Topic: Economic Devastation - page 6. (Read 504811 times)

You must understand that all of our Freedom is an illusion. We use crypto currency today and believe that because of it we are not available for decentralization and free in our choice. But this is not so. If you completely understand all the subtleties of Bitcoin structure and how it all was created, then I would not be surprised that in this question there were the comma structures that control everything and everywhere.

My idea is more that freedom is more to be though in term of capacity or skill rather than in term of if other people or system is cooperative with your own aspirations Budha said things along those line that real freedom it's necessarily a path of loneliness, it's kinda close to Jung concept of individuation on the personal level, how you need to get rid of archetypes and limit from society to become more unique and individuated. And by definition it's by getting out of the copycat behavior, or learned behavior, that you become more individuated.

In the same time i completely get what he mean, it's just the term of entropy is not necessarily the best to employ to describe what he talks about lol It's seeing the issue from the wrong side IMO lol You can't get a positive definition of the processus of individuation if you only see it as entropy as how it deviate from socially expected behavior

"Reducing the human mind to an electric signal is a perversion"

Source: http://www.coolpage.com/

stopped reading there.

The market will adjust just like it always has, just google how many market panics there has been since centralized banking alone as well as the shifting of the job market and labor force in regards to employment and implementation of new technologies. What happened during the industrial revolution when a huge % of the labor force shifted from agrarian to industrial? Or when the industrial companies of the U.S all got outsourced to 3rd world countries for cheap later? The market and labor force adjusted again and we saw a huge rise in the service industry. Or when now IT and newer/lower-education level medical/care-taker jobs are being a larger % of the labor force? Robots will never totally replace humans and vice versa. It isn't a competition and never has been. Can anyone list any SINGLE precedent in which a fundamental new technology "devastated" ANY labor force much less what the biggest fluctuation was? People, the market, supply, demand, and the education/skill needed for the labor force at large is always adjusting within any dynamic system such as a labor market.

More technological advancement has ALWAYS meant higher standard of living in the longer run. The cotton gin invention didn't outlaw slaves but made more people realize it wasn't necessary and more of a burden and "way of life" than an actual long-term feasible commodity. Every labor advancement from the assembly line to the internet has made it easier for human beings and we've adjusted what our duties are and the duties that are no long necessary because of technology in every scenario.


This was written by some crank on some obscure website "projecting" something that will happen in 2033, 15 years down the line. Who could have predicted bitcoins increase to peak 3000 even 3 months ago?

Economic devastation due to many factors but I think because of government policies that don't support people and prefer the entrepreneurs, many businessmen who bribe to the Government so they could control the economy.

Emergent properties can be predicted, sometime they are not entropic

But entropy is only mesurable against expected behavior from a constructed system to measure how the data fit the theory behind the design of the system.

This connection between emergent property & entropy works for properties emerging from a designed/constructed system, not for measuring "natural" behavior out of the context of a fabricated system. It's only entropy if it's measured as a difference with predicted outcome.

I think in most of the place we are facing the same problem money is restricted to some selected families and there monopoly is becoming stronger from time to time. the poors are becoming poorer  and the richest people are holding all the money, the worker and skilled and the educated people at not receiving their rights they are just working for these selected families and the total credit is going to them. hope bitcoin will overcome such kind of situation very soon.

Thanks that is helpful. Yes it appears we are more or less talking about the same thing. Information entropy or Shannon entropy is simply a way to emperically measure and quantify what you are calling emergence. Here are a couple of papers on this if you are interested in reading more.

Measuring Emergence, Self-organization, and Complexity Based on Shannon Entropy
http://journal-cdn.frontiersin.org/article/244727/files/pubmed-zip/versions/1/pdf



Information Entropy As a Basic Building Block of Complexity Theory
http://www.mdpi.com/1099-4300/15/9/3396/pdf



 

In that case, the input is the original message, the output is the transmited message, and the entropy is the unpredictible difference the two,on the level of entropy is how much it fit with expected values.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergence

In philosophy, systems theory, science, and art, emergence is a phenomenon whereby larger entities arise through interactions among smaller or simpler entities such that the larger entities exhibit properties the smaller/simpler entities do not exhibit.

