Eventually the FUNGIBILITY issue of bitcoin will make headlines ... - page 11.

brg444

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Activity: 644

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Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks

Quote from: smoothie on September 25, 2015, 09:39:42 PM

Quote from: UfoRia on September 25, 2015, 06:50:47 PM

All US money is numbered, so unless you have a large block of $100 sequential bills it is hard to trace. Fiat is traceable to a point, so is Bitcoin. I really have no idea why fungibility is so concerning. Bitcoin has mixers, convenience stores, grocery stores are fiat mixers, along with that nice restaurant you enjoy.

I don see this being an issue, but maybe my tinfoil hat isn't on tight enough?

Ufo

So if I stole bitcoin and sent it to a mixer and someone else got the coin and tried to spend it and let's say that merchant flagged that address because it was linked to a hack/scam/theft...how did mixing the coins fix anything other than allowing the thief to get away with the crime?

How would the merchant have "flagged" that address? Surely this means he administers a list probably maintained by a third party to validate his Bitcoin transactions?

If so then allow me to ask you what kind of merchant you deal with? I understand a lot of people feel warm and fuzzy about the novelty of Bitcoin transactions but maybe it is time to consider how stupid the idea is to pay a fiat accepting merchant with Bitcoin. (The BitPay model).

Unless you deal with someone or a business on a peer-to-peer basis it really is not worth it as this is when you expose yourself to such shenanigans.

smoothie

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Quote from: brg444 on September 25, 2015, 10:11:25 PM

Quote from: smoothie on September 25, 2015, 09:59:55 PM

Quote from: brg444 on September 25, 2015, 09:49:33 PM

Quote from: smoothie on September 25, 2015, 09:38:01 PM

Quote from: brg444 on September 25, 2015, 05:38:15 PM

Quote from: onemorexmr on September 25, 2015, 05:31:05 PM

Quote from: brg444 on September 25, 2015, 05:28:27 PM

Quote from: onemorexmr on September 25, 2015, 04:30:57 PM

Quote from: brg444 on September 25, 2015, 03:59:57 PM

Bitcoin is perfectly fungible. Anyone who claims otherwise is confusing economic concepts.

we already had this discussion.
maybe bitcoin is technically fungible (because any coin can always be send an mixed) but practically you have problems when using coins which where stolen (eg bitstamp hack) or why do you think new minted coins are sold with a premium?

Indeed, and as you explain we have established that Bitcoin is "technically fungible" which is really all that matters. Fungibility is a property inherent to a system. It is not dependent on human preferences.

well we need to agree to disagree then.
i want to use money without thinking about thefts or checking its history.
it doesnt help me if is "technically fungible" when i cant use it that way.

You will, it's a matter of setting up the technology to do it. Monero is cool cause it comes with that feature baked in but it isn't impossible with Bitcoin.

I would also suggest that situations where you wouldn't be able to spend your coin are rare occurrences.

lol so it isn't perfectly fungible then right?

Of course nothing is impossible, but I would think that the unsettlement of the "block size" debate (pretty much one line of code) can't be decided upon. Yet you think the developers of bitcoin can add an entire set of code to allow UNLINKABILITY and UNTRACEABILITY?

Even bitcoin mixers leave someone with coins tracing back to its origin (assuming some stolen were mixed).

I beg to differ on that one.

It is perfectly fungible, what I am saying is you might be stupid enough to do business with people that believe or enforce this sham of "blacklists" and "taint" but that's not Bitcoin's problem.

Quote from: smoothie on September 25, 2015, 09:38:01 PM

Yet you think the developers of bitcoin can add an entire set of code to allow UNLINKABILITY and UNTRACEABILITY?

Yes

https://github.com/ElementsProject/elementsproject.github.io/blob/master/confidential_values.md

You are right it isn't bitcoin's problem. It is the user's problem.

But isn't that a cop out?

If there was a system that removed this possibility of blacklisting then I think we would be on to something. Roll Eyes

Bitcoin is here to serve people. If there is a problem with it, I think it should be fixed.

