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Topic: Do you believe in god? - page 153. (Read 316068 times)

legendary
Activity: 1946
Merit: 1055
January 07, 2017, 10:46:56 AM

The Argument from Religion - A Transcendental Argument

Morality can’t be found from a scientific examination of nature. So if morality is not in nature it must be beyond nature – the supernatural.

Where does value come from? It’s not found in the world reduced to scientific facts. Nonetheless, it’s found in the world as we actually experience it. We find value in all sorts of things. We value our friendships, and hopefully at least some of our family members. We value certain books, films, projects, beautiful days, ‘nature,’ and music. So value exists. We experience it. A transcendental argument asks – what must the world be like for this experience to be possible? There must be more to the world than scientific facts. The value of the world that we discover must have its basis in something else.
...
Morality is invisible to science because science cannot see value. Anything invisible to science must either not exist at all, or it must be nonphysical. Our name for the nonphysical aspects of reality is the spiritual, i.e., the divine, transcendent, God.
...
There is remarkable agreement among those at the higher reaches of many world religions. High level Buddhists, Catholic monks, Kabbalists, Sufis, all describe ultimate reality in similar terms and much of what they say can be summed up in the cliché, ‘all is one.’

If all is one, then my treating you badly is really treating myself badly.
...


I disagree with the argument from religion and its transcendental argument. It is my belief that humans are intrinsically moral whilst they are at the same time completely natural. I reject a transcendental argument with its postulate of a non physical transcendence - this is a mere construct, a superfluous idea - without a direct basis in physical existence, which is what I believe is in fact the only existence that is, and reality and all it implies (see wiki for details) as well. The world is as it is in its natural state and this reality make morality possible. There is no other basis to have this moral value we find in humans. I name the nonphysical aspects of reality the emergent qualities of personhood. No need to interject metaphysical (imaginary) constructs here. We are indeed connected to each other in a network, but its all natural.




Any look at current events or recent history provides a powerful argument that humans are not intrinsically moral.

Religion and Progress

The greatest obstacle to human progress is not a technological hurdle but the evil inherent in ourselves. Humans have knowledge of good and evil and with this knowledge we often choose evil.

Collectivism exists because it employs aggregated force to limit evil especially the forms of evil linked to physical violence. Collectivism is expensive and inefficient but these inefficiencies are less than the cost of unrestrained individualism. Collectivism aggregates capital for the common good and we are far from outgrowing our need for this.

1.   Prehistory required the aggregation of human capital in the form of young warriors willing to fight to protect the tribe.
2.   The Agricultural Age required physical capital in the form of land ownership and a State to protect the land.
3.   The Industrial Age required the aggregation of monetary capital to fund large fixed capital investments and factories.

A farmer in the agricultural age could achieve some protection from theft and violence by arming himself. He could protect himself against a small hostile groups by forming defensive pacts with neighboring farmers. To defend against large scale organized violence, however, requires an army and thus a state.

In 1651 Thomas Hobbes argued for the merits of centralized monarchy. He believed that only absolute monarchy was capable of suppressing the evils of an unrestrained humanity. He described in graphic wording the consequences of a world without monarchy a condition he called the state of nature.

Quote
In such condition, there is no place for industry; because the fruit thereof is uncertain: and consequently no culture of the earth; no navigation, nor use of the commodities that may be imported by sea; no commodious building; no instruments of moving, and removing, such things as require much force; no knowledge of the face of the earth; no account of time; no arts; no letters; no society; and which is worst of all, continual fear, and danger of violent death; and the life of man, solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short. - Thomas Hobbes Leviathan

There may well have been a time in human history when the absolute monarchy of Hobbes was the best available government but Hobbes was writing at the end of that era. England had been transformed from a nation almost completely conquered by the Odin worshiping Great Heathen Army of 865 to a country that protected the legal rights of nobles in the Magna Carta of 1215 to a devoutly Christian nation that formalized the rights of judicial review for common citizens in the 1679 Habeas Corpus act. Hobbes had failed to appreciate the growth of moral capital that allowed for superior forms of government with increased freedom.

Our forefathers understood that it is morality and virtue that allows for freedom a lesson many today have forgotten.