Emergence is central in theories of integrative levels and of complex systems. For instance, the phenomenon of life as studied in biology is an emergent property of chemistry, and psychological phenomena emerge from the neurobiological phenomena of living things.

In philosophy, theories that emphasize emergent properties have been called emergentism. Almost all accounts of emergentism include a form of epistemic or ontological irreducibility to the lower levels.[1]









Emergent properties and processes[edit]
An emergent behavior or emergent property can appear when a number of simple entities (agents) operate in an environment, forming more complex behaviors as a collective. If emergence happens over disparate size scales, then the reason is usually a causal relation across different scales. In other words, there is often a form of top-down feedback in systems with emergent properties.[21] The processes from which emergent properties result may occur in either the observed or observing system, and can commonly be identified by their patterns of accumulating change, most generally called 'growth'. Emergent behaviours can occur because of intricate causal relations across different scales and feedback, known as interconnectivity. The emergent property itself may be either very predictable or unpredictable and unprecedented, and represent a new level of the system's evolution. The complex behaviour or properties are not a property of any single such entity, nor can they easily be predicted or deduced from behaviour in the lower-level entities, and might in fact be irreducible to such behavior. The shape and behaviour of a flock of birds [3] or school of fish are good examples of emergent properties.

The definition of entropy used here is not that of thermodynamic entropy but information or Shannon Entropy.

Shannon Entropy is a measure of unpredictability of the state, or equivalently, of its average information content. The exact relationship between thermodynamic entropy and informational entropy is complex. Here is an excerpt from Wikipedia.

"At an everyday practical level the links between information entropy and thermodynamic entropy are not evident. Physicists and chemists are apt to be more interested in changes in entropy as a system spontaneously evolves away from its initial conditions, in accordance with the second law of thermodynamics, rather than an unchanging probability distribution...Furthermore, in classical thermodynamics the entropy is defined in terms of macroscopic measurements and makes no reference to any probability distribution, which is central to the definition of information entropy.

In the view of Jaynes (1957), thermodynamic entropy, as explained by statistical mechanics, should be seen as an application of Shannon's information theory: the thermodynamic entropy is interpreted as being proportional to the amount of further Shannon information needed to define the detailed microscopic state of the system, that remains uncommunicated by a description solely in terms of the macroscopic variables of classical thermodynamics.

Thus if Jaynes is correct classical thermodynamic entropy is simply a special case of broader information theory much as Newton's laws of motion emerge as a special case of general relativity.

Both Anonymint and George Gilder above take the position that Jaynes is correct and this in turn supports their use of the term entropy.

To make your case you need to show either:

1) That Jaynes is incorrect.
or
2) That Anonymint and George Gilder are incorrectly using Shannon entropy when they should instead be using your concept of "emerging properties" which you need to define for us.

I think you will have a very difficult time showing either of these things as I am of the opinion that Anonymint and Mr. Gilder are correct. That said if you can prove them wrong I would be very interested to see it.


I am not really following you here. If you are arguing that absolute freedom is impossible then I agree. The best we can do is minimize the restrictions on our our collective freedom. If you are interested in my thoughts on how we can best accomplish this I have outlined them here.

Faith and Future

Originally the project was iadix.com, but the guy who was into the ICO plan parted away, so i made another plan i will come back soon with the new site and more detailed explanation, but the global idea is to replace the usual triangle of database / webserver / script by a single node who use the blockchain as database, with a system of service based on portable binary modules and RPC/CGI interface export, and a system of script to generate HTML5/js web pages based on the node/blockchain data like php would do with database, and generating html in the page for the HTML5 app with in browser crypto, transaction signing and staking, and some test with raytracing and distributed web database and HTTP api for HTML5 applications.



The above post seem to be confusing this concept of emerging properties and entropy =)

In the context of thermodynamics, the level of entropy is measured as defect from the expected output.


