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Topic: Economic Totalitarianism - page 97. (Read 345758 times)

sr. member
Activity: 420
Merit: 262
July 29, 2015, 06:41:27 PM
...

An interesting topic on another piece of Economic Totalitarianism can be found here:

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.12003374

Discusses privacy of Bitcoin...  An important topic!

Theoretically the best mixing technology that exists for Bitcoin is CoinShuffle. It has some issues which will inhibit it from scaling, yet it can be decentralized, its anonymity set is known (to the extent the adversary isn't in the set), and to some extent it can probably dissuade most of the DoS that threatens naive CoinJoin (but not entirely and my original criticism against CoinJoin remains valid) and do so without requiring a master server as DarkCoin does or did (I am not following the changes to DarkCoin and its name change to Dash).
sr. member
Activity: 420
Merit: 262
July 29, 2015, 06:12:34 PM
Yes, it is interesting how so many of the young could care less about gold.

I owned 18,000 troy oz of silver in 2008. I was buying Comex bars below $9 and minting them into silver rounds during the shortage of rounds on that price drop. I loved the feel of the gold and even silver coins in my hand. Heck I was exporting silver rounds and 90% silver dimes&quarters to rpietilla in Finland for his silver investing initiatives. This isn't an issue of myself being too young to admire tangible value. Rather this is an issue of myself being too smart to think retarded thoughts.

this makes sense to me; if governments begin failing (possible precursor to full scale collapse) then gold will regain its lustre, at least for the 'old money' / un-crypto-infected generation duri g such a transition.

What you fail to factor into your analysis is that tinfoil hats don't make a market of commerce. They can all buy for a store-of-value, but who do they sell to? Ultimately they are relying on society to demand gold and silver for something. But therein lies the problem. Society will not demand them as money rather only the few sparsely geodistributed tinfoil hats who are always buyers and never sellers (except when they sell out of desperation for cash flow at the bottom and/or get expropriated by coming high taxes and Civil Asset Forfeiture on money laundered asset classes), other than for limited demand as jewelry and some limited industrial and electronic applications. But remember the global economy will be be imploding, so aggregate demand for everything will be declining. Saving up industrial metal right before a global collapse in demand, means the only buyers of the future are the tinfoil hats themselves. Not smart.

What you apparently did not enter into your analysis is that in F.U.B.A.R. mad max collapse, if you attempt to spend gold, you become a target for marauding gangs and also in any government haven a target for expropriation by the government.

let me read your palm ... you are fortunate to have made it into a totally collapsed world ...

I see you opening your door. The local "community worker" is there, and he asks for "your  donation"
to this weeks worthy cause - the junior section of the militia is upgrading to fully automatic weapons -
and he expects a brown envelope.

In 1000 words or less, write out how you will explain to him that you only have barley, wheat and
dried goods, and persuade him to either take those or to get the militia to restore your electricity
so you can transfer some cryptocurrency to them. Welcome to the new world.  

...as in Greece...Bitcoin is the best remedy available...

Your thoughts are based in fantasy.

If we humans were that organized, there wouldn't be any crisis in the first place. It is precisely that we are all dependent on the debt-based economy and there is no way for us to collectively cross the chasm of defaults socially and remain cohesive is how the bastards have managed to enslave us. That is why Bitcoin is no viable solution for Greece because Greece is a large economy that depends on external and tourism trade and any move to BTC would cause Greece to be cut off from the world by the axis powers and probably also the axis powers would fund internal internecine chaos, deprivation, and starvation.

Thus your error is there won't be an organized resistance with sufficient community protection. The first thing Hellary Slimeton will decree in a martial law collapse is pummel the self-reliant communities and militias in the USA. If necessary they can poison them from the air with toxins.

Also what you are failing to grasp is that there are very few self-reliant people remaining on this planet. When the crisis envelopes, the gangs will take over the lawless areas and turn them into mad max. Most people will move to government protected areas and follow what they are told to do, so they can be fed and sheltered.

