Topic: Donetsk, Kharkov, Lugansk - way to Russia. - page 81. (Read 734725 times)
That is extremely unfortunate.
Hopefully the Ukies won't be able to get 200k conscripts like they planned, last I read they were only getting 6-10% of the conscripts from the latest mobilization wave, the rest are all dodging the draft by fleeing to Russia or Hungary.
More than half of the population in Western Ukraine is living in acute poverty. Most of them won't be able to afford traveling to Hungary or Russia. They will end up as cannon fodder in Debaltsevo and Mariupol.
Hopefully the Ukies won't be able to get 200k conscripts like they planned, last I read they were only getting 6-10% of the conscripts from the latest mobilization wave, the rest are all dodging the draft by fleeing to Russia or Hungary.
Pervomajskoej was shelled by Ukro-atry, resulting in severe damage to ambulance reception center and a school. Slavjanoserbsk was also shelled.
Ukrainian army try to pull out of Debaltsevo as fast as they can, before the pocket closes. But it's still an open question if NAF will manage to do it.
Russian: http://www.gazeta.ru/social/news/2015/01/27/n_6865557.shtml
English: http://itar-tass.com/en/world/773721
Intelligence of DNR reported that Ukro-Nazis use execution squads, placed behind the conscript lines to kill those who try to desert. There is suspicion that these squads are formed of Western mercenaries, who don't care who to shoot at.
http://tass.ru/mezhdunarodnaya-panorama/1726321
Six wounded in Ukraine's Luhansk shelling by government forces — Luhansk republic
http://itar-tass.com/en/world/773730
2000 thousand under-educated cadets are to be sent to the slaughter by Kiev-Nazis from Lvov, Harkov and Poltava:
http://www.bfm.ru/news/284733
It is a tragic irony. An elderly woman on Pervomajskoe said in an interview that she was born during a war, and it seems that she will die in a war... There are numerous calls coming from the elderly veterans of WWII, left unheeded by the brainwashed populous in the West to come to their senses and to live in peace.
And this year marks the anniversary of the end of blockade of Leningrad by German Nazis.
You know, I feel nothing but pity and sadness for her.
Ukrainian army try to pull out of Debaltsevo as fast as they can, before the pocket closes. But it's still an open question if NAF will manage to do it.
Russian: http://www.gazeta.ru/social/news/2015/01/27/n_6865557.shtml
English: http://itar-tass.com/en/world/773721
Intelligence of DNR reported that Ukro-Nazis use execution squads, placed behind the conscript lines to kill those who try to desert. There is suspicion that these squads are formed of Western mercenaries, who don't care who to shoot at.
http://tass.ru/mezhdunarodnaya-panorama/1726321
Six wounded in Ukraine's Luhansk shelling by government forces — Luhansk republic
http://itar-tass.com/en/world/773730
2000 thousand under-educated cadets are to be sent to the slaughter by Kiev-Nazis from Lvov, Harkov and Poltava:
http://www.bfm.ru/news/284733
It is a tragic irony. An elderly woman on Pervomajskoe said in an interview that she was born during a war, and it seems that she will die in a war... There are numerous calls coming from the elderly veterans of WWII, left unheeded by the brainwashed populous in the West to come to their senses and to live in peace.
And this year marks the anniversary of the end of blockade of Leningrad by German Nazis.
RasPutin is no match for gun-toting Ukraine Granny! 
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/ukrainian-grandmother-67-trains-kill-russians-video-article-1.2085816
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/ukrainian-grandmother-67-trains-kill-russians-video-article-1.2085816
You know, I feel nothing but pity and sadness for her.
RasPutin is no match for gun-toting Ukraine Granny!
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/ukrainian-grandmother-67-trains-kill-russians-video-article-1.2085816
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/ukrainian-grandmother-67-trains-kill-russians-video-article-1.2085816
Quote
This Ukrainian grandma just wanted to prepare dinner for her country’s Russian-fighting rebels.
Now she’s prepared to kill for them, too.
Kateryna Bilyk, 67, told Ukraine Today she’s locked, loaded and ready for action as pro-Ukraine rebels are fighting Russian separatists in a bloody conflict.
In a video, Bilyk shows she knows how to hold an assault rifle, fire at a distance and roll her way through a combat zone.