Quote
"Only a virtuous people are capable of freedom. As nations become corrupt and vicious, they have more need of masters." - Benjamin Franklin

“Is there no virtue among us? If there be not, we are in a wretched situation. No theoretical checks, no form of government, can render us secure. To suppose that any form of government will secure liberty or happiness without any virtue in the people, is a chimerical idea. If there be sufficient virtue and intelligence in the community, it will be exercised in the selection of these men; so that we do not depend upon their virtue, or put confidence in our rulers, but in the people who are to choose them.” - James Madison

“Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports.” - George Washington

In human interactions we often face a choice between cooperation (reaching a mutually beneficial exchange) and defection (advancement of ourselves to the detriment of our fellow man). The nation state, police, and laws suppress physical violence but do nothing to maintain the morality and virtue that sustain freedom. Collectivism limits some avenues of defection while opening entire new possibilities. New opportunities for defection arise along the entire economic spectrum. Everything from special interest lobbying, to disability scammers, and on a larger scale our entire fiat monetary system are essentially forms of defection allowing the few to profit at the expense of the many. Nation state collectivism has allowed for the creation of great civilizations and yet is entirely unsustainable in its current form.

Quote
"our Western civilization is on its way to perishing. It has many commendable qualities, most of which it has borrowed from the Christian ethic, but it lacks the element of moral wisdom that would give it permanence. Future historians will record that we of the twentieth century had intelligence enough to create a great civilization but not the moral wisdom to preserve it." - A.W. Tozer

The perishing of Western civilization, however, does not mean fragmentation and collapse. Indeed in this instance the opposite appears to be true and collapse looks set to drive us via economic fundamentals and debt into a single world government paradigm for reasons discussed at length elsewhere.

The evolution of the social contract is a progressive climb to higher potential energy systems with increased degrees of freedom. The state of nature begat tribalism. Tribalism grew into despotism. Despotism advanced into monarchy. Monarchies were replaced by republics. It is likely that in the near future republics will be consumed by world government, and perhaps someday world government will evolve into decentralized government.

Each iteration has a common theme for each advance increases the number of individuals able to engage in cooperative activity while lowering the number of individuals able to defect. Each iteration increases the sustainable degrees of freedom the system can support. Moral capital is the foundation that allows this progress to occur. For this reason ethical monotheism is the single greatest contributor to human progress from any source since human culture emerged from the stone ages.

Quote
"Nature is amoral. Nature knows nothing of good and evil. In nature there is one rule—survival of the fittest. There is no right, only might. If a creature is weak, kill it. Only human beings could have moral rules such as, "If it is weak, protect it." Only human beings can feel themselves ethically obligated to strangers.
...
Nature allows you to act naturally, i.e., do only what you want you to do, without moral restraints; God does not. Nature lets you act naturally - and it is as natural to kill, rape, and enslave as it is to love.
...
One of the vital elements in the ethical monotheist revolution was its repudiation of nature as god. The evolution of civilization and morality have depended in large part on desanctifying nature.
...
Civilizations that equated gods with nature—a characteristic of all primitive societies—or that worshipped nature did not evolve.
...
Words cannot convey the magnitude of the change wrought by the Bible's introduction into the world of a God who rules the universe morally." - Dennis Prager

The utopia of limited to no government would only be possible for a population constantly striving at all times to be moral. Such a utopia would require all individuals to always act cooperatively, honesty, and transparently. We lack the required moral fiber for anything like this to work at our current juncture in history.

See: Freedom and God for more.


legendary
Activity: 2702
Merit: 1468
January 07, 2017, 09:29:11 AM
Yes, I do. I always believe in God . I can not see God but I can feel this fact when I say prayer to God . After praying, I will be better and more peaceful with everything I can do. Thanks God because you are always with me in everytime and everywhere.
Many people who suffer from dementia also present themselves such as Napoleon and believe in it. This does not mean that he is the Emperor of the French. So faith in God. I think it's a kind of dementia.

However, once a person finds that God DOES exist, then lack of faith in God is shown to be the dementia.

Cool
Any belief should be supported by evidence that you are on the right track. In the case of dementia you will not believe that you are Napoleon. In this you'll believe only you. What makes you believe in God? This is not supported by any evidence?

Here are some links to both, the scientific proof, and overwhelming evidence that God exists. If you don't understand the science, you can easily see the evidence of nature.

