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Topic: Economic Devastation - page 147. (Read 504776 times)

legendary
Activity: 1946
Merit: 1055
February 14, 2014, 11:22:04 PM
CoinCube. AGW is a fraud. Environmentalism/Conservationism is a fraud. Rockefeller created and funded these.

Your leader Ted Turner...

My leader Huh

Perhaps we should define our terms I am referring to the type of conservationism advocated by Sylva in 1664 who predates Rockefeller.

Calling anthropogenic global warming a fraud is a very strong statement. It implies that the evidence conclusively shows that humans are not in any way contributing to increasing temperatures. You are voluntarily shifting the burden of proof. Unless the fraud you are referring to is the political push to tax industry regardless of the cause of the current warming. In this case your statement is overly terse.




hero member
Activity: 518
Merit: 521
February 14, 2014, 06:58:27 PM
CoinCube. AGW is a fraud. Environmentalism/Conservationism is a fraud. Rockefeller created and funded these.

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.3943834
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.4018527
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.4018815
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.5146060
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.3088064
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.4021602
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.4021654
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EjmtSkl53h4

Your leader Ted Turner who has conserved more land and Buffalo than any other human, is purported to have funded the Georgia Guidestones which call for culling the population to 500 million. That hypocrite calls for one or two child policy yet has several children himself.
hero member
Activity: 518
Merit: 521
February 14, 2014, 06:23:46 PM
legendary
Activity: 1946
Merit: 1055
February 14, 2014, 02:48:45 PM
Armstrong does an excellent deconstruction the Malthusian lies.

http://armstrongeconomics.com/2014/02/13/global-warming-why-it-is-nonsense/

This is interesting to me as I used to be a global warming believer. I never had a chance to look into the data myself and global warming seemed to be the consensus view of the experts in the area.

I looked up Sallie Baliunas (the astrophysicist who argued that global warming was due to cyclical variations in the sun rather then human activity). What really stood out to me was what happened after she published her 2003 article on the subject.

Quote
An editorial revolt followed, with half of the journal's 10 editors eventually resigning, and the publisher subsequently stated that critics said that the conclusions of the paper "cannot be concluded convincingly from the evidence provided.... the article had gone to four reviewers none of whom had recommended rejection.

The reaction is perhaps as important as the paper itself. Events like this and the outright censorship of climate skeptics I have seen elsewhere are major red flags that objective discourse has broken down.

So I changed my opinion to undecided.

Could humanity be causing some global warming? Temperatures are warmer now then they have been in the recent past so it is possible. However, to become a global warming alarmist I would need convincing proof of the following.

1) That humans are responsible for the current warming and it is not due to sun activity or random variation. (This answer to this should become more clear with time)
2) The economic costs of warming exceed the benefits. (Lots of cold areas that will benefit from a little warming)
3) We should tackle this now instead of in the future. (Technology will be much better in the future and the costs to reduce human impact less burdensome)

I am a conservationist. I believe it is important to protect and preserve natural resources for their continued sustainable use by humans. Much of modern environmentalism (the bloated descendant of conservationism) seems to have forgotten the human component. This is part of the reason why everyone hates environmentalist but you will be hard pressed to find people who hate conservationist.
hero member
Activity: 518
Merit: 521
February 13, 2014, 04:14:58 PM
Armstrong does an excellent deconstruction the Malthusian lies.

http://armstrongeconomics.com/2014/02/13/global-warming-why-it-is-nonsense/
newbie
Activity: 15
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February 13, 2014, 12:04:09 AM
a more anonymous coin to much to pick apart there moving on
legendary
Activity: 1680
Merit: 1035
February 12, 2014, 01:43:54 PM
Additionally, I believe that mining of bitcoin is unsustainable and the 'next altcoin' will have a feature in which the mining SERVES A PURPOSE similar to PrimeCoin or the proposed CureCoin.  SETIcoin.  Whatever.

