Topic: Eligius pool is back under the new name Ocean - page 9. (Read 2302 times)

I feel like you're not answering my main question. Maybe I'm dumb, so let me dumb things down (for my own understanding).

On the point of Ordinals making sense to include in blocks:
I presented a transaction where an ordinal gets a 75% discount.

I was then told anyone can utilize these discounts.

But it's only ordinals that utilize the discounts to that extreme by essentially tricking the system.

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So tell me in the end, with these massive discounts, does it make more sense financially for a miner to actually include an ordinal inscription or to include non-incription transacitons that don't abuse fee discount mechanisms?

It does not, this is what I have been trying to explain all along, this is the mining section where most people are miners who pay bills and invest a lot of money, the majority could not care less if you are transacting btc to buy coffee or to upload some stupid worthless Jpeg.

So miners can't fix this issue because they do not view it as an issue, but rather as a solution to the low income, if you post the same thing in the bitcoin discussion board -- the answers will differ, but again, if this is actually an issue, it needs to addressed before the core devs, miners simply do not care.

And BTW, i do not have a crystal ball but if any pool starts to actually ban Ordinals and start to pay less than other pools that do not, said pool will go broke, i so want to be proven wrong if one of the pools is willing to launch this experiment.

Yes, anyone can utilize fee discounts, but who's actually going to ABUSE them?
Someone transaction BTC from address A to address B, or someone uploading entire JPEGs on the blockchain?
That's the thing that matters on this issue.

This is funny.

Luke was the first to advocate censorship on a large scale by adding blacklisting of casino addresses - and it also randomly got other addresses.
He put it in the debian PPA and the code even stated it was blacklisting.
So anyone running the debian/ubuntu/whatever release of bitcoin back then was censoring.
After many complaints on the debian dev site it was finally removed.


As stated above, it's core bitcoin's calculation to maximise the block reward.
If you have some baseless conspiracy that bitcoin core code is crap and can't do that - go complain to them.

Not just Ordinal, every type of transaction could use/abuse/exploit those upgrades to make their transactions smaller in size and thus save on fees, but that does not matter, what matters is sat/Vbyte, so to answer this question


I am not sure, and it does not matter, the transactions that pay the most per the space they use -- make perfect sense to be included, you could argue that Ordinals are spam and should be banned on a protocol/node level, but that would be a different topic to discuss, the majority of miners would want to make the most profit regardless.

I am sure many miners would settle with lower payouts using a pool that does not censor certain transactions (like ditching F2pool for another pool), but settling with less profit due to the censorship of Ordinals isn't going to work, you may get a few miners to side with you on that regard, but I wouldn't be so optimistic, of course, this would also apply to pools that would for example do the opposite, like ban non-Ordinals transactions that pay more just to accept Ordinals that pay less.

That's job negotiation protocol of stratum V2 .
Miners creating their own templates will create a profitability disadvantage for the pool and the miners . If each user of ocean starts creating his own template that means that they will start working on it . So , the pool is not pointing it's entire hashrate for producing a block . It's essentially solo mining re introduced .
The reason pools were created is to increase/stabilize profitability . I don't see any reason miners will start using it in massive scale .
I'd like to hear what other people think .

How sure are you that Ordinal transactions make sense to include in blocks economically?
Did you know that Ordinal transactions can get a ~75% fee discount from exploiting Taproot OP codes and SegWit?

Example: https://mempool.space/tx/77e996de08c48ed282a7b8bc88ca199712a15fa68babb10a0b3ee760674cf21b

So maybe it could be in a miners best interest to actually not mine any of them as they take too much space in blocks and get big discounts.

Ya, good luck finding miners who would leave money on the table.



It is still custodial no matter what, the custodianship only ends when you receive your payouts to your wallet, and it starts again right after the first hash you submit, so the pool will always be custodial of something, be it your hashrate or the actually sats.

Currently, the pool would find a single block every 12 days, so in terms of custodianship, it's worse than all PPS pools, and it doesn't matter how much hashrate it gets, any PPS pool could outpace it in that regard, a PPS pool could start paying out every time they find a block or even every hour for that matter. so what gives?

You would expect that these devs would have created a truly decentralized mining pool, but no, just make another ordinary pool as if more pools will solve the problem, what happens when Luke gets a warning from the authorities and is forced to censor certain transactions, is he going to fight the government over it? creating a single point of failure is not going to solve censorship.

Yes, that was also a point I recogniced when I looked after the stats.
Looks like that only the big miners need to be decentralised on that pool.

         
Ok, so their next block is going to be half full with the payments from their previous block!
But wait..


So, still custodial if you don't have 0.2% of the pool hashrate, so ~350TH/s right now.
Can't wait to see how this decentralized stuff will work with Ocean reaching 100exa and having a few tens of thousands of small miners. 
Luke turning into a big blocker will be looking at a duck screaming for a lifebuoy.

As I understand it, there are quite a few bitcoin users that don't particularly like Ordinals and the effects they're having on bitcoin's blockchain, especially fees. So Luke isn't alone in that.
Surely plenty of miners would probably be on board in creating block templates that would not include Ordinal transactions.