She said she showed up a western Ukraine village of volunteer fighters thinking it would be nice to cook supper for them. But when she saw other women grabbing guns and getting ready to kill, she figured any good granny should fight for the cause.
“If everyone among us appreciates the homeland, we will have victory,” the scarf-wearing grandma of five children said in the translated video.
Her comrades call this packed pensioner “The Punisher.”
Now she’s prepared to kill for them, too.
Kateryna Bilyk, 67, told Ukraine Today she’s locked, loaded and ready for action as pro-Ukraine rebels are fighting Russian separatists in a bloody conflict.
In a video, Bilyk shows she knows how to hold an assault rifle, fire at a distance and roll her way through a combat zone.
She said she showed up a western Ukraine village of volunteer fighters thinking it would be nice to cook supper for them. But when she saw other women grabbing guns and getting ready to kill, she figured any good granny should fight for the cause.
“If everyone among us appreciates the homeland, we will have victory,” the scarf-wearing grandma of five children said in the translated video.
Her comrades call this packed pensioner “The Punisher.”
Utterly ironic, the male population of western Ukraine are en masse avoiding mobilization declared by Kiev by running to Russia. The inhabitants of a village in Transcarpathia rented two buses, paid the fee for crossing the border and entered the country, lol... 
Putin, in one of his speeches once said that he long ago adopted the following strategy: he does not take an action unless he is absolutely sure about the consequences, both obvious and unforeseen. If he is unsure, he waits to see how the situation plays out and once the he is sure of the consequences, he acts swiftly.
Funny since the start is is telling white , and second later black ...
If he wanted peace ...stop the shit , he never sent any weapons to East of Ukrainia ... nor complete trucks & tanks ... do we need to show you video ... where people ask them if the are ukrainian or russia
From where theses tanks are coming ...All the lie about russian langage, russian has never been forbidden ... in Ukrainia , it was a proposition and never voted ! But perhaps you can explain us why now in Crimea Ukrainia langage has been forbidden in school ... books burnt ... hahahaha
We finish to start to think who are really the most mad-nazis-brainless ....
He claims suddently russian has lost the biggest amount of people during WW2 ... ho yes MR Poutine ... but hey you forget to explain why Russian with Hitler get a secret pact to divide/invade Poland .... to better invade it later ... is Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact rings a bell ??
Again you forget the history ... do not be afraid to explain how Stalin was ... either with russian citizen ... It is estimated that between 1941 and 1949 nearly 3.3 million were deported to Siberia and the Central Asian republics.
So ... for sure you must not forget how "mad" dictator is dangerous !
Here is the latest status map:
http://kot-ivanov.livejournal.com/7449.html
It can be seen that the Debaltsevo pocket is getting more and more isolated.
Also, check this:
http://liveuamap.com/en/2015/27-january-ukrainian-troops-retreat-from-ozeryanovka?ll=48.27359999999999;37.967550000000074&zoom=8
Pro-Kiev source admitting that the village of Ozeryanovka (SW of Gorlovka) has been over-run by the militia.
http://kot-ivanov.livejournal.com/7449.html
It can be seen that the Debaltsevo pocket is getting more and more isolated.
Also, check this:
http://liveuamap.com/en/2015/27-january-ukrainian-troops-retreat-from-ozeryanovka?ll=48.27359999999999;37.967550000000074&zoom=8
Pro-Kiev source admitting that the village of Ozeryanovka (SW of Gorlovka) has been over-run by the militia.
Putin, in one of his speeches once said that he long ago adopted the following strategy: he does not take an action unless he is absolutely sure about the consequences, both obvious and unforeseen. If he is unsure, he waits to see how the situation plays out and once the he is sure of the consequences, he acts swiftly.
In light of this, it is interesting to observe the recent shift in his stance towards Ukraine and "politicians" there.
First he said that the current government in Ukraine is responsible for the war crimes committed in Novorossia war criminals.
