Topic: Economic Devastation - page 143. (Read 504811 times)

Despite your correct analysis of finite/infinite and mean, the problem with the economic debt is we're not dealing "real world".

"'Communism' is not a movement of the downtrodden masses but is a movement created, manipulated and used by power-seeking billionaires in order to gain control over the world...first by establishing socialist governments in the various nations and then consolidating them all through a 'Great Merger,' into an all-powerful world socialist super-state probably under the auspices of the United Nations."  - Gary Allen in None Dare Call It Conspiracy page 34.

All those who have sought dictatorial control over modern nations have understood the necessity of a central bank. When the League of Just Men hired a hack revolutionary named Karl Marx to write a blueprint for conquest called The Communist Manefesto, the fifth plank read: 'Centralization of credit in the hands of the state, by means of a national bank with state capital and an exclusive monopoly.' Lenin later said that the establishment of a central bank was ninety percent of communizing a country. Such conspirators knew that you cannot take control of a nation without military force unless that nation has a central bank through which you can control its economy. - None Dare Call It Conspiracy page 40.

"Radical movements are never successful unless they attract big money and/or outside support. The great historian of the Twentieth Century, Oswald Spengler, was one of those who saw what American Liberals refuse to see--that the Left is controlled by its alleged enemy, the malefactors of great wealth. - None Dare Call It Conspiracy page 57.

Very worthwhile reading.

The answer is infinity as the debt can never be paid off. It is mathamatically impossible under the current system.The debt in agregate can only grow. I will show why this is the case and why the hotel room example you cited above is wrong when I have more time.


This analogy actually understates the problem. If the debt problem required only constant work to maintain society could bear it easily as society is very productive. In truth the debt problem requires an ever increasing burden on society to maintain the status quo.  

this is an obvious deflection after i pointed out that the bolded statement is not only decidedly false, but also completely absurd. i'm not sure if you were simply trying to downplay the point, but if you actually believe what you said then that alone shows a lack of understanding of the situation.

AnonyMint is not arguing with you that overall debt = broad money supply that is simple fact.
What he is challenging is your claim that the current structure makes no difference unless it cause a loan repayment to work its way back up to the central bank as well as your implication that that the current debt = broad money system is fundamentally sound if properly regulated.

He is correct. The current system is unsound, unstable, and guaranteed to eventually collapse regardless of regulation. However, understanding why is not at all easy. In essence there are two overlapping cycles which I call the microparasitic and macroparasitic cycle. Banks via fractional reserve banking cause boom and bust cycles on a local level siphoning wealth in an unstable process that eventually collapses and leads to bank runs. Later on a macro level banks capture government to backstop each of these local collapses. Subsequent collapse then cause a run on government finances. Government debt grows ever larger with each micro cycle until the debt burden of government becomes unsustainable. At this point the we get asset confiscations, governmental collapse, and perhaps war.

This is just a summary not a satisfactory explanation. A full explanation requires us to wade into the swamp that is central banking, expose the common lies that are taught in many economic textbooks, and fully explore their implications. This debate has inspired me to write said explanation but it is going to be several pages long as the system is complex. Due to work obligations it may take me 2-3 weeks to get this done. Please check back.      

http://blog.mpettis.com/2014/03/will-emerging-markets-come-back/#comment-22623

Must read.

That people actually have faith and belief in the "prophecies" of a mouldy old tome written by self-hating mysoginists, most of whom lived in caves hiding from the Romans because the Romans knew they were nuts,  never stops amazing me.

My $.02.

We've had this debate already and I already won it with a slam dunk:

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.5654081

Answers: 1) The taxpayer 2) None so the loans will be charged to the taxpayer 3) The police, courts, and tax authority are very good at seizing assets and making sure people pay taxes.
 

Agreed, I would call that process socialism. It could also be called collectivism which is the same thing.  
There was a time in US history when our leaders understood the dangers.


When asked to name his greatest accomplishment Jackson replied simply "I killed the bank"
He is also the only president to ever pay off the national debt.