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.10718395
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.14047133
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1662153.40
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.16803380

While the proof gives knowledge that God exists, why should I believe Him? In fact, how do I know that He is even talking to me? The history of the way the Bible came into existence makes it an impossible-to-have-happened book. Since the Bible is impossible, yet exists, it has been guided by God to be His Word to people.

Cool

Those are not scientific nor proofs.
legendary
Activity: 3906
Merit: 1373
January 07, 2017, 09:02:58 AM
Yes, I do. I always believe in God . I can not see God but I can feel this fact when I say prayer to God . After praying, I will be better and more peaceful with everything I can do. Thanks God because you are always with me in everytime and everywhere.
Many people who suffer from dementia also present themselves such as Napoleon and believe in it. This does not mean that he is the Emperor of the French. So faith in God. I think it's a kind of dementia.

However, once a person finds that God DOES exist, then lack of faith in God is shown to be the dementia.

Cool
Any belief should be supported by evidence that you are on the right track. In the case of dementia you will not believe that you are Napoleon. In this you'll believe only you. What makes you believe in God? This is not supported by any evidence?

Here are some links to both, the scientific proof, and overwhelming evidence that God exists. If you don't understand the science, you can easily see the evidence of nature.

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.10718395
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.14047133
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1662153.40
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.16803380

While the proof gives knowledge that God exists, why should I believe Him? In fact, how do I know that He is even talking to me? The history of the way the Bible came into existence makes it an impossible-to-have-happened book. Since the Bible is impossible, yet exists, it has been guided by God to be His Word to people.

Cool
sr. member
Activity: 287
Merit: 250
January 07, 2017, 08:40:35 AM
Yes, I do. I always believe in God . I can not see God but I can feel this fact when I say prayer to God . After praying, I will be better and more peaceful with everything I can do. Thanks God because you are always with me in everytime and everywhere.
Many people who suffer from dementia also present themselves such as Napoleon and believe in it. This does not mean that he is the Emperor of the French. So faith in God. I think it's a kind of dementia.

However, once a person finds that God DOES exist, then lack of faith in God is shown to be the dementia.

Cool
Any belief should be supported by evidence that you are on the right track. In the case of dementia you will not believe that you are Napoleon. In this you'll believe only you. What makes you believe in God? This is not supported by any evidence?
legendary
Activity: 3906
Merit: 1373
January 07, 2017, 07:52:21 AM
Yes, I do. I always believe in God . I can not see God but I can feel this fact when I say prayer to God . After praying, I will be better and more peaceful with everything I can do. Thanks God because you are always with me in everytime and everywhere.
Many people who suffer from dementia also present themselves such as Napoleon and believe in it. This does not mean that he is the Emperor of the French. So faith in God. I think it's a kind of dementia.

However, once a person finds that God DOES exist, then lack of faith in God is shown to be the dementia.

Cool
sr. member
Activity: 289
Merit: 250
January 07, 2017, 07:41:46 AM
Yes, I do. I always believe in God . I can not see God but I can feel this fact when I say prayer to God . After praying, I will be better and more peaceful with everything I can do. Thanks God because you are always with me in everytime and everywhere.
Many people who suffer from dementia also present themselves such as Napoleon and believe in it. This does not mean that he is the Emperor of the French. So faith in God. I think it's a kind of dementia.
legendary
Activity: 3906
Merit: 1373
January 07, 2017, 07:37:20 AM

The Argument from Religion - A Transcendental Argument

Morality can’t be found from a scientific examination of nature. So if morality is not in nature it must be beyond nature – the supernatural.

Where does value come from? It’s not found in the world reduced to scientific facts. Nonetheless, it’s found in the world as we actually experience it. We find value in all sorts of things. We value our friendships, and hopefully at least some of our family members. We value certain books, films, projects, beautiful days, ‘nature,’ and music. So value exists. We experience it. A transcendental argument asks – what must the world be like for this experience to be possible? There must be more to the world than scientific facts. The value of the world that we discover must have its basis in something else.
...
Morality is invisible to science because science cannot see value. Anything invisible to science must either not exist at all, or it must be nonphysical. Our name for the nonphysical aspects of reality is the spiritual, i.e., the divine, transcendent, God.
...
There is remarkable agreement among those at the higher reaches of many world religions. High level Buddhists, Catholic monks, Kabbalists, Sufis, all describe ultimate reality in similar terms and much of what they say can be summed up in the cliché, ‘all is one.’