(Let's hope that there will be a trial over not only the obvious criminals, but also over their puppet masters, in all: Poroshenko, Obama, Yatsenjuk, Nuland, Turchinov, Kerry, Nilvajchenko, Yarosh, Biden - there is no expiration date on war crimes)
Now, the following franc statement:
Putin: While a civil war rages in Ukraine, Ukraine’s army is in fact a legion of NATO
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0gNIotO2l40
And what to do about it? Putin offers the Ukrainians, who don't want to become cannon fodder in the NATO foreign legion to sit it out in Russia. He said that the current rules, whereupon people have to return to Ukraine after a 90-day stay in Russia (and where they are "mogilized" into Ukro-army), will be reviewed, giving people a chance to stay out of harm's way. A good move: if you want to extinguish a fire, remove heat, if you want to stop a war, remove supply of cannon fodder.
By the way, the term "mogilization" for mobilization is coined in Ukraine, playing on the Russian/Ukrainian word "mogila" - "grave".
In light of this, it is interesting to observe the recent shift in his stance towards Ukraine and "politicians" there.
First he said that the current government in Ukraine is responsible for the war crimes committed in Novorossia war criminals.
(Let's hope that there will be a trial over not only the obvious criminals, but also over their puppet masters, in all: Poroshenko, Obama, Yatsenjuk, Nuland, Turchinov, Kerry, Nilvajchenko, Yarosh, Biden - there is no expiration date on war crimes)
Now, the following franc statement:
Putin: While a civil war rages in Ukraine, Ukraine’s army is in fact a legion of NATO
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0gNIotO2l40
And what to do about it? Putin offers the Ukrainians, who don't want to become cannon fodder in the NATO foreign legion to sit it out in Russia. He said that the current rules, whereupon people have to return to Ukraine after a 90-day stay in Russia (and where they are "mogilized" into Ukro-army), will be reviewed, giving people a chance to stay out of harm's way. A good move: if you want to extinguish a fire, remove heat, if you want to stop a war, remove supply of cannon fodder.
By the way, the term "mogilization" for mobilization is coined in Ukraine, playing on the Russian/Ukrainian word "mogila" - "grave".
I really doubt they will ever be tried.
Putin, in one of his speeches once said that he long ago adopted the following strategy: he does not take an action unless he is absolutely sure about the consequences, both obvious and unforeseen. If he is unsure, he waits to see how the situation plays out and once the he is sure of the consequences, he acts swiftly.
In light of this, it is interesting to observe the recent shift in his stance towards Ukraine and "politicians" there.
First he said that the current government in Ukraine is responsible for the war crimes committed in Novorossia war criminals.
(Let's hope that there will be a trial over not only the obvious criminals, but also over their puppet masters, in all: Poroshenko, Obama, Yatsenjuk, Nuland, Turchinov, Kerry, Nilvajchenko, Yarosh, Biden - there is no expiration date on war crimes)
Now, the following franc statement:
Putin: While a civil war rages in Ukraine, Ukraine’s army is in fact a legion of NATO
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0gNIotO2l40
And what to do about it? Putin offers the Ukrainians, who don't want to become cannon fodder in the NATO foreign legion to sit it out in Russia. He said that the current rules, whereupon people have to return to Ukraine after a 90-day stay in Russia (and where they are "mogilized" into Ukro-army), will be reviewed, giving people a chance to stay out of harm's way. A good move: if you want to extinguish a fire, remove heat, if you want to stop a war, remove supply of cannon fodder.
By the way, the term "mogilization" for mobilization is coined in Ukraine, playing on the Russian/Ukrainian word "mogila" - "grave".
In light of this, it is interesting to observe the recent shift in his stance towards Ukraine and "politicians" there.
First he said that the current government in Ukraine is responsible for the war crimes committed in Novorossia war criminals.
(Let's hope that there will be a trial over not only the obvious criminals, but also over their puppet masters, in all: Poroshenko, Obama, Yatsenjuk, Nuland, Turchinov, Kerry, Nilvajchenko, Yarosh, Biden - there is no expiration date on war crimes)
Now, the following franc statement:
Putin: While a civil war rages in Ukraine, Ukraine’s army is in fact a legion of NATO
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0gNIotO2l40
And what to do about it? Putin offers the Ukrainians, who don't want to become cannon fodder in the NATO foreign legion to sit it out in Russia. He said that the current rules, whereupon people have to return to Ukraine after a 90-day stay in Russia (and where they are "mogilized" into Ukro-army), will be reviewed, giving people a chance to stay out of harm's way. A good move: if you want to extinguish a fire, remove heat, if you want to stop a war, remove supply of cannon fodder.