It can also transpire in a less mad max form. The government can slowly ratchet up expropriation laws and regulations, and the self-reliants ones are divided-and-conquered as they are slowly whittled down as those amongst them that capitulate to the government (e.g. are bankrupted, lose their land to the BLM, EPA, etc). This will be capitulation by 1000 paper cuts. Imagine a herd of animals, and the hunting animal picks off the weakest from the herd first. In this way, TPTB will whittle down the resistance movement to those few diehards, then they can assassinate those last few remaining, isolated nutcases. They already own the minds of our children with social media, smartphones, and the "education" system. I think this is the more likely and preferred scenario of TPTB. They are only preparing for the mad max scenario if they are forced to it.

For example, what happened to Bundy Ranch? Everyone has forgotten by now. Eventually the Feds will whittle down that resistance and take him down.

To put this into reality for you, imagine a small Pacific Island that has to import nearly everything. How the hell is it supposed to survive using an illegal money and depending on ships coming from and across jurisdictions regulated by TPTB. The resistance movement is an analogous island. They don't even have allodial title sovereignty over the land which they stand on.

There is no realistic way to successfully resist out in the open in the tangible economy. Our only hope is the virtualized, Knowledge Age economy where we can be entirely anonymous so our organization is impenetrable, unassailable, and thus inalienable. Who me? No, I am just a simpleton who survives raising small farm animals and a garden. Or, oh yes I am the programmer of that new software X. Did you buy it too? No I never worked on any anonymous shit. I am not crazy enough to get myself in trouble doing something as insane as that.

You all do realize I was just thumping my oversized ego when I said I was working on anonymity technology.  Tongue There is nothing really there.  Embarrassed
legendary
Activity: 2940
Merit: 1865
July 29, 2015, 04:19:54 PM
...

An interesting topic on another piece of Economic Totalitarianism can be found here:

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.12003374

Discusses privacy of Bitcoin...  An important topic!

sr. member
Activity: 268
Merit: 256
July 29, 2015, 03:53:57 PM
"What you apparently did not enter into your analysis is that in F.U.B.A.R. mad max collapse, if you attempt to spend gold, you become a target for marauding gangs and also in any government haven a target for expropriation by the government."

let me read your palm ... you are fortunate to have made it into a totally collapsed world ...

I see you opening your door. The local "community worker" is there, and he asks for "your  donation"
to this weeks worthy cause - the junior section of the militia is upgrading to fully automatic weapons -
and he expects a brown envelope.

In 1000 words or less, write out how you will explain to him that you only have barley, wheat and
dried goods, and persuade him to either take those or to get the militia to restore your electricity
so you can transfer some cryptocurrency to them. Welcome to the new world. 

;-)

@generalisethis - Things are going to go from bad to worse, as in Greece. The cause is excessive
fiat debt, caused by Central Bank policies. Bitcoin is the best remedy available, but once
economies ditch monopoly currency creation, allow zombie banks to fail (they are really only
Unions for the rich) then investment can get directed to sectors likely to grow or at least
collapse less quickly. At that point, as Hayek pointed out, there is no justification for Central
Banks, and as a consequence, centralised controls become inefficient and fail.   
sr. member
Activity: 378
Merit: 250
Knowledge could but approximate existence.
July 28, 2015, 11:46:40 PM
Alas, I am OUT of the political influence game, even at the very low levels I was before.  I am weary, let the young and/or active take that up.

And, of course, I much admire TPTB_needs_war and his efforts to find freedom through financial privacy.


Quote from: Merriam-Webster link=http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/democracy
democracy
1  b :  a government in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised by them directly or indirectly through a system of representation usually involving periodically held free elections
Quote from: Merriam-Webster link=http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/plutocracy
plutocracy
1  :  government by the wealthy

You write as if plutocracy were republican democracy.
sr. member
Activity: 378
Merit: 250
Knowledge could but approximate existence.
July 28, 2015, 11:31:03 PM
Again, not asking about currency. Asking if there are any political theorist or strategist who have a plan on how to defeat control systems?


(The) United States of America < (The) Trans-Pacific Partnership < Great Empire of Earth < Administrator of Region 56-12-G
(Hyperlink modified.)
legendary
Activity: 1750
Merit: 1036
Facts are more efficient than fud
July 28, 2015, 11:28:01 PM
I was not asking about the money aspect (monero handles this) or the internet aspect (TPTB and I2p are working on this), I'm asking about the political handbook, the plan, the way people get involved, excited, empowered to fight off the shackles of control systems....

It's a question, not shill-bait.