Block size is not something super critical that it needs to be done now...but this fungibility problem I believe is something that should be taken more seriously by the core developers.

Look you are fighting a strawman here I absolutely agree that privacy and traceability matters need to be addressed but fundamentally disagree that this issue has anything to do with Bitcoin intrinsic fungibility.

The problem is that users are not yet using it as intended. Most people are still dealing with third parties and traditional financial institutions when dabbling in their "Bitcoin finance".

No individual is actively aware of "tainted" coins and it makes absolutely no sense for them to be if they follow proper business etiquette. Stolen coins is 99% of the time the result of suckers who were irresponsible with their coins.

Yeah right now it isn't a huge problem. But I suspect we will hear of stories in news/press headlines about bitcoin's fungibility not being 100% perfect in the coming months and years.

brg444

hero member

Activity: 644

Merit: 504

Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks

Quote from: smoothie on September 25, 2015, 09:59:55 PM

Quote from: brg444 on September 25, 2015, 09:49:33 PM

Quote from: smoothie on September 25, 2015, 09:38:01 PM

Quote from: brg444 on September 25, 2015, 05:38:15 PM

Quote from: onemorexmr on September 25, 2015, 05:31:05 PM

Quote from: brg444 on September 25, 2015, 05:28:27 PM

Quote from: onemorexmr on September 25, 2015, 04:30:57 PM

Quote from: brg444 on September 25, 2015, 03:59:57 PM

Bitcoin is perfectly fungible. Anyone who claims otherwise is confusing economic concepts.

we already had this discussion.
maybe bitcoin is technically fungible (because any coin can always be send an mixed) but practically you have problems when using coins which where stolen (eg bitstamp hack) or why do you think new minted coins are sold with a premium?

Indeed, and as you explain we have established that Bitcoin is "technically fungible" which is really all that matters. Fungibility is a property inherent to a system. It is not dependent on human preferences.

well we need to agree to disagree then.
i want to use money without thinking about thefts or checking its history.
it doesnt help me if is "technically fungible" when i cant use it that way.

You will, it's a matter of setting up the technology to do it. Monero is cool cause it comes with that feature baked in but it isn't impossible with Bitcoin.

I would also suggest that situations where you wouldn't be able to spend your coin are rare occurrences.

lol so it isn't perfectly fungible then right?

Of course nothing is impossible, but I would think that the unsettlement of the "block size" debate (pretty much one line of code) can't be decided upon. Yet you think the developers of bitcoin can add an entire set of code to allow UNLINKABILITY and UNTRACEABILITY?

Even bitcoin mixers leave someone with coins tracing back to its origin (assuming some stolen were mixed).

I beg to differ on that one.

It is perfectly fungible, what I am saying is you might be stupid enough to do business with people that believe or enforce this sham of "blacklists" and "taint" but that's not Bitcoin's problem.

Quote from: smoothie on September 25, 2015, 09:38:01 PM

Yet you think the developers of bitcoin can add an entire set of code to allow UNLINKABILITY and UNTRACEABILITY?

Yes

https://github.com/ElementsProject/elementsproject.github.io/blob/master/confidential_values.md

You are right it isn't bitcoin's problem. It is the user's problem.

But isn't that a cop out?

If there was a system that removed this possibility of blacklisting then I think we would be on to something. Roll Eyes

Bitcoin is here to serve people. If there is a problem with it, I think it should be fixed.

Block size is not something super critical that it needs to be done now...but this fungibility problem I believe is something that should be taken more seriously by the core developers.

Look you are fighting a strawman here I absolutely agree that privacy and traceability matters need to be addressed but fundamentally disagree that this issue has anything to do with Bitcoin intrinsic fungibility.

The problem is that users are not yet using it as intended. Most people are still dealing with third parties and traditional financial institutions when dabbling in their "Bitcoin finance".