If all is one, then my treating you badly is really treating myself badly.
...


I disagree with the argument from religion and its transcendental argument. It is my belief that humans are intrinsically moral whilst they are at the same time completely natural. I reject a transcendental argument with its postulate of a non physical transcendence - this is a mere construct, a superfluous idea - without a direct basis in physical existence, which is what I believe is in fact the only existence that is, and reality and all it implies (see wiki for details) as well. The world is as it is in its natural state and this reality make morality possible. There is no other basis to have this moral value we find in humans. I name the nonphysical aspects of reality the emergent qualities of personhood. No need to interject metaphysical (imaginary) constructs here. We are indeed connected to each other in a network, but its all natural.


There are others who would not agree with limited "modern" science in this regard - 15 minutes.

The Folly of Machine Consciousness (FULL) - Health Ranger

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPzNAy84OBY


Cool
sr. member
Activity: 441
Merit: 278
It's personal
January 07, 2017, 04:20:09 AM

The Argument from Religion - A Transcendental Argument

Morality can’t be found from a scientific examination of nature. So if morality is not in nature it must be beyond nature – the supernatural.

Where does value come from? It’s not found in the world reduced to scientific facts. Nonetheless, it’s found in the world as we actually experience it. We find value in all sorts of things. We value our friendships, and hopefully at least some of our family members. We value certain books, films, projects, beautiful days, ‘nature,’ and music. So value exists. We experience it. A transcendental argument asks – what must the world be like for this experience to be possible? There must be more to the world than scientific facts. The value of the world that we discover must have its basis in something else.
...
Morality is invisible to science because science cannot see value. Anything invisible to science must either not exist at all, or it must be nonphysical. Our name for the nonphysical aspects of reality is the spiritual, i.e., the divine, transcendent, God.
...
There is remarkable agreement among those at the higher reaches of many world religions. High level Buddhists, Catholic monks, Kabbalists, Sufis, all describe ultimate reality in similar terms and much of what they say can be summed up in the cliché, ‘all is one.’

If all is one, then my treating you badly is really treating myself badly.
...


I disagree with the argument from religion and its transcendental argument. It is my belief that humans are intrinsically moral whilst they are at the same time completely natural. I reject a transcendental argument with its postulate of a non physical transcendence - this is a mere construct, a superfluous idea - without a direct basis in physical existence, which is what I believe is in fact the only existence that is, and reality and all it implies (see wiki for details) as well. The world is as it is in its natural state and this reality make morality possible. There is no other basis to have this moral value we find in humans. I name the nonphysical aspects of reality the emergent qualities of personhood. No need to interject metaphysical (imaginary) constructs here. We are indeed connected to each other in a network, but its all natural.

hero member
Activity: 490
Merit: 501
January 07, 2017, 12:40:31 AM
I do believe in the Creator because right now there are already so many evidences making the faith on evolution getting to be problematic. In fact, there are now some scientists who don't deny the possibility of a great Designer/Creator as the complexities of the DNA is crying for a great and intelligent source.

Now, those who don't believe are free not to. What I don't like is the fact that of many of the so-called atheists seems to be not comfortable living with those who don't yield to their unbelief as if they now think that they are the enlightened ones and they have a mission to convert the whole world to their new religion.

Atheism is a religion of no-religion and a faith of non-beliefs. We are all free here so let us just respect the things we hold dear.
newbie
Activity: 20
Merit: 0
January 07, 2017, 12:23:31 AM
Yes, I do. I always believe in God . I can not see God but I can feel this fact when I say prayer to God . After praying, I will be better and more peaceful with everything I can do. Thanks God because you are always with me in everytime and everywhere.
legendary
Activity: 3906
Merit: 1373
January 07, 2017, 12:05:55 AM

And the "Decker" part stands for the 3 decks on Noah's ark.    Cool

Which supposedly housed the entire animal/bird/reptile/insect and other creature on Earth.

Those poor little Penguin's walking all that way...... somehow I don't believe that story!

That's okay. Gobekli Tepe, and the Pyramids, and all kinds of archaeological sites that are coming into focus, show that the ancient world was not the way modern archaeology has described it for us. They were way ahead of where we think they were, and in some ways, even ahead of us.

The start for understanding this, is the fact that our modern BIG ships - destroyers and battleships and aircraft carriers - are based on the design that God gave Noah. From there we have streamlined the design somewhat. But Noah's basic design is the general best.