Serving a purpose other than money is not a good thing in currency. WHat if the purpose that was mined for was fully served, and there is no more need for it? Will miners just stop mining, letting the coin die? Will coin prices drop dramatically, because the part of their value that was service a purpose disapeared?
Mining should have one and only purpose: to provide security for transactions. That's it.
newbie
Activity: 38
Merit: 0
February 12, 2014, 12:27:46 PM
I am reading alot of black and white perspective on economic divisions, the movement of labor and technical progression of our society.  The way capitalist markets work, may very well fail in the future.  There is alot of support here and in history that could identify capitalism, and current socio-economic conditions, as failing to redistribute wealth appropriately.

Alternatively, I do believe that all progress is built in fits of starts and stops.  Layers build on top of layers until we reach the present day. To argue that an entire system or way of life is going to completely disappear completely defies the laws of existence.

Consider labor and the workforce.  It is quite possible that technology will replace the majority of skilled labor, and a large portion of blue collar labor.  What is hard to quantify is the degree at which technology removes jobs as well as creates jobs. 

Take an industry such as forestry for example.  Rewind time 150 years to pre 1900's.  At that time, men would chop down trees with axes and two man saws.  There was no heavy equipment, no chain saws, no forestry equipment, no trucks.  When that machinery was developed, it was a crushing blow to many of the men that would be required to cut down forests by hand!  What a shock it must have been, and oh how technology was killing jobs!

Now fast forward to current day.  We have heavy machinery, sure, but that machinery requires manpower to run it. It creates additional jobs in the form of Engineers that have to create the heavy machinery.  This creates demand for heavy metals and rubber and plastics, as well as fuel for the equipment.  There is safety equipment that men wear as well, a whole new industry of protective glasses and hard helmets that did not exist before.  Consider that scientists spend time researching deforestation and climate change, and as such have also created jobs in industries that are symbiotic with forestry.  Additionally, forestry companies employee teams of planters to replant forests and create renewable sources of lumber.  Also consider that land is being bought and sold by realtors to the forestry companies for the purposes of harvesting.

To argue that the future of technology will ultimately completely destroy entire systems, would be a fallacy.  Systems are created naturally over time and tend to be built on top of each other, with some portions regressing dramatically until new progress is built on the old layers.  Given time we are going to see tremendous change in our economies and our labor markets. What exactly will come of all this is impossible to quantify.
sr. member
Activity: 370
Merit: 250
February 12, 2014, 10:08:14 AM
Quote
"the security of the network can not be incredibly tiny compared to the market cap*
* yet another reason we need a CPU-only coin, so the currency users (i.e. spenders) are the miners.

Yes!!!  I THOUGHT OF THAT TOO!  In the future all of us will be mining solo or pools and or acting as nodes to keep this whole thing together.  Additionally, I believe that mining of bitcoin is unsustainable and the 'next altcoin' will have a feature in which the mining SERVES A PURPOSE similar to PrimeCoin or the proposed CureCoin.  SETIcoin.  Whatever.  There will be dozens maybe hundreds of altcoins that serve a purpose due to the mining and that is where the VALUE is created and makes all of this something bigger than a zero sum investment ponzi.

first post.  i've been lurking here for too long

Securing the transaction history is a purpose enough, but I like primecoin for the reason that searching for prime numbers feels more secure as a proof of work than any NSA-designed hash function Smiley
Still I would also like to see all this cpu power to be used in a massive solver for a planned economy, maybe if we also add in the transactions the respective good or services bought and sold will do the trick, making the blockchain the ultimate global market log

EDIT: seems we have already this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Trade_Item_Number
Any related encoding/accounting number for services?
legendary
Activity: 1946
Merit: 1055
February 12, 2014, 09:40:54 AM
On a comic note people advertising bitcoin gambling in their signatures have been spamming the economics forum posting fantastic insights such as.