No individual is actively aware of "tainted" coins and it makes absolutely no sense for them to be if they follow proper business etiquette. Stolen coins is 99% of the time the result of suckers who were irresponsible with their coins.

smoothie

legendary

Activity: 2492

Merit: 1473

LEALANA Bitcoin Grim Reaper

Quote from: brg444 on September 25, 2015, 09:52:53 PM

Quote from: smoothie on September 25, 2015, 09:50:36 PM

Quote from: brg444 on September 25, 2015, 09:04:00 PM

Quote from: iCEBREAKER on September 25, 2015, 07:14:41 PM

Quote from: onemorexmr on September 25, 2015, 04:30:57 PM

Quote from: brg444 on September 25, 2015, 03:59:57 PM

Bitcoin is perfectly fungible. Anyone who claims otherwise is confusing economic concepts.

we already had this discussion.
maybe bitcoin is technically fungible (because any coin can always be send an mixed) but practically you have problems when using coins which where stolen (eg bitstamp hack) or why do you think new minted coins are sold with a premium?

Here's an economic concept: the market places a 10% premium on freshly minted zero-taint BTC over 'gently used' coins. Good luck with your stolen Evolution coins!

Bitcoin doesn't meet the highest 'can't be evil' / 'can't be non-fungible' technical standard because the code may be modified with black/white/grey/red lists of forbidden/allowed coins/taints.

So no need to even get into the more significant (but more general issue) of socioeconomic interchangeability.

Sorry but that doesn't make any sense. The lists you speak of arbitrary human concepts. A USGian parasites kangaroo court AML/KYC bullshit.

I am confident I could trivially sell stolen Evolution coins on most p2p markets in major international cities today. Only fiat businesses such type of lowly scheme. They are a sham.

Don't let anyone ever tell you your Bitcoin is not as good as another. Individuals currently pay a premium on market because of a lack of private alternatives against traceability. This is a technological problem that will certainly be solved seeing the progress being made. When we do get there anyone still entertaining this notion that Bitcoin is not fungible will surely be looked at in a funny way and any money spent on "clean" coins will be money wasted.

http://trilema.com/2014/guidance-there-is-no-such-thing-as-bitcoin-taint/

If they don't accept your bitcoin because it was linked to a scam, that's the way it is.

There is such thing a as bitcoin taint because what if I choose not to accept bitcoins coming from the bitcoinica theft? One example of showing how fungibility does not 100% exist is enough to break your "perfect fungibility" claim.

Listen, it doesn't matter what an idiot might accept or not because in a not so long future people will be desperate to purchase Bitcoin and let me tell you he will not get picky.

Yeah but that is for a shorter time period. Im talking decades on into the future.

Sure the financial world economy will crumble to a certain extent. But there will be a tomorrow in the financial realm.

Why not just fix the issue? I can answer that...the social contract would then be broken.

Any bitcoin business that went along with say adding code that obfuscated transactions to a point that there is unlinkability and untraceability would have problems with regulators assuming they were AML/KYC compliant etc or whatever the regulation is.

brg444

hero member

Activity: 644

Merit: 504

Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks

Quote from: bitbaby on September 25, 2015, 09:55:35 PM

Quote from: smoothie on September 25, 2015, 09:39:42 PM

Quote from: UfoRia on September 25, 2015, 06:50:47 PM

All US money is numbered, so unless you have a large block of $100 sequential bills it is hard to trace. Fiat is traceable to a point, so is Bitcoin. I really have no idea why fungibility is so concerning. Bitcoin has mixers, convenience stores, grocery stores are fiat mixers, along with that nice restaurant you enjoy.

I don see this being an issue, but maybe my tinfoil hat isn't on tight enough?

Ufo

So if I stole bitcoin and sent it to a mixer and someone else got the coin and tried to spend it and let's say that merchant flagged that address because it was linked to a hack/scam/theft...how did mixing the coins fix anything other than allowing the thief to get away with the crime?

