Topic: Eventually the FUNGIBILITY issue of bitcoin will make headlines ... - page 12. (Read 10590 times)
September 25, 2015, 09:42:27 PM
thanks for the link. I will put it in the OP.
September 25, 2015, 09:41:15 PM
September 25, 2015, 09:39:42 PM
All US money is numbered, so unless you have a large block of $100 sequential bills it is hard to trace. Fiat is traceable to a point, so is Bitcoin. I really have no idea why fungibility is so concerning. Bitcoin has mixers, convenience stores, grocery stores are fiat mixers, along with that nice restaurant you enjoy.
I don see this being an issue, but maybe my tinfoil hat isn't on tight enough?
Ufo
I don see this being an issue, but maybe my tinfoil hat isn't on tight enough?
Ufo
So if I stole bitcoin and sent it to a mixer and someone else got the coin and tried to spend it and let's say that merchant flagged that address because it was linked to a hack/scam/theft...how did mixing the coins fix anything other than allowing the thief to get away with the crime?
September 25, 2015, 09:38:01 PM
Bitcoin is perfectly fungible. Anyone who claims otherwise is confusing economic concepts.
we already had this discussion.
maybe bitcoin is technically fungible (because any coin can always be send an mixed) but practically you have problems when using coins which where stolen (eg bitstamp hack) or why do you think new minted coins are sold with a premium?
Indeed, and as you explain we have established that Bitcoin is "technically fungible" which is really all that matters. Fungibility is a property inherent to a system. It is not dependent on human preferences.
well we need to agree to disagree then.
i want to use money without thinking about thefts or checking its history.
it doesnt help me if is "technically fungible" when i cant use it that way.
You will, it's a matter of setting up the technology to do it. Monero is cool cause it comes with that feature baked in but it isn't impossible with Bitcoin.
I would also suggest that situations where you wouldn't be able to spend your coin are rare occurrences.
lol so it isn't perfectly fungible then right?
Of course nothing is impossible, but I would think that the unsettlement of the "block size" debate (pretty much one line of code) can't be decided upon. Yet you think the developers of bitcoin can add an entire set of code to allow UNLINKABILITY and UNTRACEABILITY?
Even bitcoin mixers leave someone with coins tracing back to its origin (assuming some stolen were mixed).
I beg to differ on that one.
September 25, 2015, 09:34:30 PM
BS the FBI stole hundreds of thousands of poeple coins, and had no problem selling it on the open market.
Yes but when you are the authority in a country you can pretty much do what you want.
We are talking about everyone that does not have that authority. Regular citizens.
September 25, 2015, 09:31:53 PM
Bitcoin is perfectly fungible. Anyone who claims otherwise is confusing economic concepts.
we already had this discussion.
maybe bitcoin is technically fungible (because any coin can always be send an mixed) but practically you have problems when using coins which where stolen (eg bitstamp hack) or why do you think new minted coins are sold with a premium?
Indeed, and as you explain we have established that Bitcoin is "technically fungible" which is really all that matters. Fungibility is a property inherent to a system. It is not dependent on human preferences.
Yeah sure THAT definition of "Fungibility" of Bitcoin is not dependent upon human preferences. But who cares?
Bitcoin does not use itself. Humans do. That's what matters and that's what gives bitcoin VALUE,.....HUMANS.
If people don't accept your BTC because they have come from a path that leads back to an address of coins that were illegally taken from someone else, then fungibility in terms of its use with HUMANS is broken and not perfect. This is assuming that the receiving party of your tainted bitcoins is not accepting them.
You are basically arguing a definition that is irrelevant to the discussion at hand of why I started this thread.
September 25, 2015, 09:24:27 PM
September 25, 2015, 09:05:46 PM
Haha. You got to br joking. That is a long way before we will make headlines for whatever rrason.
September 25, 2015, 09:04:00 PM
Bitcoin is perfectly fungible. Anyone who claims otherwise is confusing economic concepts.
we already had this discussion.
maybe bitcoin is technically fungible (because any coin can always be send an mixed) but practically you have problems when using coins which where stolen (eg bitstamp hack) or why do you think new minted coins are sold with a premium?
Here's an economic concept: the market places a 10% premium on freshly minted zero-taint BTC over 'gently used' coins. Good luck with your stolen Evolution coins!
Bitcoin doesn't meet the highest 'can't be evil' / 'can't be non-fungible' technical standard because the code may be modified with black/white/grey/red lists of forbidden/allowed coins/taints.
So no need to even get into the more significant (but more general issue) of socioeconomic interchangeability.
Sorry but that doesn't make any sense. The lists you speak of arbitrary human concepts. A USGian parasites kangaroo court AML/KYC bullshit.
I am confident I could trivially sell stolen Evolution coins on most p2p markets in major international cities today. Only fiat businesses such type of lowly scheme. They are a sham.
Don't let anyone ever tell you your Bitcoin is not as good as another. Individuals currently pay a premium on market because of a lack of private alternatives against traceability. This is a technological problem that will certainly be solved seeing the progress being made. When we do get there anyone still entertaining this notion that Bitcoin is not fungible will surely be looked at in a funny way and any money spent on "clean" coins will be money wasted.
http://trilema.com/2014/guidance-there-is-no-such-thing-as-bitcoin-taint/
September 25, 2015, 08:46:15 PM
Here's an economic concept: the market places a 10% premium on freshly minted zero-taint BTC over 'gently used' coins. Good luck with your stolen Evolution coins!