IMO if you are waiting on other people to build a structure you agree to be free, you are never really free at all  Society, tradition, religion, all about volontary bondage




Well the problem is that historically, the people who called themselves 'marxists' were all more or less soviet agent, carrying their own subversive agenda to out throw certain regimes, and it was all about centralization toward moscow, but it's what in technical term after people call more leninism, which when a nomemklatur of people decide everything without counter-party, but in the end capitalism is also some form of leninism but with different economic theory to justify the power of some people through investment and different priorities for society. In capitalist / fordist society, all decision power come to stake holders which can be pretty much like a nomemklatur, and it's not like corporation love freedom and decentralization that much.

I think economic devastation, due to the monopoly of wealth, in my country, economy controlled by ethnic minorities who can control the country's economy, their influence was too strong as they do all the way.

This kind of topic has been covered in whole length by plato, following on socrates, "I know one thing it's that I know nothing"  

The question is not even if there is absolute order in the universe, the notion of truth also come with a sense of perfect sentient understanding of this order by human mind, and plato demonstrated in whole length how this idea of monic truth will always escape the grasp of rationality. Can only be reached by honest philosopher as in the realm of idea akin to gnostic principles.

Godbel is a very rigorous and laborious demonstration of this.

Hello 

Ive been reading the last pages of this thread, as im done with my coding im going to troll à bit  going to come back with cool stuff soon 

Already one thing that always disturb me is this view of marxism from usa who seem to be really aksew lol like equating marxism with state power whereas marxisme originally is all about no state, no banks, no class, and horizontal organisation, self détermination, believing in social progress through work and rationalism. Marxisme never say about all controling state.

When I see this kind of view on Marxisme it give me same feeling than seeing ignorant islamophobics equating Islam with daesh lol kinda same propaganda fabric made in usa I guess lol

The other thing is this concept of entropy and conflating rules of thermodynamics with social motion is a bit fallacious, the concept of entropy make sense in the context of designing system with a clear purpose and mesurable input/output against which you can measure the entropy being unpredicted fluctuation in the system performance, but the purpose of the human mind being unknown, this concept of entropy applied to social system is a bit moot.

Like comparing libértarian motion with entropy in a system is already considering human in the perspective that it has to fit into a pattern against which it's performance can be measured against an expectation. Like David hume and his case about what "ought to be" . But there is no definition of what human mind ought to be so this concept of entropy is kinda moot in this context.

Power is an illusion anyway lol

There is a good book also about free will from neurology perpective, it shows interesting insights about what people are after when they seek freedom, is it escaping responsability, denying conséquences of actions, unfortunately both socialism & religion become more thing to cling to in order to avoiding facing one own inability to reach it's needs, and one can never be really free from external influences throught matérialisme, it's why the stoïcs were right since the beginning about the only real way to get freedom: mental strength, ascétism, self discipline etc to be as free of possible of external influence and maximizing will power to realize moral actions.

This whole concept of political power, cultural influence and sorting people out based on their culture of origin is already from this same perpective of seing freedom as entropy. Aka thinking outside of the box is so inside of the box 

Quoting as he requested.

If people believe and use the currency and liquidity is sufficient the greator fool theory need not apply. In fact fiat is the biggest game of hot potatoes ever created.. now that money is leaving into crypto we will see that unfolding. If govt doesnt give in then ppl will just convert the necessary amounts to fiat to pay tax to satisfy their requirements and also that makes their central bank inflation targetting useless as they will not be able to print money that has no utility which at that point will have hyper inflated anyway. If govt tries to ban crypto then anon tech will take center stage things like confidential transactions are a necessary component on making crypto fungible.

In other news:

Central Banks Now Own A Third Of The Entire $54 Trillion Global Bond Market

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-06-04/central-banks-now-own-third-entire-54-trillion-global-bond-market

The ones that do understand are the ones driving crypto currency prices through the roof. It's not a coincidence that the sheep that are getting slaughtered by buying high and selling low are the ones who are "illiterate" in these matters.