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Topic: [DVC]DevCoin - Official Thread - Moderated - page 96. (Read 1059157 times)

hero member
Activity: 720
Merit: 500
100% support them. not maybe or maybe not support them. thats what i meant. support them 100%
Ok. I guess you're presupposing that a new coin deletes the old irrespective of wider opinion? I agree that would be a problem.

The rationale for Devcoin was to 'give money to open source developers for their work in as fair a manner as possible'.

This purpose via associated generation/mechanics never lent itself to passive interests. This is now self-evident, even if it wasn't before. Whether that's due to any or all of distribution errors, naivety, greed, quality, concentration, oversupply etc is debateable.

But on your statement - why should you or I be 100% supported for doing basically nothing for X years beyond waiting and hoping? It particularly doesn't make sense to address apparent oversupply (I don't necessarily agree that's the core problem) by incorporating a supply swap.

That's the only aspect I'm referring to. However I don't actually know your opinion on new-coin, and you may be justifying interests in other changes for other reasons. As do I.
member
Activity: 97
Merit: 10
----we should always reward holders 100%. never abandon ppl who initially supported dvc. they spent money on the coin so if they still have them they should be allowed to swap for new coins if that happens.
100% of what? I don't think there is a fair way way to do it while maintaining apparent aims, but that's what needs defining and justifying.

100% support them. not maybe or maybe not support them. thats what i meant. support them 100%
hero member
Activity: 720
Merit: 500
----we should always reward holders 100%. never abandon ppl who initially supported dvc. they spent money on the coin so if they still have them they should be allowed to swap for new coins if that happens.
100% of what? I don't think there is a fair way way to do it while maintaining apparent aims, but that's what needs defining and justifying.
member
Activity: 97
Merit: 10
I did say "It may not reward holders".

----we should always reward holders 100%. never abandon ppl who initially supported dvc. they spent money on the coin so if they still have them they should be allowed to swap for new coins if that happens.



 "I would like see more thoughts from the community regarding converting old to new. Also, if we should keep forking Bitcoin or maybe move away into another i.e: STEEM, Ethereum, ...
Thanks a lot for the insights so far! Please keep going!"


-----i like either ethereum or waves. not steem. steem founders mindset is 'me me me first." watch some videos on steem being called scam coin (even tho i disagree, steem is all about enriching the founders way too much).
how about ERC20 tokens on waves platform or ethereum blockchain. we can swap dvc coins for new erc20 tokens. this will make everything easier and simpler.
sr. member
Activity: 470
Merit: 350
dont just say you dont agree without substantiating. please tell us why you dont agree.
I explained why in previous posts.

Edit: Main change motivation seems to be lower/limited supply and/or deflation. It doesn't therefore seem logical to convert existing supply (particularly a method with perpetual optionality) and expect a changed outcome.

Quote
what do you mean it wouldnt reward those that contributed 'nothing.' the fact that ppl believed in the project and actually took risk and bought dvc is not doing nothing. all ppl w/ dvc should be rewarded one way another bc they "contributed" by buying the coin!! hello? they are called passive investors. think community, together, in-this-together, inclusive, teamwork, etc. even as i write this im contributing to the betterment of dvc's future.
The past is over. Gone. Those that contributed nothing by definition wouldn't be further rewarded because they have no skin in the game.

I did say "It may not reward holders".

Gentlemen, please focus your energies on what is best for Devcoin as a whole.

There is not a perfect solution, not a perfectly fair one, yet all we want is to fix Devcoin and put it back on track.

I would like see more thoughts from the community regarding converting old to new. Also, if we should keep forking Bitcoin or maybe move away into another i.e: STEEM, Ethereum, ...

Thanks a lot for the insights so far! Please keep going!
hero member
Activity: 720
Merit: 500
dont just say you dont agree without substantiating. please tell us why you dont agree.
I explained why in previous posts.

Edit: Main change motivation seems to be lower/limited supply and/or deflation. It doesn't therefore seem logical to convert existing supply (particularly a method with perpetual optionality) and expect a changed outcome.

Quote
what do you mean it wouldnt reward those that contributed 'nothing.' the fact that ppl believed in the project and actually took risk and bought dvc is not doing nothing. all ppl w/ dvc should be rewarded one way another bc they "contributed" by buying the coin!! hello? they are called passive investors. think community, together, in-this-together, inclusive, teamwork, etc. even as i write this im contributing to the betterment of dvc's future.
The past is over. Gone. Those that contributed nothing by definition wouldn't be further rewarded because they have no skin in the game.

I did say "It may not reward holders".
member
Activity: 97
Merit: 10
Quote
You would literally be rewarding those that contributed nothing and continually dumped their free coins on the market, which is at least part of what caused this anyways (price was MUCH higher, 120+ satoshis, before a huge influx of people started getting added to the receivers. As more people were added, the more dumps occurred, which can be seen by just following its history).