Since people back then knew about the best ship design, they certainly had methods for handling animals, and maybe even had zoos. Noah had 120 years to make the ark and add the animals to it. It wasn't something that happened in a few months, or even a few years.

If you think that Noah didn't live for the hundreds of years attributed to him, consider that we are in devolution, not evolution. How can we tell? The fossil record shows that there were as many as 2 or 3 times the different species in the past. Many, many have died out. And there is concern that they are still dying our, today. Devolution is the mode, and entropy is playing its part in this.

Cool
sr. member
Activity: 294
Merit: 250
January 06, 2017, 11:44:48 PM

And the "Decker" part stands for the 3 decks on Noah's ark.    Cool

Which supposedly housed the entire animal/bird/reptile/insect and other creature on Earth.

Those poor little Penguin's walking all that way...... somehow I don't believe that story!
legendary
Activity: 1946
Merit: 1055
January 06, 2017, 03:12:11 PM
Please send the men in white coats for this dude Cheesy Cheesy..
You have lost the plot Grin.
What the smartest man 100 years ago knew is nothing to what a 12 year old child knows now Grin..
SO GROW UP NUTTER  Wink

You know this thread reminds me of the Flat Earth thread over in the off topic section. Lots of pictures, lots of insults, and an utter disinterest in rationality if it challenges preconceived notions.

The depth of your argument popcorn1 tells me that you are either unwilling or unable to cognativally digest complex challenges to your world view.

Quote from: Richard Cocks
We know that pre-rational people exist. Pre-rational people, as I’m defining it, are concrete operational or worse. (Worse would be preoperational/magical and sensorimotor/archaic).
...
The rational person can try to explain how things look to the pre-rational. They will not succeed. Either you can see the validity of a logical argument, or you cannot. If I say if p, then q, p, therefore q and you say ‘no it’s not,’ all I can do is stare at you.
full member
Activity: 197
Merit: 100
January 06, 2017, 02:09:58 PM
Trump has provoked in America, a new wave of racial struggle. This could provoke a civil war in America. I am sure that Russia will use the opportunity to provoke internal conflicts to weaken America.

We can only hope. America today is slipping so far down the totalitarian slope that it's downfall is no longer frightening to me.

The bill of rights are toast. Obama signed a "no free speech" bill killing the first amendment. The patriot act allows anyone to be jailed forever without trial if the arresting LEO says the magic words, "you're a terrorist" killing the fifth, sixth, eighth and fourteenth amendments.

Quote
8,000 Arab and South Asian immigrants have been interrogated because of their religion or ethnic background, not because of actual wrongdoing.

Thousands of men, mostly of Arab and South Asian origin, have been held in secretive federal custody for weeks and months, sometimes without any charges filed against them. The government has refused to publish their names and whereabouts, even when ordered to do so by the courts.

The press and the public have been barred from immigration court hearings of those detained after September 11th and the courts are ordered to keep secret even that the hearings are taking place.

The government is allowed to monitor communications between federal detainees and their lawyers, destroying the attorney- client privilege and threatening the right to counsel.

New Attorney General Guidelines allow FBI spying on religious and political organizations and individuals without having evidence of wrongdoing.

President Bush has ordered military commissions to be set up to try suspected terrorists who are not citizens. They can convict based on hearsay and secret evidence by only two-thirds vote.

American citizens suspected of terrorism are being held indefinitely in military custody without being charged and without access.

America goes away? Meh, no big deal because it's gone already.
Poor is not something that America goes. Bad that there is a large redistribution of spheres of influence in the world. It does not promise anything good. I don't remember who said that there is nothing worse than to live in an era of change. I agree with him.
legendary
Activity: 2156
Merit: 1393
You lead and I'll watch you walk away.
January 06, 2017, 12:59:54 PM
Trump has provoked in America, a new wave of racial struggle. This could provoke a civil war in America. I am sure that Russia will use the opportunity to provoke internal conflicts to weaken America.

We can only hope. America today is slipping so far down the totalitarian slope that it's downfall is no longer frightening to me.

The bill of rights are toast. Obama signed a "no free speech" bill killing the first amendment. The patriot act allows anyone to be jailed forever without trial if the arresting LEO says the magic words, "you're a terrorist" killing the fifth, sixth, eighth and fourteenth amendments.