Great Empire Coin™ (GEC) is the official currency of Great Empire of Earth, is divisible into cents and mills, and has denominations of mega-, terra-, and exacoins. Earth has a heterarchical monetary authority: anyone may “mint” coins through an official channel (e.g., Writcoin) and have these coins certified “Great Empire Coin (GEC)” by the Empire.

(The) United States of America < (The) Trans-Pacific Partnership < Great Empire of Earth < Administrator of Region 12-56-G

Quote from: Luke 12:56 (Darby)
Hypocrites, ye know how to judge of the appearance of the earth and of the heaven; how [is it then that] ye do not discern this time?
(All additions original to Darby text.)

Again, not asking about currency. Asking if there are any political theorist or strategist who have a plan on how to defeat control systems?

The fact that I believe a coin (not yours, sorry) handles this aspect of the equation isn't shilling, it's being honest and is insulting your coin as I don't think it is part of the solution--you brought up the currency, so you deserve the insult. Now, bringing up a coin when no one was even talking about currency is shilling. I've been patient with you, but your cognitive dissonance in an effort to fit your agenda is annoying--enjoy your time being ignored.

...

I hear you, americanpegasus!  Bitcoin is another important component asset to own "Financial Asset Diversification 101" shows us.  F.A.D. also teaches us not to put all of our eggs into one basket, not even the Bitcoin one.

Yes, I have done business with BTC, just check out Veldt Gold's thread here.

Bitcoin and gold complement each other wonderfully.




Bearings count as diversification too, for those so inclined.

Police love Bitcoin and that should tell you everything you need to know.


coincenter.org/2015/05/how-can-law-enforcement-leverage-the-blockchain-in-investigations/


What are the most effective ways to break control systems? Ghandi and MLK had a handbook, where is ours? Private money and private internet are BIG solutions, but without political action, they may lack the users to make them effective.
legendary
Activity: 2940
Merit: 1865
July 28, 2015, 11:23:38 PM
...

americanpegasus

Complete financial privacy solutions are very difficult to achieve.  With Bitcoin (and as someone who does not program -- a beginner!), I mix mine after I get them for "better" privacy.  That throws off the casual blockchain browsing scum looking to steal BTC or information.  I am NOT under any illusions that BTC will be anonymous vs. a .gov attack or investigation.  My main reason for experimenting with BTC is just that: experimenting.  To see how it works, and what amount might be right for me.


generalizethis

Alas, I am OUT of the political influence game, even at the very low levels I was before.  I am weary, let the young and/or active take that up.

And, of course, I much admire TPTB_needs_war and his efforts to find freedom through financial privacy.
legendary
Activity: 1750
Merit: 1036
Facts are more efficient than fud
July 28, 2015, 10:47:35 PM
What are the most effective ways to break control systems? Ghandi and MLK had a handbook, where is ours? Private money and private internet are BIG solutions, but without political action, they may lack the users to make them effective.


Im all for privacy and anonymity, but there's always a downside. Who would pay for the welfare for the people that really need it (because some do really need it). If nothing is public anymore, how in hell would that be deal with? I don't see it would work in a 100% anonymous individual society.


G.E. coins are “spent” into existence in input-less transactions. Accordingly, civil society can (at least, in part) dictate monetary policy.

Code:
sendfreetransactions=1
Code:
sendtoaddress [address] [balance + amount]

I was not asking about the money aspect (monero handles this) or the internet aspect (TPTB and I2p are working on this), I'm asking about the political handbook, the plan, the way people get involved, excited, empowered to fight off the shackles of control systems....

It's a question, not shill-bait.
sr. member
Activity: 378
Merit: 250
Knowledge could but approximate existence.
July 28, 2015, 10:38:05 PM
What are the most effective ways to break control systems? Ghandi and MLK had a handbook, where is ours? Private money and private internet are BIG solutions, but without political action, they may lack the users to make them effective.


Im all for privacy and anonymity, but there's always a downside. Who would pay for the welfare for the people that really need it (because some do really need it). If nothing is public anymore, how in hell would that be deal with? I don't see it would work in a 100% anonymous individual society.


G.E. coins are “spent” into existence in input-less transactions. Accordingly, civil society can (at least, in part) dictate monetary policy.