Bitcoin doesn't meet the highest 'can't be evil' / 'can't be non-fungible' technical standard because the code may be modified with black/white/grey/red lists of forbidden/allowed coins/taints.
So no need to even get into the more significant (but more general issue) of socioeconomic interchangeability.
Bitcoin doesn't meet the highest 'can't be evil' / 'can't be non-fungible' technical standard because the code may be modified with black/white/grey/red lists of forbidden/allowed coins/taints.
So no need to even get into the more significant (but more general issue) of socioeconomic interchangeability.
Collectors pay a premium for weird things. That doesn't mean that bitcoin is not fungible.
With respect to fiat, collectors have paid millions of dollars for nickels. So that doesn't change anything about fiat's fungibility.
September 25, 2015, 08:44:39 PM
The fungibility issue is becoming more and more prominent than the blocksize issue for me. Merge avoidance would be a good thing, too. The truth is, Bitcoin is simply unattractive right now and will continue to be while exchanges constantly capitulate to external forces hell bent on destroying Bitcoin's fungibility.
There's a very real risk of an alt-coin fundamentally surpassing Bitcoin. Maybe not in market size (yet) but certainly in energy. I could name examples, but I don't necessarily want to promote them.
For what it is worth, I don't intend to run the XT client any time soon, but if XT provided actual fungibility fixes, I think a lot of us could probably overlook the hard fork concerns on blockchain size and become its greatest evangelists.
There's a very real risk of an alt-coin fundamentally surpassing Bitcoin. Maybe not in market size (yet) but certainly in energy. I could name examples, but I don't necessarily want to promote them.
For what it is worth, I don't intend to run the XT client any time soon, but if XT provided actual fungibility fixes, I think a lot of us could probably overlook the hard fork concerns on blockchain size and become its greatest evangelists.
September 25, 2015, 08:29:58 PM
how about you don't use fiat for your Bitcoin business?
do you understand how likely it is or easy it would be for coins to cross path with other "tainted" ones.
this is absolutely a non-issue
September 25, 2015, 08:07:03 PM
.
September 25, 2015, 08:00:51 PM
All US money is numbered, so unless you have a large block of $100 sequential bills it is hard to trace. Fiat is traceable to a point, so is Bitcoin. I really have no idea why fungibility is so concerning. Bitcoin has mixers, convenience stores, grocery stores are fiat mixers, along with that nice restaurant you enjoy.
I don see this being an issue, but maybe my tinfoil hat isn't on tight enough?
Ufo
I don see this being an issue, but maybe my tinfoil hat isn't on tight enough?
Ufo
Sure bitcoins have mixers, but along with having to have to send your bitcoins to that site that mixes it for you, you still are risking your bitcoins because some of those mixers turn out to be scams and just take everything you send them. Also, what good is it to send in your bitcoins that are say, freshly minted and have no bad history with it, and mixing it in with a bunch of coins with a bad history? Overall, I say that anyone who is having to send their bitcoins into a mixer are literally just mixing bad coins with bad coins... so yes, the person who is sending in their coins to be mixed get away with the scam they just committed, but two wrong turns don't make a right; in other words, mixing bad with bad doesn't make it good.
September 25, 2015, 07:14:41 PM
Bitcoin is perfectly fungible. Anyone who claims otherwise is confusing economic concepts.
we already had this discussion.
maybe bitcoin is technically fungible (because any coin can always be send an mixed) but practically you have problems when using coins which where stolen (eg bitstamp hack) or why do you think new minted coins are sold with a premium?
Here's an economic concept: the market places a 10% premium on freshly minted zero-taint BTC over 'gently used' coins. Good luck with your stolen Evolution coins!
Bitcoin doesn't meet the highest 'can't be evil' / 'can't be non-fungible' technical standard because the code may be modified with black/white/grey/red lists of forbidden/allowed coins/taints.
So no need to even get into the more significant (but more general issue) of socioeconomic interchangeability.
September 25, 2015, 06:50:47 PM
All US money is numbered, so unless you have a large block of $100 sequential bills it is hard to trace. Fiat is traceable to a point, so is Bitcoin. I really have no idea why fungibility is so concerning. Bitcoin has mixers, convenience stores, grocery stores are fiat mixers, along with that nice restaurant you enjoy.
I don see this being an issue, but maybe my tinfoil hat isn't on tight enough?
Ufo
I don see this being an issue, but maybe my tinfoil hat isn't on tight enough?
Ufo
September 25, 2015, 05:38:15 PM
Bitcoin is perfectly fungible. Anyone who claims otherwise is confusing economic concepts.
we already had this discussion.
maybe bitcoin is technically fungible (because any coin can always be send an mixed) but practically you have problems when using coins which where stolen (eg bitstamp hack) or why do you think new minted coins are sold with a premium?
Indeed, and as you explain we have established that Bitcoin is "technically fungible" which is really all that matters. Fungibility is a property inherent to a system. It is not dependent on human preferences.
well we need to agree to disagree then.
i want to use money without thinking about thefts or checking its history.
it doesnt help me if is "technically fungible" when i cant use it that way.
You will, it's a matter of setting up the technology to do it. Monero is cool cause it comes with that feature baked in but it isn't impossible with Bitcoin.
I would also suggest that situations where you wouldn't be able to spend your coin are rare occurrences.
September 25, 2015, 05:36:19 PM
BS the FBI stole hundreds of thousands of poeple coins, and had no problem selling it on the open market.
+1
September 25, 2015, 05:33:29 PM
BS the FBI stole hundreds of thousands of poeple coins, and had no problem selling it on the open market.
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