Quote
8,000 Arab and South Asian immigrants have been interrogated because of their religion or ethnic background, not because of actual wrongdoing.

Thousands of men, mostly of Arab and South Asian origin, have been held in secretive federal custody for weeks and months, sometimes without any charges filed against them. The government has refused to publish their names and whereabouts, even when ordered to do so by the courts.

The press and the public have been barred from immigration court hearings of those detained after September 11th and the courts are ordered to keep secret even that the hearings are taking place.

The government is allowed to monitor communications between federal detainees and their lawyers, destroying the attorney- client privilege and threatening the right to counsel.

New Attorney General Guidelines allow FBI spying on religious and political organizations and individuals without having evidence of wrongdoing.

President Bush has ordered military commissions to be set up to try suspected terrorists who are not citizens. They can convict based on hearsay and secret evidence by only two-thirds vote.

American citizens suspected of terrorism are being held indefinitely in military custody without being charged and without access.

America goes away? Meh, no big deal because it's gone already.
full member
Activity: 193
Merit: 100
January 06, 2017, 12:36:44 PM
Trump has provoked in America, a new wave of racial struggle. This could provoke a civil war in America. I am sure that Russia will use the opportunity to provoke internal conflicts to weaken America.
legendary
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1027
January 06, 2017, 12:32:51 PM
God Or Moral Nihilism
https://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/4871

Quote from: Richard Cocks

Who needs God? Morality is a social construction

If morality is a social construction, then morality does not exist. Just because we call some things ‘good’ and others ‘evil’ doesn’t mean that good and evil refer to anything.
...
If morality doesn’t exist for real, then neither can morality be a useful fiction. Something can only be useful (have extrinsic value) if the thing that it is useful for is actually valuable i.e., intrinsically valuable. If we say that the false belief in morality makes us happy and is therefore good, we are introducing a moral category again; the notion that anything that makes human beings happy is good and anything that makes us unhappy is bad. We arrive at the morally good and bad once again.

All people who think that morality is a social construction and is good/useful, have reintroduced moral realism; the notion that good and evil actually exist. This is a contradiction and therefore cannot be true. You cannot believe that morality is merely a social construction and in moral realism.

If you claim to believe that morality is a social construction, then you are a moral nihilist. All us adults know that Father Christmas doesn’t really exist and you’re effectively claiming that morality doesn’t either.

The Argument from Religion - A Transcendental Argument

Morality can’t be found from a scientific examination of nature. So if morality is not in nature it must be beyond nature – the supernatural.

Where does value come from? It’s not found in the world reduced to scientific facts. Nonetheless, it’s found in the world as we actually experience it. We find value in all sorts of things. We value our friendships, and hopefully at least some of our family members. We value certain books, films, projects, beautiful days, ‘nature,’ and music. So value exists. We experience it. A transcendental argument asks – what must the world be like for this experience to be possible? There must be more to the world than scientific facts. The value of the world that we discover must have its basis in something else.
...
Morality is invisible to science because science cannot see value. Anything invisible to science must either not exist at all, or it must be nonphysical. Our name for the nonphysical aspects of reality is the spiritual, i.e., the divine, transcendent, God.
...
There is remarkable agreement among those at the higher reaches of many world religions. High level Buddhists, Catholic monks, Kabbalists, Sufis, all describe ultimate reality in similar terms and much of what they say can be summed up in the cliché, ‘all is one.’

If all is one, then my treating you badly is really treating myself badly.
...
God or Moral Nihilism

Your choices are God or moral nihilism. Social constructionism and Darwinian evolutionary theory can only allow you to say that we think and act like morality exists, not that morality does exist. Social construction and Darwinism certainly have nothing to say about the truth of morality. In fact, they suppose the opposite. In the first case, we just made it up, like Father Christmas. That’s called moral nihilism. The second case, Darwinians might try to say that morality is useful in promoting survival, but since they cannot establish that surviving has any intrinsic value, they cannot logically point to the extrinsic value of morality. Nothing has extrinsic value if nothing has intrinsic value and since the existence of intrinsic value is precisely what needs explaining in morality, Darwin and his followers have nothing interesting to say on the topic.

If you choose moral nihilism, just remember what you are choosing...If moral nihilism is true, then your life has no value and neither does anybody else’s.