By the way, the term "mogilization" for mobilization is coined in Ukraine, playing on the Russian/Ukrainian word "mogila" - "grave".
The American Empire is the beacon of piece and humanities (the covert inculcation)... And the Chief Justice at that!
As I may feel sarcasm in your words, I guess that you will agree that making such an exceptional nation your arch enemy is a proposition very risk prone, at least?
Exceptional nation, wtf?! What are you really talking about? It seems that now you're trying to insinuate your own perceptions unto me...
No, I don't share them
BitMos is a self-confessed troll, who I feel trolls for fun with no real malicious intent. Don't get baited.
I have worst... there is something here :
I will not say more... but I am sure it beats what 700k$+/y have produce
.
I will not say more... but I am sure it beats what 700k$+/y have produce
.The American Empire is the beacon of piece and humanities (the covert inculcation)... And the Chief Justice at that!
As I may feel sarcasm in your words, I guess that you will agree that making such an exceptional nation your arch enemy is a proposition very risk prone, at least?
Exceptional nation, wtf?! What are you really talking about? It seems that now you're trying to insinuate your own perceptions unto me...
No, I don't share them
I see that Souldream is getting his "1 hryvnia per post" payments in non-stop mode.
This is the only post you can do ? Personnal attack ... ? Pathetic again ... nice done !
it isn't a personal attack but a nice joke
((when you can be payed in btc ).During this time civil people die ... to protect the $$ of rich linked Russian ... you think Poutine & his gang do the war for the "russian speaking" ...
Haa yes Lavrov & Poutine claims ... this is for protecting Russia ... LoL
civil people are gonna die anyway, but more seriously on your point, even if I am not a fan for many reasons, technically speaking if putin owns Russia, he may want to protect Russia. Never been in contact to the story of the dolls? furthermore there is a concept very deep in Russian game, the Motherland.
Hey ... where you living ? Why Eu or US would want to invade Russia ? To get what ... ?
who knows... but maybe because Russia is behaving badly outside of Russia? On the others side who is trying to conquer for example the food supply of the world? or to file everyone on earth living? it's not like the "Russians" were some American or eurotrash pikers not aware of anything
, which at time even if played can be quite insulting... or even sometimes dangerous.Who are making incursion plane/sub in all north Europe actually ?
Who enforce everyday their so called best weapons of the world ?
you really believed the scam of the usmiic that war was conventional since 1945? piker.
All the last years all European country limited the weapons build / spread ... only one country , want to recall everyday his "supremacy" of army/weapons ...
if weapon is stealth, like financial isn't it less a weapon? with a hammer you can build or destroy...
You think you will build peace based on weapons ? Really ...
at least you can stop that want to harm you to do so. furthermore as the first amendment leads sometime outsider to act of rage and interrupted stupidity it became clear that a little add on was necessary. Furthermore even the companions of the Christ were carrying.
Do we need to recall you why the first time the URSSS falled down ... ? No money for citizen ... all for the party / army ... LOL ??
so you are against centralization?
History learn to us to avoid to make the same mistake ... and actually Russia has built his own Vietnam in Ukraina !
picture a cold winter in the coldest point of Vietnam, picture yourself in ukitown? now visualize the greeneries... don't you see? and then you know what most russitown are even ukier
Making all country upset around him ... is really a bad idea LoL
so you are a nationalist? don't you think that individuals shall be upset and not fictions reality like "country"
at the end there is 2 options, more escalations until Russians abroad are called on the "home front" and finally can return to a more traditional, less aggressive Russian defense posture, none the less apparently deterrent enough to calm even the most astute Imperialists...
.Or they can unilaterally go home, or back to the motherland, and like all magic the spell of destruction over novorossia and co, will stop as long as a demilitarization of the zone occurs.
Standing armies /= Unleash Free Markets.
(Unleash Free Markets Is Welcome by the Universe, Standing armies not much...).
what surprise me the most is the lack of distribution of Toлcтóй work in the area... it's old,... how foolish.
The American Empire is the beacon of piece and humanities (the covert inculcation)... And the Chief Justice at that!