Code:
sendfreetransactions=1
Code:
sendtoaddress [address] [balance + amount]
legendary
Activity: 1750
Merit: 1036
Facts are more efficient than fud
July 28, 2015, 09:44:45 PM
...

I hear you, americanpegasus!  Bitcoin is another important component asset to own "Financial Asset Diversification 101" shows us.  F.A.D. also teaches us not to put all of our eggs into one basket, not even the Bitcoin one.

Yes, I have done business with BTC, just check out Veldt Gold's thread here.

Bitcoin and gold complement each other wonderfully.




Bearings count as diversification too, for those so inclined.

Police love Bitcoin and that should tell you everything you need to know.


coincenter.org/2015/05/how-can-law-enforcement-leverage-the-blockchain-in-investigations/


What are the most effective ways to break control systems? Ghandi and MLK had a handbook, where is ours? Private money and private internet are BIG solutions, but without political action, they may lack the users to make them effective.
hero member
Activity: 770
Merit: 504
July 28, 2015, 09:41:29 PM
...

I hear you, americanpegasus!  Bitcoin is another important component asset to own "Financial Asset Diversification 101" shows us.  F.A.D. also teaches us not to put all of our eggs into one basket, not even the Bitcoin one.

Yes, I have done business with BTC, just check out Veldt Gold's thread here.

Bitcoin and gold complement each other wonderfully.




Bearings count as diversification too, for those so inclined.
 
 
Right, but the problem is that bitcoin is not anonymous at all. 
 
 
 Shocked
 

 
And gold, while a historic fortress against bad currency and corrupt governments also faces problems in the digital age.  I have to postulate that in the post-Internet age that the future reserve financial asset of the world will not be a shiny rock, no matter how great of a store of value it makes. 
 
So that means that one of the new privacy based cryptocurrencies to rise in recent years makes a compelling candidate for becoming the global "private" ledger.  I have placed my bets on Monero for many reasons, though some disagree.  That doesn't stop me from being an ardent supporter though.  Wink
legendary
Activity: 2940
Merit: 1865
July 28, 2015, 09:33:18 PM
...

I hear you, americanpegasus!  Bitcoin is another important component asset to own "Financial Asset Diversification 101" shows us.  F.A.D. also teaches us not to put all of our eggs into one basket, not even the Bitcoin one.

Yes, I have done business with BTC, just check out Veldt Gold's thread here.

Bitcoin and gold complement each other wonderfully.




Bearings count as diversification too, for those so inclined.
hero member
Activity: 770
Merit: 504
July 28, 2015, 09:22:23 PM
...

To my knowledge, no one has come up with a better system than some version of fiat (standardized) money withing major jurisdictions.  Recall that the most commonly accepted definitions of money is that it fulfills all three roles:

1) Unit of Account (my car is worth $8000)

2) Medium of Exchange (give me $1.25 for that Twinkie)

3) Store of Value (will my $1000 next year still buy me approx. $1000 worth of Omaha Steaks as this year?)

The US$ (and almost all) and other currencies FAIL, as they must.  Doing all three of the above is very difficult, especially politically difficult.

We NEED currencies, to more easily buy & sell.

We need gold, perhaps other things, as a Store of Value.  If/when Bitcoin (or a later crypto) comes along re the Store of Value, and especially if ANONYNOUS, wow, then we will be in business (those of us doing stuff anyway).
 
 
That anonynous currency already exists my friend. 
 
And we are indeed in business.
legendary
Activity: 2940
Merit: 1865
July 28, 2015, 08:55:46 PM
...

username18333

One nice thing about gold is that it makes no claim on other assets (similarly it has no counterparty risk, a risk of theft, yes).  You sit there with your gold, you hurt no one.  Sit there with your silver or platinum, conceivably you are contributing to a scarcity of metals needed by industry.

tabnloz

Yes, it is interesting how so many of the young could care less about gold.

Gold, of course, is of interesting to bearing guys.  Must be a metals thing or sumpin'...
sr. member
Activity: 378
Merit: 250
Knowledge could but approximate existence.
July 28, 2015, 08:43:02 PM
this makes sense to me; if governments begin failing (possible precursor to full scale collapse) then gold will regain its lustre, at least for the 'old money' / un-crypto-infected generation duri g such a transition.