The torturer will be right to start removing your fingers. Why? Because it’s fun and you can have nothing to say on the subject...The fact that you don’t want to die is only relevant if morality exists and morality requires another person to respect your wishes and desires. If you claim that your wishes and desires are nonetheless important, then you will be unable to say why my wishes and desires are not important too...we can go back to gassing the Jews, human sacrifice, and seeing how loud we can get torture victims to scream and any other psychotic things you can think of. If you must respect my wishes and desires, then you are behaving morally. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
Please send the men in white coats for this dude Cheesy Cheesy..
You have lost the plot Grin.
What the smartest man 100 years ago knew is nothing to what a 12 year old child knows now Grin..
SO GROW UP NUTTER  Wink
legendary
Activity: 2156
Merit: 1393
You lead and I'll watch you walk away.
January 06, 2017, 12:06:38 PM
God Or Moral Nihilism
https://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/4871

Quote from: Richard Cocks

Who needs God? Morality is a social construction

If morality is a social construction, then morality does not exist. Just because we call some things ‘good’ and others ‘evil’ doesn’t mean that good and evil refer to anything.
...
If morality doesn’t exist for real, then neither can morality be a useful fiction. Something can only be useful (have extrinsic value) if the thing that it is useful for is actually valuable i.e., intrinsically valuable. If we say that the false belief in morality makes us happy and is therefore good, we are introducing a moral category again; the notion that anything that makes human beings happy is good and anything that makes us unhappy is bad. We arrive at the morally good and bad once again.

All people who think that morality is a social construction and is good/useful, have reintroduced moral realism; the notion that good and evil actually exist. This is a contradiction and therefore cannot be true. You cannot believe that morality is merely a social construction and in moral realism.

If you claim to believe that morality is a social construction, then you are a moral nihilist. All us adults know that Father Christmas doesn’t really exist and you’re effectively claiming that morality doesn’t either.

The Argument from Religion - A Transcendental Argument

Morality can’t be found from a scientific examination of nature. So if morality is not in nature it must be beyond nature – the supernatural.

Where does value come from? It’s not found in the world reduced to scientific facts. Nonetheless, it’s found in the world as we actually experience it. We find value in all sorts of things. We value our friendships, and hopefully at least some of our family members. We value certain books, films, projects, beautiful days, ‘nature,’ and music. So value exists. We experience it. A transcendental argument asks – what must the world be like for this experience to be possible? There must be more to the world than scientific facts. The value of the world that we discover must have its basis in something else.
...
Morality is invisible to science because science cannot see value. Anything invisible to science must either not exist at all, or it must be nonphysical. Our name for the nonphysical aspects of reality is the spiritual, i.e., the divine, transcendent, God.
...
There is remarkable agreement among those at the higher reaches of many world religions. High level Buddhists, Catholic monks, Kabbalists, Sufis, all describe ultimate reality in similar terms and much of what they say can be summed up in the cliché, ‘all is one.’

If all is one, then my treating you badly is really treating myself badly.
...
God or Moral Nihilism

Your choices are God or moral nihilism. Social constructionism and Darwinian evolutionary theory can only allow you to say that we think and act like morality exists, not that morality does exist. Social construction and Darwinism certainly have nothing to say about the truth of morality. In fact, they suppose the opposite. In the first case, we just made it up, like Father Christmas. That’s called moral nihilism. The second case, Darwinians might try to say that morality is useful in promoting survival, but since they cannot establish that surviving has any intrinsic value, they cannot logically point to the extrinsic value of morality. Nothing has extrinsic value if nothing has intrinsic value and since the existence of intrinsic value is precisely what needs explaining in morality, Darwin and his followers have nothing interesting to say on the topic.

If you choose moral nihilism, just remember what you are choosing...If moral nihilism is true, then your life has no value and neither does anybody else’s.

The torturer will be right to start removing your fingers. Why? Because it’s fun and you can have nothing to say on the subject...The fact that you don’t want to die is only relevant if morality exists and morality requires another person to respect your wishes and desires. If you claim that your wishes and desires are nonetheless important, then you will be unable to say why my wishes and desires are not important too...we can go back to gassing the Jews, human sacrifice, and seeing how loud we can get torture victims to scream and any other psychotic things you can think of. If you must respect my wishes and desires, then you are behaving morally. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

Of course, morality is something that is chemically built into every person. It has been handed down, parents to children, since the Beginning. God invented it. It has to do with our ability to live in the universe.