As I may feel sarcasm in your words, I guess that you will agree that making such an exceptional nation your arch enemy is a proposition very risk prone, at least?
8-10% of the entire ukraine army just got caught in another boiler. Ilovaisk 3.0 is about to happen.
I can't imagine why they didn't retreat before this happened... the Ukrops have the worst commanders ever..
I can't imagine why they didn't retreat before this happened... the Ukrops have the worst commanders ever..
There are indications that some commanders in Ukro-army are not happy and would rather end this stupid war and minimise losses by facilitating situations that lead to surrender.
Here is how the situation looked like before the cauldron closed:
The above is taken from
https://futuristrendcast.wordpress.com/2015/01/24/stunning-turnaround-donetsk-announces-the-beginning-of-mariupol-offensive-refuses-poroshenkos-fake-truce/
An interesting reference from that article:
Quote
The containment factor for DNR was that they refused to shell any of their cities, thus potentially endangering their citizens’ lives. This humanitarian restraint was what Kiev counted on since they occupied Mariupol, Slavyansk, and other areas of DNR and LNR. Back in May 2014, many unarmed citizens of Mariupol tried to prevent Kiev tanks from getting into the city, resulting in a horrible massacre on par with May 2, 2014 Odessa massacre. Many local citizens were killed, wounded and kidnapped.
It is a terrible choice: to bomb or not to bomb. But I am afraid DNR can’t get around taking over Mariupol, and – sadly – Kiev will do everything to make this as bloody as possible, out of spite and vengeance, and so later to blame any losses on DNR. Looks like they have already started doing that.
...
Zakharchenko’s announcement: Aлeкcaндp Зaxapчeнкo зaявил o нaчaлe нacтyплeния нa Mapиyпoль. While commemorating the victims of the Donetsk bus bombing, he announced that DNR started advancement on Mariupol.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i3dHZpQXcIU
Zakharchenko also announced that the 1/24/15 bombing of Mariupol is a provocation of the Kiev regime. Self-defence, he said, has no artillery in that area.
It is a terrible choice: to bomb or not to bomb. But I am afraid DNR can’t get around taking over Mariupol, and – sadly – Kiev will do everything to make this as bloody as possible, out of spite and vengeance, and so later to blame any losses on DNR. Looks like they have already started doing that.
...
Zakharchenko’s announcement: Aлeкcaндp Зaxapчeнкo зaявил o нaчaлe нacтyплeния нa Mapиyпoль. While commemorating the victims of the Donetsk bus bombing, he announced that DNR started advancement on Mariupol.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i3dHZpQXcIU
Zakharchenko also announced that the 1/24/15 bombing of Mariupol is a provocation of the Kiev regime. Self-defence, he said, has no artillery in that area.
Some other news:
Ukro-Nazi troops burnt bodies of the foreign mercenaries to hide the fact that they are fighting in Ukraine:
http://lifenews.ru/news/148917
PACE offers Savchenko international immunity. She is accused of targeting civilian columns in Donbass and in death of two Russian journalists as the result of artillery shelling from her targeting:
http://lenta.ru/news/2015/01/26/savchenko/
1. It proves to the American Empire that you aren't peaceful. And that in itself is very important. How could idiots progressive support a peaceful solution? (I know most of the time they are indoctrinated adult, ie less smart than a kid...).
2. It brings body bags from outside of Russia without any goal... what's the point of dying next to tartoos? for what?
3. At the end it doesn't really disturb the Empire, it just proves that you are bad. All flow are clear, and in a First strike those spots are gone at the same time as the Kremlin, ie no added security...
2. It brings body bags from outside of Russia without any goal... what's the point of dying next to tartoos? for what?
3. At the end it doesn't really disturb the Empire, it just proves that you are bad. All flow are clear, and in a First strike those spots are gone at the same time as the Kremlin, ie no added security...
The American Empire is the beacon of peace and humanities (the covert inculcation)... And the Chief Justice at that!
History learn to us to avoid to make the same mistake ... and actually Russia has built his own Vietnam in Ukraina !
Making all country upset around him ... is really a bad idea LoL
Making all country upset around him ... is really a bad idea LoL
To be honest East Ukraine looks more like an "internal use Vietnam" for the govt in Kiev... :/
I see that Souldream is getting his "1 hryvnia per post" payments in non-stop mode.