But the thing with mining is that it has nothing to do with individual (person) support. It's all in the hashpower.
OCEAN has promised create infrastructure which would allow their miners to create their own block templates. And so far AFAIK there wasn't a pool that actually gave miners the opportunity to say no to mining ordinals. Once that update is released on the pool I guess there wouldn't be any reason for there to be any blowback. It would be purely the choice of miners to exclude ordinals from the transactions they confirm with their own hash.

Until they are proven censorship would probably not a good idea as the blowback would be enormous.

With that being said, look at the post I made last night about LukeJR and some of the things Block / Square / Dorsey have done:
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/square-is-considering-making-a-hardware-wallet-for-bitcoin-5341906

If they can show they are a reliable pool and are behaving well they will get people to mine there, but and this is just my opinion, there are a lot of trust issues to overcome 1st.

-Dave

OCEAN's block included 1571 inscriptions (Ordinal NFT images and BRC-20 tokens alike):
https://ordinals.com/block/000000000000000000009ef7ac2c30976bc7e05c2cdab10e5a5de7efd96492a7

So... These rumors about censorship weren't true at all!?
One has to wonder why these rumors weren't addressed in a more direct manner but hey... Good do know it was just FUD. The pool is only active for a few days.
Sooner than later it should allow for public access to its block template API and people will be able to bring it under all the scrutiny they want with even more transparency.

Looks like ocean got their first block https://twitter.com/ocean_mining/status/1730524828757901470 .
It includes some ordinals but still down close to 0.30 btc in fees compared to what they could get .

Luke has censored / blacklisted before when he tried to block some addresses related to BTC casinos.
Luke has 51% attacked coins he did not like: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=56675.260
And lets not forget he was hacked earlier this year: https://gizmodo.com/bitcoin-price-hack-217-btc-og-developer-luke-dashjr-1849944799

So not a pool I would mine at, but whatever, people will always mine where they want.

-Dave

Just as I along with many others suspected.
Mr. Luke has repeatedly called Ordinals an attack on bitcoin and had developed his bitcoin client to run without broadcasting them as a node.
I think it's good that such choice exists though, because so far all other pools were mining ordinals without consulting their miners at all.

Interestingly though, OCEAN has mentioned that miners will be able to propose their own block templates, being one of the first to do so.
So miners on OCEAN could easily propose their own block templates including ordinals no problem if they wanted.

According to that tweet https://twitter.com/checksum0/status/1730004768410493183 they are probably censoring high fee transactions ( probably ordinals and such ) .
Oh , the irony , the guys that are crying out loud about censorship are those censoring others . What a joke ( didn't expect something else from Luke and Jack tbh ) .
Good luck to the miners that decide to join them and burn money .
I would like to see if other pools will reject their block in case ocean pool hits the jackpot . Interesting times ahead .

Any rational pool would mine any thing marked as valid by the code that most other nodes operate, it does not matter what there inside, as long as it is valid and pays more -- should be in.

Any pool that does not do that will lose many miners, either for paying less than average or for censorship.

Sort of, they bought the tech from intel when intel figured they could not make any money with it:

https://www.coindesk.com/tech/2023/04/28/jack-dorseys-block-snaps-up-bitcoin-mining-chip-as-intel-winds-down-production/



Yeah, that is high. Back of the napkin math is about 60 days at 100 TH/s so someone with only a single miner would have to wait a while to get paid.

That gets into opportunity costs, are you better off loosing whatever % with a FPPS pool then waiting on your BTC
Obviously, everyone will be different, but it's something to think about.

-Dave

By the way, you all should definitely give a watch to the presentation of OCEAN:
https://youtu.be/_PH5sKrkzZY?t=14527

The panel and discussion about the pool start around the 4 hours and 2 minutes mark in the video.
Jack Dorsey, Luke Dashjr and OCEAN's Bitcoin Mechanic spoke and detailed what makes the pool unique.

Well the first 4 hours also had a few interesting parts but it's not directly related to the pool. I can try summarizing since I watched the whole thing.
Basically barefoot mining has put on an old hydro plant to put mining hardware under 100% clean energy. So a partner/supporter of the initiative is putting his own hashrate towards the pool, we can assume that's the bulk of the current hashrate that was switched on recently.

Jack Dorsey who also spoke, he seems to be a major backer of this project financially.

Then there was a lot of talk about how to get "pleb miners" on board in order to decentralize mining. Basically the best idea centered around integrating chips as heating elements to utilize them efficiently and desirable on a home environment. To make that feasible though more durable and more open chip technology must be made available. Jack Dorsey also revealed that his company Square has an ASIC research unit!?

Predictably there was quite a bit of talk about how much Ordinals suck. Although at no point in this presentation was it explicitly stated that the pool will be filtering Ordinal transactions out of mined blocks.

You should really watch the video and read the contents of the website for stuff about the pool in order to better understand technicalities around the pool and why it's superior and helps in decentralization.

Although I must mention one downside. Looking at the website's FAQ section, the minimum payout is 0.01048576. For so much talk about pleb miners, a payout threshold that high is kinda disappointing. Perhaps it would be technically feasible to decrease to a lower minimum dynamically. Hopefully that'll get looked into in the pool's future.