You're right, this flagging addresses and blacklisting transactions from addresses won't help, it will ultimately start getting abused, think about it. You sell coins to someone, a cash trade so no identities were involved and after that you go to a forum and start yelling my coins were hacked/stolen and ask Miners and others to flag that address. Now the person who bought those coins is fu**ed, he paid for them and didn't do anything wrong and he's the one who is now called a thief and can't spend his coins? I really hope no more sites start doing this and even bitpay should stop doing this, if they're really doing this i.e.

we're a long way from this ever happening and even if it did that is precisely why you need decentralization in mining.

either way in a Bitcoin economy this person could trivially exchange this Bitcoin through a peer to peer transaction for goods and services.

smoothie

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Quote from: brg444 on September 25, 2015, 09:50:43 PM

Quote from: smoothie on September 25, 2015, 09:45:21 PM

Quote from: brg444 on September 25, 2015, 08:29:58 PM

Quote from: onemorexmr on September 25, 2015, 08:02:17 PM

https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3mea6b/bitpay_is_blacklisting_certain_bitcoins_rejecting

how about you don't use fiat for your Bitcoin business?

do you understand how likely it is or easy it would be for coins to cross path with other "tainted" ones.

this is absolutely a non-issue

it's so non issue that bitpay is blacklisting certain bitcoins...yeah lol Roll Eyes

Why in hell would you use bitpay Huh

I don't use them.

smoothie

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Activity: 2492

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LEALANA Bitcoin Grim Reaper

Quote from: brg444 on September 25, 2015, 09:49:33 PM

Quote from: smoothie on September 25, 2015, 09:38:01 PM

Quote from: brg444 on September 25, 2015, 05:38:15 PM

Quote from: onemorexmr on September 25, 2015, 05:31:05 PM

Quote from: brg444 on September 25, 2015, 05:28:27 PM

Quote from: onemorexmr on September 25, 2015, 04:30:57 PM

Quote from: brg444 on September 25, 2015, 03:59:57 PM

Bitcoin is perfectly fungible. Anyone who claims otherwise is confusing economic concepts.

we already had this discussion.
maybe bitcoin is technically fungible (because any coin can always be send an mixed) but practically you have problems when using coins which where stolen (eg bitstamp hack) or why do you think new minted coins are sold with a premium?

Indeed, and as you explain we have established that Bitcoin is "technically fungible" which is really all that matters. Fungibility is a property inherent to a system. It is not dependent on human preferences.

well we need to agree to disagree then.
i want to use money without thinking about thefts or checking its history.
it doesnt help me if is "technically fungible" when i cant use it that way.

You will, it's a matter of setting up the technology to do it. Monero is cool cause it comes with that feature baked in but it isn't impossible with Bitcoin.

I would also suggest that situations where you wouldn't be able to spend your coin are rare occurrences.

lol so it isn't perfectly fungible then right?

Of course nothing is impossible, but I would think that the unsettlement of the "block size" debate (pretty much one line of code) can't be decided upon. Yet you think the developers of bitcoin can add an entire set of code to allow UNLINKABILITY and UNTRACEABILITY?

Even bitcoin mixers leave someone with coins tracing back to its origin (assuming some stolen were mixed).

I beg to differ on that one.

It is perfectly fungible, what I am saying is you might be stupid enough to do business with people that believe or enforce this sham of "blacklists" and "taint" but that's not Bitcoin's problem.

Quote from: smoothie on September 25, 2015, 09:38:01 PM

Yet you think the developers of bitcoin can add an entire set of code to allow UNLINKABILITY and UNTRACEABILITY?

Yes

https://github.com/ElementsProject/elementsproject.github.io/blob/master/confidential_values.md

You are right it isn't bitcoin's problem. It is the user's problem.

But isn't that a cop out?

If there was a system that removed this possibility of blacklisting then I think we would be on to something. Roll Eyes

Bitcoin is here to serve people. If there is a problem with it, I think it should be fixed.

Block size is not something super critical that it needs to be done now...but this fungibility problem I believe is something that should be taken more seriously by the core developers.

BTW good luck with that addition to the code.