This is the only post you can do ? Personnal attack ... ? Pathetic again ... nice done !
During this time civil people die ... to protect the $$ of rich linked Russian ... you think Poutine & his gang do the war for the "russian speaking" ...
Haa yes Lavrov & Poutine claims ... this is for protecting Russia ... LoL
Hey ... where you living ? Why Eu or US would want to invade Russia ? To get what ... ?
Who are making incursion plane/sub in all north Europe actually ?
Who enforce everyday their so called best weapons of the world ?
All the last years all European country limited the weapons build / spread ... only one country , want to recall everyday his "supremacy" of army/weapons ...
You think you will build peace based on weapons ? Really ...
Do we need to recall you why the first time the URSSS falled down ... ? No money for citizen ... all for the party / army ... LOL ??
History learn to us to avoid to make the same mistake ... and actually Russia has built his own Vietnam in Ukraina !
Making all country upset around him ... is really a bad idea LoL
To comeback to my last post, what really makes me angry, is that I don't understand how any military basis outside of Russia, makes Russia stronger, safer, versatile"r" or resilience"r" . I don't get it. Russia has the chance to be a "compact", common block... what's the interest of having tartoos, a spot in iran or what ever else that isn't inside the border of the federation ( I let on the side novorrossia and crimea, at least the signs are already in Russian). For me this obsession is dangerous.
1. It proves to the American Empire that you aren't peaceful. And that in itself is very important. How could idiots progressive support a peaceful solution? (I know most of the time they are indoctrinated adult, ie less smart than a kid...).
2. It brings body bags from outside of Russia without any goal... what's the point of dying next to tartoos? for what?
3. At the end it doesn't really disturb the Empire, it just proves that you are bad. All flow are clear, and in a First strike those spots are gone at the same time as the Kremlin, ie no added security...
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About Ukraine, is it true that the IMF under Laggard forced the Ukies to attack Novorrossia to get a loan? If it's the case Laggard before the ICC... she has technically forced people to get to war for a loan (whooa what a news). The trouble in Novorrossia is very positive to keep the crimeans in Russia...
edit: the imf tried to destroy the usd with the sdr, institutionally speaking the girl must understand that she will be treated like a man, and that when "red army" forces enter... don't expect much (for a girl or a man from the adversarial camp), as such why not try to foment war to get usa vs Russia to inflict damage on each other and then scoop the plate uno-imf like and destroy both to impose sdr and global gov.... those nasty little globalists have still not be hunted ww, they were in hiding but are still planning a take over... imf as a spring board.
don't worry anti globalist, true darksiders of world market will help you, around 2-3 min before your defeat (short term) why? hahaha pickers.
. I don't get it. Russia has the chance to be a "compact", common block... what's the interest of having tartoos, a spot in iran or what ever else that isn't inside the border of the federation ( I let on the side novorrossia and crimea, at least the signs are already in Russian). For me this obsession is dangerous.1. It proves to the American Empire that you aren't peaceful. And that in itself is very important. How could idiots progressive support a peaceful solution? (I know most of the time they are indoctrinated adult, ie less smart than a kid...).
2. It brings body bags from outside of Russia without any goal... what's the point of dying next to tartoos? for what?
3. At the end it doesn't really disturb the Empire, it just proves that you are bad. All flow are clear, and in a First strike those spots are gone at the same time as the Kremlin, ie no added security...
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
About Ukraine, is it true that the IMF under Laggard forced the Ukies to attack Novorrossia to get a loan? If it's the case Laggard before the ICC... she has technically forced people to get to war for a loan (whooa what a news
). The trouble in Novorrossia is very positive to keep the crimeans in Russia... edit: the imf tried to destroy the usd with the sdr, institutionally speaking the girl must understand that she will be treated like a man, and that when "red army" forces enter... don't expect much (for a girl or a man from the adversarial camp), as such why not try to foment war to get usa vs Russia to inflict damage on each other and then scoop the plate uno-imf like and destroy both to impose sdr and global gov.... those nasty little globalists have still not be hunted ww, they were in hiding but are still planning a take over... imf as a spring board.
don't worry anti globalist, true darksiders of world market will help you, around 2-3 min before your defeat (short term) why? hahaha pickers
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