Sadly we were not vigilant. It took 77 years but the bank rose from the dead. Pushback against collectivism has subsequently grown more feeble with each successive generation. The irresistible trend is towards ever greater centralization, ever greater loss of fitness, and ever greater taxation. It will continue until the system collapses. In the US we complain about these problems but the US is actually one of the healthiest countries. We will be among the last to fail. The design of our government and a strong libertarian minority have given us a degree of resistance. It is not immunity (far from it) rather we are simply succumbing at a slower rate to the disease. It is our exported "freedom" that is the most virulent.

Re. global debt (and its circa $150 trillion).

What is the loan secured on ? What is the debtors ability to pay ? What is the creditors ability to enforce repayment ?

A buddy of mine was recently made bankrupt - he was not on his own.

  The bank couldn't seize his assets because by the time he was made bankrupt he had none 

  He still lives and breathes and eats and walks his dog - he is happy even. In fact, he is more happy today than when he had a pile of debt hanging around his neck.

    The bank has had to write off his debt - though ultimately public money is being used to put right the banks losses, which for me is the crux of the problem today.

that's not what this means at all. it would take 3.13 years to repay only if every profit made globally was applied to the debt for that entire period of time. which is impossible because everybody would starve and/or freeze to death in about a month...

http://blog.mpettis.com/2014/03/will-emerging-markets-come-back/#comment-21244


See also:

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.5775371

Information price is according to how easy it is to access. Internet might make it priceless but at same time it is good thing.

Money is simply a medium of exchange. Eliminate money and all you have done is limit the ability to trade goods and services.
In a hypothetical society without currency power lies with those who control the means of production. A society without currency lacks the ability to effectively trade as barter is highly inefficient. Individuals in such a world would be completely dependent on the producers in this case robots. So who gets to own or control the robots?

If the answer is we all do equally or the government does and the people control the government the system is communism. See the Definition of Communism.


This could work as a form of base human income funded by taxation on a prosperous overall competitive economy. However, the key operative word is sustainable meaning resources have to be rationed in such a system. This circles us back to the question of how do we achieve said rationing?

What I like about the Dark Enlightenment (which I had actually never heard of prior to a month ago) is that it has given me a ton of outside the box thinking to look through. Each of those little dots on the map above is a blog of some sort. I am sure some of it will be garbage but there will also be gems. I have started with the political philosophy of Menicus Moldbug since he is described as the founder of the neoreactionaries (the purple section of the map). His Gentle Introduction to Unqualified Reservations is essentially a detailed walk-through of Complaint the Third: Democracy is a failure. It's a very long but fascinating read.

Regarding technological surplus requiring new operating paradigms, I'm pretty sure that for the indefinite future people will use their social leverage to increase their power, and that social leverage will be primarily monetary or military for as far out as I can usefully plan.  That said, if a critical mass of talent were to focus efforts on creating a sustainable autonomic technical system incorporating productive capacity to support the full human life-cycle, it would probably be doable in a decade or two.  It's very analogous to a moon shot with 1960s tech, but more achievable, less of a stretch.  I imagine any such community of interest would have to be quite wealthy, and open-ended, with a strong coherent vision to which people would attach/detach over time.  Hard to see it happening without a personality cult of leadership, but a strongly coherent thesis could attract highly rationalistic people, just as e.g. the strongly coherent King leadership attracted highly moralistic people during the civil rights movement.  Once the system works, it should provide essentially unlimited surplus as it would have to be self-replicating in order to be sustainable against shock, so expanding it to all willing persons would be feasible.  The cultic aspects are likely to repel many, however, at least in a first generation.

Creating plenty would of course make the system an enemy of those who gain their power by enforcing scarcity.  There would be blood.

It didn't actually communicate anything.  More like a clipping from a thinly worn farthing perhaps.  Or a vague shininess left on a rough surface after you dragged a cupronickel clad coin across the surface.  Or maybe just the smell of thinking about it.

Communism is a monetary based system, The venus project advocates a system where money simply no longer exists.

I don't see how the venus project relates to communism, In the venus project there is no "To each according to his ability and needs" It's more like "Are you a human being? then you should have a home,food, and access to technology and transportation"

There are no "jobs" in the venus project, There are no business or corporations, It advocates replacing the role of man as a cog in the machine with robots and computers to do the drudgery.