Look at how many businesses who have regulators on their backs would claw back at such a proposal that would allow UNLINKABILITY and UNTRACEABILITY.

The core devs can't even come to an agreement on ONE LINE OF CODE and yet you expect them to add many lines of code that change the social contract of bitcoin and have the network/ECONOMY accept it?

chennan

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Activity: 1316

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Quote from: bitbaby on September 25, 2015, 09:55:35 PM

Quote from: smoothie on September 25, 2015, 09:39:42 PM

Quote from: UfoRia on September 25, 2015, 06:50:47 PM

All US money is numbered, so unless you have a large block of $100 sequential bills it is hard to trace. Fiat is traceable to a point, so is Bitcoin. I really have no idea why fungibility is so concerning. Bitcoin has mixers, convenience stores, grocery stores are fiat mixers, along with that nice restaurant you enjoy.

I don see this being an issue, but maybe my tinfoil hat isn't on tight enough?

Ufo

So if I stole bitcoin and sent it to a mixer and someone else got the coin and tried to spend it and let's say that merchant flagged that address because it was linked to a hack/scam/theft...how did mixing the coins fix anything other than allowing the thief to get away with the crime?

You're right, this flagging addresses and blacklisting transactions from addresses won't help, it will ultimately start getting abused, think about it. You sell coins to someone, a cash trade so no identities were involved and after that you go to a forum and start yelling my coins were hacked/stolen and ask Miners and others to flag that address. Now the person who bought those coins is fu**ed, he paid for them and didn't do anything wrong and he's the one who is now called a thief and can't spend his coins? I really hope no more sites start doing this and even bitpay should stop doing this, if they're really doing this i.e.

Yep, it's really going to hurt the currency in general if bitpay is still around for much longer, and/or other companies will start doing this too. This will eventually lead to everyone currently trading/selling/loaning/mixing bitcoins to be stuck with some fraction of a tainted coin where everyone can't be able to do business at all, unless you are a big time miner who mints fresh coins himself and keeps them to himself.

smoothie

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Quote from: brg444 on September 25, 2015, 09:42:59 PM

Quote from: smoothie on September 25, 2015, 09:31:53 PM

Quote from: brg444 on September 25, 2015, 05:28:27 PM

Quote from: onemorexmr on September 25, 2015, 04:30:57 PM

Quote from: brg444 on September 25, 2015, 03:59:57 PM

Bitcoin is perfectly fungible. Anyone who claims otherwise is confusing economic concepts.

we already had this discussion.
maybe bitcoin is technically fungible (because any coin can always be send an mixed) but practically you have problems when using coins which where stolen (eg bitstamp hack) or why do you think new minted coins are sold with a premium?

Indeed, and as you explain we have established that Bitcoin is "technically fungible" which is really all that matters. Fungibility is a property inherent to a system. It is not dependent on human preferences.

Yeah sure THAT definition of "Fungibility" of Bitcoin is not dependent upon human preferences. But who cares?

Bitcoin does not use itself. Humans do. That's what matters and that's what gives bitcoin VALUE,.....HUMANS.

If people don't accept your BTC because they have come from a path that leads back to an address of coins that were illegally taken from someone else, then fungibility in terms of its use with HUMANS is broken and not perfect. This is assuming that the receiving party of your tainted bitcoins is not accepting them.

You are basically arguing a definition that is irrelevant to the discussion at hand of why I started this thread.

The "fungibility issue" you speak of is also a human construction. One that is irrelevant to a Bitcoin economy and that is only an example of how hard wired your brain is on fiat.

Even if we remove the fiat portion out of my example and replace it with something else it still holds true.

Let's use BEANIE BABIES.

Let's take my example and put BEANIE BABIES (or your favorite object or digital good or service) instead of fiat.

