Topic: Do we want to work with money regulators, or keep Bitcoin unregulated? - page 7. (Read 19192 times)

Wow that is some trading skill there.

I'm not sure if those of you making the pencil/house barter comparison are aware of this real-world barter process.

"The website http://www.redpaperclip.com/ was created by Kyle MacDonald, a Canadian blogger who bartered his way from a single red paperclip to a house in a series of online trades over the course of a year."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_red_paperclip

It tends to complicate things.     

Exactly it is not a difficult concept to grasp.

a family member is an electrician. he gets paid in fiat and in favours. he also gets a cup of tea from some of the customers. no-where EVER has he had to claim the tea and biscuits or the occassional sandwich as part of his gross earnings.

when it comes to bartering. its common sense.

if a pencil has a value of under £$1 and was traded 1:1 against a house. then the values would instantly show that someone in the trade has made massive profit. and when they go to sell the house they would then have to pay tax on the profits minus the pencil cost.

now in real world bartaring most people find objects of similar value to trade against each other making a fair offer to each other so that both parties get what they want and both don't feel like they have been shafted. this is where no profit is made and thus no tax is needed to be paid.

now for some examples.
1)say i bought a car 4door for £$1000 and sold it for £$1000 no profit = no tax

2)say i bought a car 4door for £$1000 and swapped it for 2door car of similar value no profit = no tax

now taking example 2... lets say the 2door was a sports car that a father of a new born desperately wanted to get rid of due to needing back seat space for his newborn. and the 2 door was worth £$2000

in a 1:1 trade there has been some profit, and it will easily show up when person A sells the 2 door for cash, that is when tax will come into it.

so when you barter for things. look for items of similar value. that if you sold out as FIAT would not net you a profit.

and just like anything. if you make a FIAT profit. expect to pay tax

“There is a natural order to this world, and those who try to upend it do not fare well.” – from "Cloud Atlas"

Huh?  I suppose you could, if that's really what you want to do   Though tell me, what do commodities have to do with Bitcoin?  (Protip:  nothing)


And the commodity you're talking about is a    Here, i'll send you to the dictionary, vent there: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/commodity


Can we still be friends? 

I just came across this thread, great topic and I'm sure there is a lot of good conversation. I am going to post-and-run now, and then start reading the entire thread tonight.

The answer is: Of course we want to work with money regulators. We have to, as long as we want to have the ability to convert Bitcoins in to other currencies. If people just wanted to mine Bitcoins and then use them to buy things, without the recipient having the ability to convert the BTC into any other currency, then we wouldn't have to, and they wouldn't care about Bitcoins.

Bitcoin itself can't be regulated... other than by the laws of physics, as it is now. Bitcoin is Bitcoin, and will always be Bitcoin. Governments or industries can not change that, short of taking over control of 51%+ of the network's hash power. What can and has to be regulated is how citizens and companies convert BTC to other currencies. We are all regulated by the laws of some country or other, and the other currencies we use are regulated. We will never get a free pass to use a regulated currency like USD however we want, just because we are using Bitcoin on the other end.

The faster this occurs, the better it will be for the widespread adaptation of Bitcoin.


tl;dr is in bold

Man what is wrong with you? At the very top of the page it clearly states

"This article needs additional citations for verification."

So according to you I can have futures contract in plumbing?

try reading this

http://www.investopedia.com/terms/c/commodity.asp

You have posted the definition of an ECONOMIC COMMODITY not a COMMODITY

You clearly have no idea what you are talking about and are just wildly cutting and pasting any link you find.

I am not discussing this any further with you.

It's a direct quote from the page you linked to.

http://www.irs.gov/taxtopics/tc420.html

   What exactly are *you* reading there?

A service is a commodity. "Economic commodities comprise goods and services." --wikip.


You're simply wrong again.  
"Bartering is the trading of one product or service for another. Usually there is no exchange of cash. Barter may take place on an informal one-on-one basis between individuals and businesses, or it can take place on a third party basis through a modern barter exchange company." --you-know-who.

Yes, you really should have read the link before you posted it.

Before getting all sarcastic you should read the link you posted.

I can not fathom how a plumber exchanging services with someone has any relevance to a commodity.

Please explain how that is the case.

Also if the services traded are of equal value there is no net gain - therefore no profit. Business only pay tax on profit. Which bit of this do you not understand.

It is no wonder the IRS can mug off loads of people when they do not understand even the most basic elements of running a business.

hehe I like how you worded that 

You're 100% right

Edit: for the backyard lawyers:  http://www.irs.gov/taxtopics/tc420.html

OK here we go again.

Until you sell your bitcoins there is no tax to pay.

If you want to be a law abiding Joe and pay taxes when you legally don't even owe them any tax then fine.

Like any commodity you only pay when you convert the commodity to a FIAT currency. That is the law whatever way you want to play it.

The same way you pay taxes on your house -- not with your gutters, but with $$$.


Did i say anything about being a law-abiding citizen?  I didn't, and i'm not talking about what i want/don't want to do.  The law is not changed by my obeying or disobeying it.


No one's talking about maintenance.  Though if you want to cut against the grain, it sure helps to know which way it goes first.

How are you going to pay taxes with a car? Give the IRS a bumper or maybe a wing mirror?

OK don't use Bitcoins then - keep giving money to the State to bomb people on the other side of the world, waste vast unimaginable sums on nothing bail out banks and have no means to redress the balance.

That is your prerogative.

Read the whitepaper on Bitcoins.

Why are you even involved in the community if you just want to maintain the status quo - I do not understand your logic.

A business does not pay tax until it has a profit. It is really simple - if you have not sold the gold no matter how large you operation is - there is no tax to pay.

If you want to be a law-abiding Joe, you have to file for income tax just like anyone else.  Will you get on the IRS radar?  Not unless you're a large mining operation.  Will you be technically breaking the law by not filing?  Sure.


If i work for a car dealership and get a car a month instead of $$$, i don't need to pay taxes?

Not sure what you mean


Don't know about the other two, but no currency needs to get involved for the IRS to act against you -- You have land? You owe.  You changed Joe's plugs & he unclogged your sink?  You owe.  You owe in US currency, but you don't need to trade in it to owe.


How i wish that were true.  It's not.  You can trade in Monopoly money for all they care -- if you end up with value, they want their share.

 

Or stuff.  Fiat or stuff.  Otherwise Londoners would be paid in $$$ & New Yorkers in Pounds, and no one would have to pay tax.


As soon as the grocery stores can pay their suppliers in bitcoin, and their suppliers pay their suppliers with bitcoin, and turtles all the way down...