"This is so wow"
and
"That is pretty cool"

I am insulted. They spammed the threads above and below this one but didn't post here. Personally I don't see what the problem is. I think economic devastation and gambling are a natural fit  Grin

first post.  i've been lurking here for too long

Welcome to our friendly talk on economic devastation (and related topics). Your first post was far better then mine. I think I posted something meaningless in the newbie jail if I recall.
newbie
Activity: 6
Merit: 0
February 12, 2014, 04:37:58 AM
"the security of the network can not be incredibly tiny compared to the market cap*
* yet another reason we need a CPU-only coin, so the currency users (i.e. spenders) are the miners.
[/quote]

Yes!!!  I THOUGHT OF THAT TOO!  In the future all of us will be mining solo or pools and or acting as nodes to keep this whole thing together.  Additionally, I believe that mining of bitcoin is unsustainable and the 'next altcoin' will have a feature in which the mining SERVES A PURPOSE similar to PrimeCoin or the proposed CureCoin.  SETIcoin.  Whatever.  There will be dozens maybe hundreds of altcoins that serve a purpose due to the mining and that is where the VALUE is created and makes all of this something bigger than a zero sum investment ponzi.

first post.  i've been lurking here for too long
legendary
Activity: 1946
Merit: 1055
February 11, 2014, 11:02:28 PM
Looks like some of the ideas discussed upthread are making it into the mainstream media.

This guy in Forbes is essentially arguing that cryptocurrency is going to bifurcate into an anonymous coin and a bank coin.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/billfrezza/2014/02/07/why-bitcoin-must-die-long-live-bitcoin-2-0/

Makes me wonder if he is reading this forum.
hero member
Activity: 518
Merit: 521
sr. member
Activity: 370
Merit: 250
February 06, 2014, 05:43:48 PM

I contend that it's not logically possible to fully comprehend what life is. It seems pretty obvious to me (though others might disagree) that any insight into the nature of life is introspective, and introspection alters that which is being studied. I wonder what Gödel would say?
He could say something if life was a turing machine equivalent, but I think intelligence is a higher model than life, so intelligence can describe life.
Consciousness he argues is therefore the mind/individual/operating system that runs the individual and controls the 'motion of the atoms'.
This could get incredibly complex. Intuitively, it seems to work both ways: we exert effort over our bodies, yet we also receive various inputs that tell us about an outside world. We could go with a Monist interpretation and say that our brain-minds are fundamentally made of the same substance as all the other atoms. But I'm not altogether happy with such an interpretation. Monist materialism seems too dry and devoid of spirit or other human concepts like will (as in "willpower").

It seems convenient that there should be a separate layer, perhaps an underlying substrate on which the material world is built, or a "complementary half" if calling it a substrate seems unfair.

Information, that's under everything... information and computation

One thing that I'm wondering about is the apparent 'oneness' of my mind, and the unawareness of having billions of neurons solving some problem. Why would consciousness feel like it's concentrated at a point if it's supposedly distributed across a huge amount of organic matter? Perhaps it's non-physical and therefore dimensionless? A dualist interpretation seems like a much better fit for this simple observation. The existence of "other" conscious entities (i.e.: the minds of people that are not you) could then be easily explained as poor communication.
I think conciousness and free will are reserved only for the top level of an organization, all the lower layers simply compute.


Further, I still haven't heard a satisfying explanation to the apparent dichotomy of entropic force and free will. If I really rack my brains and dig through some old discussions, I could probably prove (informally) that free will exists. Yet that would imply that entropy does not always increase, and that it's not the be-all-and-end-all of life.


My take is free will is just degrees of freedom which let you produce more entropy (more dimensions to radiate heat to-on a physical analogy), therefore it can sustain itself (the structure) from this access to new dimensions by controlling flow there, so entropy can still increase, even with the structure there. I think this process is behind gravity,life and intelligence
sr. member
Activity: 370
Merit: 250
February 04, 2014, 11:28:43 AM
Some things to consider:
1. Entropy has 5 definitions, we must be carefull when we use that word Wink I prefer the definition as "Non available Information"
2. The landscapes you discused are static, but the world is a dynamic terrain not to mention that it shifts under the "explorers" weight, the search for a maxima (local/global) is an ongoing (never ending) progress.