Default expands the jurisdiction of a plutocrat (e.g., one that has lent substantial quantities of capital to a national or regional government) for it may, then, collect capital more-than-less directly from the inhabitants of an entire nation or region.
legendary
Activity: 961
Merit: 1000
July 28, 2015, 08:22:14 PM
We need gold, perhaps other things, as a Store of Value.

Gold is hedge against government malfeasance but isn't a hedge against mad max failure of the government. In that scenario, gold becomes worthless and only food and ammo (and other supplies) are money. This has been backtested throughout all history by Armstrong.

If the government doesn't correct itself within about 2 - 3 years of the start of the crisis and it the crisis envelopes all possible safe havens globally (or the government blocks your escape), then gold is worthless to you.

Gold is a very, very risky store-of-value with very minimal utility.

That already minimal utility is declining drastically now that the technology has arrived to eliminate cash and control every nook and cranny of the globe with drones.

The Bible says they will throw their gold and silver into the streets. And that is precisely what is coming.

Gold is needed to preserve your value over the time of crisis, precisely what OROBTC said. It will not be of much use during the crisis. Some items mentioned by you might come in handy.

Saying that gold is "very very risky" is very very stupid if no explanation is given. Furthermore, you should really think about my thesis of portfolio allocation based on the least intercorrelation of the total loss risk of its components. In this context gold is very nice risk profile.

this makes sense to me; if governments begin failing (possible precursor to full scale collapse) then gold will regain its lustre, at least for the 'old money' / un-crypto-infected generation duri g such a transition.
sr. member
Activity: 420
Merit: 262
July 28, 2015, 07:28:31 PM
In a near-total collapse therefore something similar
to the old trimetallic currency would quickly become a form of liquidity,
and though it could be cigarettes, or whiskey, of tinned sardines,
a mixture of gold and bitcoin could work together given enough
infrastructure is retained.

Which brings me to the subject of Liquidity: MA only partially understands
its importance judging from his posts. Put simply, once Liquidity goes,
we _will_  have to fall back to gold and bitcoin.

Do not try to argue against MA on facts of historical outcomes, because he has 6000 years $1 billion of backtested data so he knows what happens. No theories needed.

What you apparently did not enter into your analysis is that in F.U.B.A.R. mad max collapse, if you attempt to spend gold, you become a target for marauding gangs and also in any government haven a target for expropriation by the government.

Anonymous crypto-coin yes, it might work (but will we be able to keep the network up and running?).
sr. member
Activity: 268
Merit: 256
July 28, 2015, 04:30:10 PM
There seems to be some doubt about the possible role of gold within
a total societal collapse. At a fundamental level, food, ie calories,
in a defined format are money. But this form of money is not very useful.
It does not assist communication of needs and wants across a network
to any great degree. In a near-total collapse therefore something similar
to the old trimetallic currency would quickly become a form of liquidity,
and though it could be cigarettes, or whiskey, of tinned sardines,
a mixture of gold and bitcoin could work together given enough
infrastructure is retained.

Which brings me to the subject of Liquidity: MA only partially understands
its importance judging from his posts. Put simply, once Liquidity goes,
we _will_  have to fall back to gold and bitcoin. Further, it will be very
difficult to re-create the liquidity once the confidence that supports it is
destroyed. (I hesitiate to judge - it is more of an assessment.)

I have been thinking about Hayek these last few days: I seem to recall
it was his advice that kept the UK out of the EuroZone. You have to wonder
why, despite all the warnings, did they go ahead with that? Perhaps
the present march to Fourth Reich is no accident.

Hayek had much to say in his "The Denationalisation of Money" that is
relevant today: not only for QE, but also for alternative currencies.
His argument [p93-106] is that Central Banks are, shall I say, barbaric
relics, whose existence is necessary because of government mandated
monopoly of issuing currency. Once alternative currencies are in place
and are allowed to compete on a level playing field, Central Banks
are an unnecessary encumbrance.

Much of the dysfunction within the money markets, the financial and the
political arenas can be traced back to Central Bank interventions - as
can be seen quite clearly in the control of Greece.   
sr. member
Activity: 420
Merit: 262
July 28, 2015, 01:39:58 PM
rpietila, I moved our discussion about theory of change activism in money systems, and username18333 on the applicability of anti-money, to the Economic Devastation thread which is more apropos.
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