The interesting thing is that it may be attached to the soul and spirit in ways that are non-physical, as well.

Cool

When you're, you're right. I got an idea, let's go beat up some fags and burn a few niggers on crosses after church today.



full member
Activity: 193
Merit: 100
January 06, 2017, 12:02:37 PM
What does God do? You yourself say that in your head morals have invested your parents. There are parents who invest in the head by his other principles. So they made another God? Just there is no God, therefore all people are different.
legendary
Activity: 3906
Merit: 1373
January 06, 2017, 08:14:50 AM
God Or Moral Nihilism
https://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/4871

Quote from: Richard Cocks

Who needs God? Morality is a social construction

If morality is a social construction, then morality does not exist. Just because we call some things ‘good’ and others ‘evil’ doesn’t mean that good and evil refer to anything.
...
If morality doesn’t exist for real, then neither can morality be a useful fiction. Something can only be useful (have extrinsic value) if the thing that it is useful for is actually valuable i.e., intrinsically valuable. If we say that the false belief in morality makes us happy and is therefore good, we are introducing a moral category again; the notion that anything that makes human beings happy is good and anything that makes us unhappy is bad. We arrive at the morally good and bad once again.

All people who think that morality is a social construction and is good/useful, have reintroduced moral realism; the notion that good and evil actually exist. This is a contradiction and therefore cannot be true. You cannot believe that morality is merely a social construction and in moral realism.

If you claim to believe that morality is a social construction, then you are a moral nihilist. All us adults know that Father Christmas doesn’t really exist and you’re effectively claiming that morality doesn’t either.

The Argument from Religion - A Transcendental Argument

Morality can’t be found from a scientific examination of nature. So if morality is not in nature it must be beyond nature – the supernatural.

Where does value come from? It’s not found in the world reduced to scientific facts. Nonetheless, it’s found in the world as we actually experience it. We find value in all sorts of things. We value our friendships, and hopefully at least some of our family members. We value certain books, films, projects, beautiful days, ‘nature,’ and music. So value exists. We experience it. A transcendental argument asks – what must the world be like for this experience to be possible? There must be more to the world than scientific facts. The value of the world that we discover must have its basis in something else.
...
Morality is invisible to science because science cannot see value. Anything invisible to science must either not exist at all, or it must be nonphysical. Our name for the nonphysical aspects of reality is the spiritual, i.e., the divine, transcendent, God.
...
There is remarkable agreement among those at the higher reaches of many world religions. High level Buddhists, Catholic monks, Kabbalists, Sufis, all describe ultimate reality in similar terms and much of what they say can be summed up in the cliché, ‘all is one.’

If all is one, then my treating you badly is really treating myself badly.
...
God or Moral Nihilism

Your choices are God or moral nihilism. Social constructionism and Darwinian evolutionary theory can only allow you to say that we think and act like morality exists, not that morality does exist. Social construction and Darwinism certainly have nothing to say about the truth of morality. In fact, they suppose the opposite. In the first case, we just made it up, like Father Christmas. That’s called moral nihilism. The second case, Darwinians might try to say that morality is useful in promoting survival, but since they cannot establish that surviving has any intrinsic value, they cannot logically point to the extrinsic value of morality. Nothing has extrinsic value if nothing has intrinsic value and since the existence of intrinsic value is precisely what needs explaining in morality, Darwin and his followers have nothing interesting to say on the topic.

If you choose moral nihilism, just remember what you are choosing...If moral nihilism is true, then your life has no value and neither does anybody else’s.

The torturer will be right to start removing your fingers. Why? Because it’s fun and you can have nothing to say on the subject...The fact that you don’t want to die is only relevant if morality exists and morality requires another person to respect your wishes and desires. If you claim that your wishes and desires are nonetheless important, then you will be unable to say why my wishes and desires are not important too...we can go back to gassing the Jews, human sacrifice, and seeing how loud we can get torture victims to scream and any other psychotic things you can think of. If you must respect my wishes and desires, then you are behaving morally. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

Of course, morality is something that is chemically built into every person. It has been handed down, parents to children, since the Beginning. God invented it. It has to do with our ability to live in the universe.

The interesting thing is that it may be attached to the soul and spirit in ways that are non-physical, as well.

Cool
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