It may not reward holders but it wouldn't reward those that contributed nothing.

what do you mean it wouldnt reward those that contributed 'nothing.' the fact that ppl believed in the project and actually took risk and bought dvc is not doing nothing. all ppl w/ dvc should be rewarded one way another bc they "contributed" by buying the coin!! hello? they are called passive investors. think community, together, in-this-together, inclusive, teamwork, etc. even as i write this im contributing to the betterment of dvc's future.

member
Activity: 97
Merit: 10
The WORST thing you can do for long-term DVC members/contributors is not reward for existing holding. You would essentially be saying "So you contributed to DVC? Cool. You held your coins instead of dumping them because you believed in the project? Well, you should have just tanked it with the others because now you get nothing at all! Oh, by the way, interested in joining us on a new project?" Anyone that did this would end up with no reason NOT to continually dump at that point, because you'd be showing that it's the "right" thing to do.
I don't agree but share the frustration.

dont just say you dont agree without substantiating. please tell us why you dont agree.
hero member
Activity: 720
Merit: 500
It is just an idea. Not final at all. Just to keep that in mind while designing the whole system.
Constant rate increase looks good until 1 say satoshi reached. Or maybe 10. But later it possible create problems with the exchange with constant increase of "reserve" for future conversions up to enormous amount. It greatly depends on unpredictable conversion demand changing over time.

We need to keep this obvious flaw of this proposal in mind. I can't  even imagine what distribution law applicable to that conversion-rate scheme. Completelly no idea ATM. It prevents me from predicting any demand in conversion with the reasonable rate change approach. Linear 20% a week increase is just for illustrative purpose - no rational behind this figure.
I get where you're coming from. But pragmatically (whatever my own preference) in event of a fork a choice has to be made between best interests of the old vs the new.
Each has potential to hugely undermine the other, so a fix or new is necessary imo. Not something in between.
hero member
Activity: 720
Merit: 500
The WORST thing you can do for long-term DVC members/contributors is not reward for existing holding. You would essentially be saying "So you contributed to DVC? Cool. You held your coins instead of dumping them because you believed in the project? Well, you should have just tanked it with the others because now you get nothing at all! Oh, by the way, interested in joining us on a new project?" Anyone that did this would end up with no reason NOT to continually dump at that point, because you'd be showing that it's the "right" thing to do.
I don't agree but share the frustration.

Quote
You would literally be rewarding those that contributed nothing and continually dumped their free coins on the market, which is at least part of what caused this anyways (price was MUCH higher, 120+ satoshis, before a huge influx of people started getting added to the receivers. As more people were added, the more dumps occurred, which can be seen by just following its history).
It may not reward holders but it wouldn't reward those that contributed nothing. Otherwise that's not generally correct. There are definitely many issues with share allocations/concentrations but shares actually function(ed) as a pseudo measure of difficulty.

We know that:
$ value of share = DVC per share * DVC/BTC * BTC/USD

Just rearranged = DVC/BTC = $ share value/(DVC per share * (BTC/USD))

Therefore the more shares, the higher DVC price. This has always been the biggest issue. The early period of highest prices was an outlier because the few participants were believers rather than participants in a sustainable project.

What's perhaps debatable is whether price leads shares or vice-versa (I think price leads shares) but if you plot the two you'll see they track. What should have happened was an adjustment to dynamic supply where generation is inverse to dvc per share. Or something like that.
newbie
Activity: 57
Merit: 0
Day T is not set at all. That is a idea.

The rate increase is set, not target date.

1 satoshi is not a final target - it is not even a target, it is just an ordinary exchange rate somewhere in future. Next week will give 1.2 satoshi. Another week - another 20% increase etc.

1, 10, 100, 1000 satoshis per DVC to be a reached someday with gradual exchange rate increase. But without any deadlines. Rate increase can be slowed down over the time
I think the rate increase idea would be a fundamental mistake. Not sure how else to explain why so will leave it at that.

It is just an idea. Not final at all. Just to keep that in mind while designing the whole system.
Constant rate increase looks good until 1 say satoshi reached. Or maybe 10. But later it possible create problems with the exchange with constant increase of "reserve" for future conversions up to enormous amount. It greatly depends on unpredictable conversion demand changing over time.

We need to keep this obvious flaw of this proposal in mind. I can't  even imagine what distribution law applicable to that conversion-rate scheme. Completelly no idea ATM. It prevents me from predicting any demand in conversion with the reasonable rate change approach. Linear 20% a week increase is just for illustrative purpose - no rational behind this figure.
hero member
Activity: 720
Merit: 500
Day T is not set at all. That is a idea.

