going through a decade of this psychopathic behavior, wouldn't you enroll to defend your country from the foreign invaders?

From a government/authorities standpoint there are worse things that could happen crypto-currency wise, bitcoin is only just the very first manifestation of an established and working cryptocurrency with a sizable following and capitalization, but most people are fully aware of its shortcomings and weaknesses - and in fact working on improved implementations that could have a much bigger impact on globalization and adoption by black markets. With bitcoin, there's at least a public bitchoin to trace and validate transactions in a p2p network.

We shouldn't be submitting to regulations that don't apply to this new system. Bitcoin is not money. Bitcoin is memory. Those that seek to regulate it are applying old paradigms to one that is subtle yet truly revolutionary.

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/bitcoin-is-memory-234731

I thought the ethos of Bitcoin that it is detached from central banks and governments. Bitcoin was born out of the mayhem of 2008 caused by so called regulated FIAT currencies, and people here are suggesting that we should let them regulate bitcoins. Ill tell you what don't use them - use dollars or any other shite FIAT currency if you want to be regulated.

Did regulations protect anyone from that credit crisis? Millions of innocent people were robbed of their pensions, savings and jobs due to the actions of a few. Bitcoin was created to address this imbalance.

FIAT currencies only represent DEBT if all world debts were cleared there would be NO MONEY in circulation.

Why do you think there is inflation - to force you to store your money in a bank as the interest you receive offsets the loss through inflation. With deflation the opposite is true you do not need banks as your money would increase in value as time passes. If there were no banks there would be NO LOANS and therefore everything would be at a realistic price (Housing for example). The banks feed themselves please see them for what they are exploiters of the worst kind and the most vial and corrupt organisations this planet has ever seen.

Bitcoin is a weapon against the State - please understand this. What it will do is force governments to stop wasting unquantifiable sums and fighting illegal wars as they can not  "steal" your money at the source. They will have to offer value and services people actually want and are prepared to pay for without the threat of imprisonment just as any other business - in essence that is all they are.

People are going about this the wrong way - instead of trying to have a mechanism to exchange your bitcoins for DEBT (Fiat currencies) we should be pushing to remove FIAT from the whole procurement life cycle.

If you could buy food, clothes and other essentials with bitcoins it would nullify FIAT currencies. By exchanging Bitcoins for FIAT you are just strengthening FIAT currencies.

At the end of the day regulation of any kind will destroy Bitcoins - more than likely by poorly executed legislation implemented by cretins.

In the UK they can not even get large companies to pay TAX but the little man is fully exploited - at a basic rate including NI contributions the level of tax is 45% - Do you honestly believe that that is good value? That is regulation working for you right there.

This is why any regulation of any kind should be fought vigorously - if big business wants to join the party and play - it is by our rules and not theirs. Any concession would mean that the idea of bitcoins dies with it.

There is an opportunity here for each and every single one of you to build your own empire unhampered by Governments and regulation. If you want to open a business you can at this very moment, no pleading with the bank for merchant status or credit checks and all the other hoops they make you pay to jump through. They have no right to do that but we have been so brow beaten it is the norm.

Bitcoins were a stroke of genius enabling the common man to take control of his destiny and the creation of money.

Before people start saying - no one would pay taxes - you pay for food, you pay for clothes you would pay for state services if they represented any value - but they don't - for every £1 given to them only 30p actually is spent on the service the rest is just waste.