This is why propably we have extinction events...

To get your train of thought further...

If we follow life's example within an multicell organism we could see a socialist structure, while the organism itself could behave anarchic.

I think that those strategies in nature are not neccesary competing, rather layered, and the apparent competition maybe nothing more than the formation of a new top layer. It could well be that only the top layer can behave anarchic (has more degrees of freedom), but all the supporting layers are "socialist" .

It could be that the "head" needs more freedom to explore, but the body needs more efficiency to sustain

Examples: the wild west, Internet, Web, when they formed they behaved anarchic but as they were burried under (becoming infrastructure) they became socialized (standarized)

Right now the top layer of human societies is not the Citizen, but the Corporation. That was evident in the "European Constitution".
So I could conclude that a socialist citizen layer/scape, and an anarchic Corporation layer, is very close to how nature works. That of course until super-corporations form ie clusters/funds that will try to impose themselves as the anarchic layer. and so on...

That doesnot mean that there is an not an interlayer powergame over who is on top and enjoys the most freedom. Power to the people actually means citizens on top Wink

 
legendary
Activity: 1946
Merit: 1055
February 04, 2014, 02:02:21 AM
#99
Here is a treat that can give you a diffrent perspective
http://whatislife.stanford.edu/LoCo_files/What-is-Life.pdf

Thank you for this. It has helped me to put together some thoughts that were floating around in my head and develop my defense of socialism.
As I can think of few things more amusing then defending socialism in this particular forum I cannot resist posting it here.

Socialism is both inevitable and necessary. Furthermore, this fact is both consistent with and can be derived from the economic theory discussed up-thread.
The anarchist philosophy undervalues the utility of socialism. This is unsurprising because anarchism it is the antithesis of socialism. The anarchist critique focuses on the current problems of socialism in our era. Socialism today has many flaws the worst of which is the power vacuum that allows special interests to capture government and force their losses onto the collective. Indeed socialism is currently growing unrestrained. It is a system out of balance and if not brought into equilibrium it must inevitably collapse. Nevertheless, despite our current socialist excess, it must not be overlooked that some degree of socialism is needed both to find optimal fitness and improve the human condition.

The anarchist questions if socialism has any utility. Indeed any defense of socialism must show that socialism is more then simply chains on our individual ankles. Socialism at its heart involves taking from the productive/fit and giving to the less productive or less fit. What could be lost by discarding it so that individuals can optimize more freely?
The religious among us might argue that socialism is morally required. The idealist might argue that it is needed because of social justice. However, to challenge the anarchist regarding the need for socialism we must battle him on his own turf. We must show that socialism is needed using materialism and empiricism.

The need for socialism arises from the flaws in unrestrained anarchism. Anarchism if left unchecked leads to an excessively steep fitness curve (extreme survival of the fittest scenario). Why is this sub-optimal? The problem with a steep fitness curves is that it forces convergence to the nearest optimal state. This improves immediate population fitness, but it does so at the cost of long term adaptation and progress. Steep fitness curves have been shown to reduce the rate of evolutionary change (link below).

http://www.ploscompbiol.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pcbi.1000187

The proper role of socialism is to help ensure trailblazers survive long enough to eliminate economic friction. In a landscape with a steep fitness curve these individuals may not survive or succeed (crossing these barriers involves significant cost). We can get stuck in a higher valley (of the N dimensional solution space).    

In its most extreme form anarchism can drive the entropy of society past the error threshold at which point information is destroyed rather than created.  This is a dark age and is indeed possible. Dark ages arise from the death throes of excessive socialism. Like a spring pushed too far in one direction a system trying to find equilibrium is likely to overshoot in the opposite direction when the unstable order dissolves. The backlash against anarchism in the industrial era lead to communism. The collapse of socialism may lead us to the next dark age.