My point still stands.

bitbaby

hero member

Activity: 812

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Quote from: smoothie on September 25, 2015, 09:39:42 PM

Quote from: UfoRia on September 25, 2015, 06:50:47 PM

All US money is numbered, so unless you have a large block of $100 sequential bills it is hard to trace. Fiat is traceable to a point, so is Bitcoin. I really have no idea why fungibility is so concerning. Bitcoin has mixers, convenience stores, grocery stores are fiat mixers, along with that nice restaurant you enjoy.

I don see this being an issue, but maybe my tinfoil hat isn't on tight enough?

Ufo

So if I stole bitcoin and sent it to a mixer and someone else got the coin and tried to spend it and let's say that merchant flagged that address because it was linked to a hack/scam/theft...how did mixing the coins fix anything other than allowing the thief to get away with the crime?

You're right, this flagging addresses and blacklisting transactions from addresses won't help, it will ultimately start getting abused, think about it. You sell coins to someone, a cash trade so no identities were involved and after that you go to a forum and start yelling my coins were hacked/stolen and ask Miners and others to flag that address. Now the person who bought those coins is fu**ed, he paid for them and didn't do anything wrong and he's the one who is now called a thief and can't spend his coins? I really hope no more sites start doing this and even bitpay should stop doing this, if they're really doing this i.e.

smoothie

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Activity: 2492

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brg444

hero member

Activity: 644

Merit: 504

Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks

Quote from: smoothie on September 25, 2015, 09:50:36 PM

Quote from: brg444 on September 25, 2015, 09:04:00 PM

Quote from: iCEBREAKER on September 25, 2015, 07:14:41 PM

Quote from: onemorexmr on September 25, 2015, 04:30:57 PM

Quote from: brg444 on September 25, 2015, 03:59:57 PM

Bitcoin is perfectly fungible. Anyone who claims otherwise is confusing economic concepts.

we already had this discussion.
maybe bitcoin is technically fungible (because any coin can always be send an mixed) but practically you have problems when using coins which where stolen (eg bitstamp hack) or why do you think new minted coins are sold with a premium?

Here's an economic concept: the market places a 10% premium on freshly minted zero-taint BTC over 'gently used' coins. Good luck with your stolen Evolution coins!

Bitcoin doesn't meet the highest 'can't be evil' / 'can't be non-fungible' technical standard because the code may be modified with black/white/grey/red lists of forbidden/allowed coins/taints.

So no need to even get into the more significant (but more general issue) of socioeconomic interchangeability.

Sorry but that doesn't make any sense. The lists you speak of arbitrary human concepts. A USGian parasites kangaroo court AML/KYC bullshit.

I am confident I could trivially sell stolen Evolution coins on most p2p markets in major international cities today. Only fiat businesses such type of lowly scheme. They are a sham.

Don't let anyone ever tell you your Bitcoin is not as good as another. Individuals currently pay a premium on market because of a lack of private alternatives against traceability. This is a technological problem that will certainly be solved seeing the progress being made. When we do get there anyone still entertaining this notion that Bitcoin is not fungible will surely be looked at in a funny way and any money spent on "clean" coins will be money wasted.

http://trilema.com/2014/guidance-there-is-no-such-thing-as-bitcoin-taint/

If they don't accept your bitcoin because it was linked to a scam, that's the way it is.

There is such thing a as bitcoin taint because what if I choose not to accept bitcoins coming from the bitcoinica theft? One example of showing how fungibility does not 100% exist is enough to break your "perfect fungibility" claim.

Listen, it doesn't matter what an idiot might accept or not because in a not so long future people will be desperate to purchase Bitcoin and let me tell you he will not get picky.

smoothie

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Activity: 2492

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LEALANA Bitcoin Grim Reaper

Quote from: |Bitcoin| on September 25, 2015, 09:05:46 PM

Haha. You got to br joking. That is a long way before we will make headlines for whatever rrason.

Bitpay already posted on reddit they are black listing certain bitcoin addresses.