The rate increase is set, not target date.

1 satoshi is not a final target - it is not even a target, it is just an ordinary exchange rate somewhere in future. Next week will give 1.2 satoshi. Another week - another 20% increase etc.

1, 10, 100, 1000 satoshis per DVC to be a reached someday with gradual exchange rate increase. But without any deadlines. Rate increase can be slowed down over the time
I think the rate increase idea would be a fundamental mistake. Not sure how else to explain why so will leave it at that.
legendary
Activity: 1988
Merit: 1007
You would literally be rewarding those that contributed nothing and continually dumped their free coins on the market, which is at least part of what caused this anyways (price was MUCH higher, 120+ satoshis, before a huge influx of people started getting added to the receivers. As more people were added, the more dumps occurred, which can be seen by just following its history).

Just take a look at the price chart:
https://coinmarketcap.com/currencies/devcoin/

DVC was dumped all the time. Just from the beginning.
And it will be repeated with the new coin unless significant changes to reward distribution system. Even small fraction of existing devcoins converted to a new one will ruin new coin in days. I'm trying to develop reasonable way to sort it out with not devcoin holders left behind.

It will be very hard task.

I am actually 100% on board with the method provided whereby they'd convert for very little and after a year or two would be worth full value and keep going higher. This does two things: as you stated, it would keep the dumping from happening in the beginning, and at the same time would offer a PoS-like setup for existing users that rewards the longer-term holders.
newbie
Activity: 57
Merit: 0
Day T is not set.
It depents on patience and greed Smiley
So Day T will be distributed over some time, possible years.
It can help to aviod appearence of Day T on day 1. Even on day 100, 200 etc.
Take a look at Coingather - there are hundred of millions ready to dump. But there are no buy side - no possibilities to dump now.

Once conversion to new coin will be in place - all these hundred of millions will be dumped ruining the exchange rate of new coin to virtually zero.
It doesn't matter whether day T is set. The issue is the scale of existing optionality.

Devcoin's basic problem is already patience/greed vs. 'reward os dev'. People are people and doesn't seem much point starting anew to immediately rely on a different result from that trade-off.

"Once conversion to new coin.." - that's my point. I don't know what the solution is but would certainly be better to force all conversion at 1000:1 on day 1 (0.16 btc equiv) than 1:1 on day T (160 btc equiv).

Day T is not set at all. That is a idea.

The rate increase is set, not target date.

1 satoshi is not a final target - it is not even a target, it is just an ordinary exchange rate somewhere in future. Next week will give 1.2 satoshi. Another week - another 20% increase etc.

1, 10, 100, 1000 satoshis per DVC to be a reached someday with gradual exchange rate increase. But without any deadlines. Rate increase can be slowed down over the time



DVC distribution likely very concentrated and biggest holders those with the greatest power yet reluctance to change things. If you think current form doesn't work why [increasingly] reward holdouts? (that may include me btw). I don't get the point of conversion, but if anything the rate should get increasingly worse, not better.
I'm personally against any conversion/renewal actions.

New coin should be the new one without any "premining" heritage from old coin.

...

But, again, I'm strictly against any conversions for old devcoin. Just let it die and do not try to dig out its corpse.

The WORST thing you can do for long-term DVC members/contributors is not reward for existing holding. You would essentially be saying "So you contributed to DVC? Cool. You held your coins instead of dumping them because you believed in the project? Well, you should have just tanked it with the others because now you get nothing at all! Oh, by the way, interested in joining us on a new project?" Anyone that did this would end up with no reason NOT to continually dump at that point, because you'd be showing that it's the "right" thing to do.

You would literally be rewarding those that contributed nothing and continually dumped their free coins on the market, which is at least part of what caused this anyways (price was MUCH higher, 120+ satoshis, before a huge influx of people started getting added to the receivers. As more people were added, the more dumps occurred, which can be seen by just following its history).
I have contributed a lot. And have a lot of DVC. They are worthless now. If there will be no conversion to a new coin in the future - no problem. No changes to my DVC wallet - zero stays zero.




You would literally be rewarding those that contributed nothing and continually dumped their free coins on the market, which is at least part of what caused this anyways (price was MUCH higher, 120+ satoshis, before a huge influx of people started getting added to the receivers. As more people were added, the more dumps occurred, which can be seen by just following its history).

Just take a look at the price chart:
https://coinmarketcap.com/currencies/devcoin/

DVC was dumped all the time. Just from the beginning.
And it will be repeated with the new coin unless significant changes to reward distribution system. Even small fraction of existing devcoins converted to a new one will ruin new coin in days. I'm trying to develop reasonable way to sort it out with not devcoin holders left behind.