Error threshold was developed from Quasispecies Theory by Eigen and Schuster to describe the dynamics of replicating nucleic acid under the influence of mutation and selection.
life like civilization requires entropy/anarchy to exist, but critically such entropy must be limited and contained. If life was without entropy no change would arise and evolution would cease. On the other hand, evolution is also be impossible if the entropy/error rate is too high (only a few mutation produce an improvement, but most lead to deterioration). Error threshold allows us to quantify the resulting minimal replication accuracy (ie maximal mutation/entropy rate) that still maintains adaptation.

This can be shown analytically at its clearest in the extreme example of a simple replicating organism that lives on a fitness landscape which contains a single peak of fitness x > 1 with all other variations having a fitness of 1. With an infinite population there is a phase transition at a particular error rate p (the mutation rate at each loci in a genetic sequence). This critical error rate is determined analytically to be p = ln(x)/L (where L is the chromosome length). When this mutation/entropy rate is exceeded the proportion of the infinite population on the fitness peak drops to chance levels.

The can be thought of intuitively as a balance between exploitation and exploration in search. In the limit of zero entropy/change successive generations of selection remove all variety from the population and the population converges to a single point. If the entropy/mutation rates are too excessive the evolutionary process degenerates into random search with no exploitation of the information acquired in preceding generations. Thus the optimum entropy rate should maximize the search but is subject to the constraint of not losing information already gained.

In the end our goal is congruence or harmony. We must eliminate all necessary barriers to finding global optima. Increased degrees-of-freedom in one sub-area such as the convergence forced by unrestrained anarchism is potentially sub optimal, ineffective, and perhaps counter-productive. Unrestrained anarchism does not eliminate all necessary barriers. Instead it forces conformity to the nearest local optima effectively raising barriers to distant more global optima.

Socialism and anarchism can be thought of as two opposing extremes in constant opposition. Anarchism is needed to combat the evils/suboptimal outcomes of unrestrained socialism (This is convincing demonstrated in the economic theory up-thread). However, it is also true that socialism is likewise needed to combat the evils/suboptimal outcomes of unrestrained anarchism. Neither socialism nor anarchism is superior they are simply opposing forces. The optimum result requires us to balance these forces. The solutions of the anarchist are the right ones in our time only because we live in an era of excess socialism. As human history has a tendency to repeat there will likely come a time in the future when the solutions of the socialist are superior.
    
References:
Eigen, M., & Schuster, P. (1979). The Hypercycle: A Principle of Natural Self-Organization. Springer-Verlag.
Ochoa G., Harvey I, Buxton, H. Optimal Mutation Rates and Selection Pressure in Genetic Algorithms. Proc. Genetic and Evolutionary Computation Conference 2000
Clune J, Misevic D, Ofria C, Lenski RE, Elena SF, Sanjuán R. Natural Selection Fails to Optimize Mutation Rates for Long-Term Adaptation on Rugged Fitness Landscapes. PLOS September 26, 2008


Edit: I wanted to post the conclusion achieved in another thread regarding how the above thoughts on socialism fit in with the economic theory discussed upthread

Is a Madmax outcome coming before 2020? Thus do we need anonymity

I posit that socialism is both inevitable and necessary.

I posit socialism is a relic that will no longer be needed

We have both thesis and antithesis. Lets see if synthesis can be achieved.

I agree with your economic analysis above.
We also agree that failure to converge to an optima will occur if a dynamic system is entirely unconstrained.

You state that socialism cannot provide this constraint because of the power vacuum. You likewise argue that for similar reasons socialism cannot be used to smooth the fitness curve.

However, I contend that you have already proposed a working solution to the power vacuum (anonymous cryptocurrency). The iron law of political economics aka power vacuum breaks down once governments lose the ability to debase the currency.

In a post fiat Knowledge Era government would be forced to live on a fixed income (taxation of the physical economy). Government can try to increase taxes on the physical economy but this would be self limiting once the ability to debase the currency is lost.  Socialism would thus be limited in size to a portion of the physical economy. With the power vacuum solved socialism is freed to play its proper role of required constraint on the dynamic system and smoothing of the fitness curve.