I never said WHEN it would happen...I said EVENTUALLY it would be in the headlines of the press of normal bitcoin articles and news releases.

brg444

hero member

Activity: 644

Merit: 504

Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks

Quote from: smoothie on September 25, 2015, 09:45:21 PM

Quote from: brg444 on September 25, 2015, 08:29:58 PM

Quote from: onemorexmr on September 25, 2015, 08:02:17 PM

https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3mea6b/bitpay_is_blacklisting_certain_bitcoins_rejecting

how about you don't use fiat for your Bitcoin business?

do you understand how likely it is or easy it would be for coins to cross path with other "tainted" ones.

this is absolutely a non-issue

it's so non issue that bitpay is blacklisting certain bitcoins...yeah lol Roll Eyes

Why in hell would you use bitpay Huh

smoothie

legendary

Activity: 2492

Merit: 1473

LEALANA Bitcoin Grim Reaper

Quote from: brg444 on September 25, 2015, 09:04:00 PM

Quote from: iCEBREAKER on September 25, 2015, 07:14:41 PM

Quote from: onemorexmr on September 25, 2015, 04:30:57 PM

Quote from: brg444 on September 25, 2015, 03:59:57 PM

Bitcoin is perfectly fungible. Anyone who claims otherwise is confusing economic concepts.

we already had this discussion.
maybe bitcoin is technically fungible (because any coin can always be send an mixed) but practically you have problems when using coins which where stolen (eg bitstamp hack) or why do you think new minted coins are sold with a premium?

Here's an economic concept: the market places a 10% premium on freshly minted zero-taint BTC over 'gently used' coins. Good luck with your stolen Evolution coins!

Bitcoin doesn't meet the highest 'can't be evil' / 'can't be non-fungible' technical standard because the code may be modified with black/white/grey/red lists of forbidden/allowed coins/taints.

So no need to even get into the more significant (but more general issue) of socioeconomic interchangeability.

Sorry but that doesn't make any sense. The lists you speak of arbitrary human concepts. A USGian parasites kangaroo court AML/KYC bullshit.

I am confident I could trivially sell stolen Evolution coins on most p2p markets in major international cities today. Only fiat businesses such type of lowly scheme. They are a sham.

Don't let anyone ever tell you your Bitcoin is not as good as another. Individuals currently pay a premium on market because of a lack of private alternatives against traceability. This is a technological problem that will certainly be solved seeing the progress being made. When we do get there anyone still entertaining this notion that Bitcoin is not fungible will surely be looked at in a funny way and any money spent on "clean" coins will be money wasted.

http://trilema.com/2014/guidance-there-is-no-such-thing-as-bitcoin-taint/

How do you do that? You can't control what people choose to do.

If they don't accept your bitcoin because it was linked to a scam, that's the way it is.

There is such thing a as bitcoin taint because what if I choose not to accept bitcoins coming from the bitcoinica theft? One example of showing how fungibility does not 100% exist is enough to break your "perfect fungibility" claim.

brg444

hero member

Activity: 644

Merit: 504

Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks

Quote from: smoothie on September 25, 2015, 09:38:01 PM

Quote from: brg444 on September 25, 2015, 05:38:15 PM

Quote from: onemorexmr on September 25, 2015, 05:31:05 PM

Quote from: brg444 on September 25, 2015, 05:28:27 PM

Quote from: onemorexmr on September 25, 2015, 04:30:57 PM

Quote from: brg444 on September 25, 2015, 03:59:57 PM

Bitcoin is perfectly fungible. Anyone who claims otherwise is confusing economic concepts.

we already had this discussion.
maybe bitcoin is technically fungible (because any coin can always be send an mixed) but practically you have problems when using coins which where stolen (eg bitstamp hack) or why do you think new minted coins are sold with a premium?

Indeed, and as you explain we have established that Bitcoin is "technically fungible" which is really all that matters. Fungibility is a property inherent to a system. It is not dependent on human preferences.

well we need to agree to disagree then.
i want to use money without thinking about thefts or checking its history.
it doesnt help me if is "technically fungible" when i cant use it that way.

You will, it's a matter of setting up the technology to do it. Monero is cool cause it comes with that feature baked in but it isn't impossible with Bitcoin.