It will be very hard task.
legendary
Activity: 1988
Merit: 1007
DVC distribution likely very concentrated and biggest holders those with the greatest power yet reluctance to change things. If you think current form doesn't work why [increasingly] reward holdouts? (that may include me btw). I don't get the point of conversion, but if anything the rate should get increasingly worse, not better.
I'm personally against any conversion/renewal actions.

New coin should be the new one without any "premining" heritage from old coin.

...

But, again, I'm strictly against any conversions for old devcoin. Just let it die and do not try to dig out its corpse.

The WORST thing you can do for long-term DVC members/contributors is not reward for existing holding. You would essentially be saying "So you contributed to DVC? Cool. You held your coins instead of dumping them because you believed in the project? Well, you should have just tanked it with the others because now you get nothing at all! Oh, by the way, interested in joining us on a new project?" Anyone that did this would end up with no reason NOT to continually dump at that point, because you'd be showing that it's the "right" thing to do.

You would literally be rewarding those that contributed nothing and continually dumped their free coins on the market, which is at least part of what caused this anyways (price was MUCH higher, 120+ satoshis, before a huge influx of people started getting added to the receivers. As more people were added, the more dumps occurred, which can be seen by just following its history).
hero member
Activity: 720
Merit: 500
Day T is not set.
It depents on patience and greed Smiley
So Day T will be distributed over some time, possible years.
It can help to aviod appearence of Day T on day 1. Even on day 100, 200 etc.
Take a look at Coingather - there are hundred of millions ready to dump. But there are no buy side - no possibilities to dump now.

Once conversion to new coin will be in place - all these hundred of millions will be dumped ruining the exchange rate of new coin to virtually zero.
It doesn't matter whether day T is set. The issue is the scale of existing optionality.

Devcoin's basic problem is already patience/greed vs. 'reward os dev'. People are people and doesn't seem much point starting anew to immediately rely on a different result from that trade-off.

"Once conversion to new coin.." - that's my point. I don't know what the solution is but would certainly be better to force all conversion at 1000:1 on day 1 (0.16 btc equiv) than 1:1 on day T (160 btc equiv).
newbie
Activity: 57
Merit: 0
Day T is not set.
It depents on patience and greed Smiley
So Day T will be distributed over some time, possible years.
It can help to aviod appearence of Day T on day 1. Even on day 100, 200 etc.
Take a look at Coingather - there are hundred of millions ready to dump. But there are no buy side - no possibilities to dump now.

Once conversion to new coin will be in place - all these hundred of millions will be dumped ruining the exchange rate of new coin to virtually zero.
hero member
Activity: 720
Merit: 500
Yes. Exactly. Dump later not now.
It new coin will not succeed - then better rate never become a reality, but if we put good conversion from the beginning - there will be no future at all.
And rational holders should be rewarded a bit, doesnt it?

Just give a new coin some time to breathe and gain strength. Do not "premine" or give any other possibilities to dump coins just from the beginning.
Ok but in practice, for example:

Day 1: New coin, deflation/limited generation.
Day 1: Option to convert at 1000:1 sat equivalent - no thanks.
Day 8: Option to convert at 800:1 sat - no thanks.
...
Day T: Option to convert at 1:1 sat. Equivalent of 16 billion old coins (160 btc) dumped into existence.

Makes little sense. Price today is the knowable discounted future value. People are not stupid. If I know it's coming on future day T that will affect my choices today. Even more undermining if I know that conversion optionality can be exercised at any time - i.e. the option is perpetual.
newbie
Activity: 57
Merit: 0
You want to force devcoin holders to dump all coins at the beginning of new coin?
Then there should be an enormous source of new coins for conversion of old devcoin to new ones.

I'm personally against any conversion/renewal actions...
I'm saying that if you increasingly reward holdouts, rational holders will obviously just dump all coins at the last possible moment instead.
And at a better rate, which would undermine above objectives (deflation, price etc) far more.

(this is just about what's been discussed, not necessarily my own opinion where I agree it should just be a new project).

Yes. Exactly. Dump later not now.
It new coin will not succeed - then better rate never become a reality, but if we put good conversion from the beginning - there will be no future at all.
And rational holders should be rewarded a bit, doesnt it?

Just give a new coin some time to breathe and gain strength. Do not "premine" or give any other possibilities to dump coins just from the beginning.
hero member
Activity: 720
Merit: 500
You want to force devcoin holders to dump all coins at the beginning of new coin?
Then there should be an enormous source of new coins for conversion of old devcoin to new ones.

I'm personally against any conversion/renewal actions...
I'm saying that if you increasingly reward holdouts, rational holders will obviously just dump all coins at the last possible moment instead.
And at a better rate, which would undermine above objectives (deflation, price etc) far more.

(this is just about what's been discussed, not necessarily my own opinion where I agree it should just be a new project).
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