Nothing in your analysis presented so far demonstrates that the physical economy must shrink in absolute size. You have only shown that it must progressively shrink in relative size. It is entirely possible that both the physical economy and the resources consumed by socialism will continuously grow while simultaneously fading into insignificance.

If you argue for the complete death of socialism then some other model/social contract will be needed to provide our required constraint. Any system developed is likely to look a lot like socialism.

As this is your fundamental insight we are exploring it is only polite not to claim the last word. I will now bow out and leave it to you.


CoinCube, excellent summary. We are now entirely in agreement.

However, note it appears that the socialism will attempt to overshoot before it stabilizes in diminishing role. I don't know if anonymity will rise sufficiently fast enough to provide extensive relief from (and thus limit) this overshoot.

I recently had the epipheny upthread (see quote below) that the coming world government and world currency are a way to increase the economy-of-scale of the diminishing socialism component, so it can survive and be more efficient. This insight is similar to the logic I applied in 2010 to predict the European Union would not disintegrate. Note the developing world is still predominately physical (not knowledge) economies.
sr. member
Activity: 476
Merit: 250
January 27, 2014, 03:28:48 AM
#98
When it gets right down to it, do the elite care?

No.

Become one of the eilte through crypto and fuck it all!

My $.02.

Wink
sr. member
Activity: 370
Merit: 250
January 26, 2014, 10:52:34 PM
#97
Accumulating entropy in the living systems is what death is about.
Even mechanical systems can tap entropic sources for reasons Wink say rand()


Yet it is also what evolution, adaptation, and perhaps creativity are about.

If a system has been formed by and relies on entropy to survive is it truly a mechanical system?

It relies on negative entropy to survive, a potential must be present, a flow.
The origins or other inputs do not matter as long as there is structure within the system.

If the system can produce more entropy than the ambient environment processes, it can evade the 2nd thermodynamic law.

So the question for tech singularity is can a machine produce more entropy than a human?
legendary
Activity: 1946
Merit: 1055
January 26, 2014, 10:42:39 PM
#96
Accumulating entropy in the living systems is what death is about.
Even mechanical systems can tap entropic sources for reasons Wink say rand()


Yet it is also what evolution, adaptation, and perhaps creativity are about.

If a system has been formed by and relies on entropy to survive (and does so in a non-deterministic manner) is it truly a mechanical system?

sr. member
Activity: 370
Merit: 250
January 26, 2014, 10:01:14 PM
#95
Here is a treat that can give you a diffrent perspective
http://whatislife.stanford.edu/LoCo_files/What-is-Life.pdf
Schrödinger argues that life feeds on negative entropy aka "it directs a stream of negative entropy upon itself, to compensate the entropy increase it produces by living and thus to
maintain itself on a stationary and fairly low entropy level."

He argues that life is a process of creating order from order different from the 'statistical mechanism' which produce order from disorder (things like Brownian motion and diffusion) and thus that life is essentially a purely mechanical event. As a consequence consciousness is the mind/individual/operating system that runs the individual and controls the 'motion of the atoms'.

From a Information theory point of view, negative entropy is Data stream, mechanical events are computations.
So the same mechanism that gives rise to Life, is the one that gives rise to intelligence, then society, and more scapes.

If you exchange negative entropy for Money, and mechanical events to transactions you get more fancy lifeforms

IMHO The definition of Life can be expanded to include societies, markets, corporations. So there already are super-structres aspiring at life, will , intelligence of their own, since we operate almost? mechanical.

The real singularity to fear will be when we accept Law as Force of Nature (as operating system), then we will become trully mechanical and will have surrender our will to a super conciousness.

EDIT:
Now the theory that life is a purely mechanical event cannot be completely true because there is disorder in life both in random mutations and in the infinite variations that are produced via reproduction. Life without enough variation/entropy is deterministic (like the clones produced by simple cellular division) and prone to be wiped out by changing environment or threat. However excessive disorder/mutations/chaos also leads to tumors/death/extinction of the organism.
Accumulating entropy in the living systems is what death is about.
Even mechanical systems can tap entropic sources for reasons Wink say rand()
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