I would also suggest that situations where you wouldn't be able to spend your coin are rare occurrences.

lol so it isn't perfectly fungible then right?

Of course nothing is impossible, but I would think that the unsettlement of the "block size" debate (pretty much one line of code) can't be decided upon. Yet you think the developers of bitcoin can add an entire set of code to allow UNLINKABILITY and UNTRACEABILITY?

Even bitcoin mixers leave someone with coins tracing back to its origin (assuming some stolen were mixed).

I beg to differ on that one.

It is perfectly fungible, what I am saying is you might be stupid enough to do business with people that believe or enforce this sham of "blacklists" and "taint" but that's not Bitcoin's problem.

Quote from: smoothie on September 25, 2015, 09:38:01 PM

Yet you think the developers of bitcoin can add an entire set of code to allow UNLINKABILITY and UNTRACEABILITY?

Yes

https://github.com/ElementsProject/elementsproject.github.io/blob/master/confidential_values.md

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Quote from: pattu1 on September 25, 2015, 08:46:15 PM

Quote from: iCEBREAKER on September 25, 2015, 07:14:41 PM

Here's an economic concept: the market places a 10% premium on freshly minted zero-taint BTC over 'gently used' coins. Good luck with your stolen Evolution coins!

Bitcoin doesn't meet the highest 'can't be evil' / 'can't be non-fungible' technical standard because the code may be modified with black/white/grey/red lists of forbidden/allowed coins/taints.

So no need to even get into the more significant (but more general issue) of socioeconomic interchangeability.

Collectors pay a premium for weird things. That doesn't mean that bitcoin is not fungible.
With respect to fiat, collectors have paid millions of dollars for nickels. So that doesn't change anything about fiat's fungibility.

true but just having one example of where a business/site/exchange/merchant not accepting certain bitcoins coming from certain addresses linked to a theft breaks bitcoin's fungibility in my view.

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Quote from: brg444 on September 25, 2015, 08:29:58 PM

Quote from: onemorexmr on September 25, 2015, 08:02:17 PM

https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3mea6b/bitpay_is_blacklisting_certain_bitcoins_rejecting

how about you don't use fiat for your Bitcoin business?

do you understand how likely it is or easy it would be for coins to cross path with other "tainted" ones.

this is absolutely a non-issue

it's so non issue that bitpay is blacklisting certain bitcoins...yeah lol Roll Eyes

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Quote from: smoothie on September 25, 2015, 09:31:53 PM

Quote from: brg444 on September 25, 2015, 05:28:27 PM

Quote from: onemorexmr on September 25, 2015, 04:30:57 PM

Quote from: brg444 on September 25, 2015, 03:59:57 PM

Bitcoin is perfectly fungible. Anyone who claims otherwise is confusing economic concepts.

we already had this discussion.
maybe bitcoin is technically fungible (because any coin can always be send an mixed) but practically you have problems when using coins which where stolen (eg bitstamp hack) or why do you think new minted coins are sold with a premium?

Indeed, and as you explain we have established that Bitcoin is "technically fungible" which is really all that matters. Fungibility is a property inherent to a system. It is not dependent on human preferences.

Yeah sure THAT definition of "Fungibility" of Bitcoin is not dependent upon human preferences. But who cares?

Bitcoin does not use itself. Humans do. That's what matters and that's what gives bitcoin VALUE,.....HUMANS.

If people don't accept your BTC because they have come from a path that leads back to an address of coins that were illegally taken from someone else, then fungibility in terms of its use with HUMANS is broken and not perfect. This is assuming that the receiving party of your tainted bitcoins is not accepting them.

You are basically arguing a definition that is irrelevant to the discussion at hand of why I started this thread.

The "fungibility issue" you speak of is also a human construction. One that is irrelevant to a Bitcoin economy and that is only an example of how hard wired your brain is on fiat.

Topic: Eventually the FUNGIBILITY issue of bitcoin will make headlines ... - page 11. (Read 10581 times)