Eventually the FUNGIBILITY issue of bitcoin will make headlines ... - page 13.

onemorexmr

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Quote from: brg444 on September 25, 2015, 06:28:27 PM

Quote from: onemorexmr on September 25, 2015, 05:30:57 PM

Quote from: brg444 on September 25, 2015, 04:59:57 PM

Bitcoin is perfectly fungible. Anyone who claims otherwise is confusing economic concepts.

we already had this discussion.
maybe bitcoin is technically fungible (because any coin can always be send an mixed) but practically you have problems when using coins which where stolen (eg bitstamp hack) or why do you think new minted coins are sold with a premium?

Indeed, and as you explain we have established that Bitcoin is "technically fungible" which is really all that matters. Fungibility is a property inherent to a system. It is not dependent on human preferences.

well we need to agree to disagree then.
i want to use money without thinking about thefts or checking its history.
it doesnt help me if is "technically fungible" when i cant use it that way.

brg444

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Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks

Quote from: fluffypony on September 25, 2015, 05:32:28 PM

Quote from: brg444 on September 25, 2015, 04:59:57 PM

Bitcoin is perfectly fungible. Anyone who claims otherwise is confusing economic concepts.

Let's imagine I have some coins that I stole during Evolution's demise. Are you willing to swap all of your coins for mine?

Or put differently: if I borrow your car for a month, and at the end of that month I give you back the same make, same model, same year, same colour car, is that ok?

Bitcoin isn't fungible for the same reason that you won't appreciate me giving you some random car in exchange for yours, regardless of the properties of that car.

Absolutely.

The car analogy is asinine. Cars are not fungible.

brg444

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Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks

Quote from: onemorexmr on September 25, 2015, 05:30:57 PM

Quote from: brg444 on September 25, 2015, 04:59:57 PM

Bitcoin is perfectly fungible. Anyone who claims otherwise is confusing economic concepts.

we already had this discussion.
maybe bitcoin is technically fungible (because any coin can always be send an mixed) but practically you have problems when using coins which where stolen (eg bitstamp hack) or why do you think new minted coins are sold with a premium?

Indeed, and as you explain we have established that Bitcoin is "technically fungible" which is really all that matters. Fungibility is a property inherent to a system. It is not dependent on human preferences.

brg444

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Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks

smoothie

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onemorexmr

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Quote from: smoothie on September 25, 2015, 05:56:49 PM

Quote from: onemorexmr on September 25, 2015, 05:45:04 PM

Quote from: mallard on September 25, 2015, 05:42:50 PM

I can draw and deface a bank note, does that make fiat not "perfectly fungible"?

imagine this:
- you payed in a store with that dollar
- the store get robbed and the owner got killed
- one employee remebered this dollar was still there
- news reports this with an image with that dollar

is this dollar still fungible or will the thief has problems paying with it?

Assuming the merchant that may accept it is paying attention to the bills coming in...yes they would have problems paying with it.

Most people aren't paying attention to the serial numbers on their bills.

It's not accessible for many to lookup which serial numbers of bills were tied to a specific crime/theft.

luckily in this example mallard made it easy by drawing an image on the dollar and made it unique and easy to remember Wink

smoothie

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Quote from: onemorexmr on September 25, 2015, 05:45:04 PM

Quote from: mallard on September 25, 2015, 05:42:50 PM

Quote from: smoothie on September 25, 2015, 05:22:42 PM

Quote from: brg444 on September 25, 2015, 04:59:57 PM

Bitcoin is perfectly fungible. Anyone who claims otherwise is confusing economic concepts.

wow really? lol

here is the definition of the economic concept of FUNGIBILITY:

Quote

definition: Fungibility is the property of a good or a commodity whose individual units are capable of mutual substitution. That is, it is the property of essences or goods which are "capable of being substituted in place of one another."

You sure you want to claim that it is "perfectly fungible"?

If someone decides not to accept some bitcoins vs other bitcoins ....then it is no longer "perfectly fungible".

I can draw and deface a bank note, does that make fiat not "perfectly fungible"?

imagine this:
- you payed in a store with that dollar
- the store get robbed and the owner got killed
- one employee remebered this dollar was still there
- news reports this with an image with that dollar

is this dollar still fungible or will the thief has problems paying with it?

Assuming the merchant that may accept it is paying attention to the bills coming in...yes they would have problems paying with it.

Most people aren't paying attention to the serial numbers on their bills.

It's not accessible for many to lookup which serial numbers of bills were tied to a specific crime/theft.

smoothie

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Quote from: mallard on September 25, 2015, 05:42:50 PM

Quote from: smoothie on September 25, 2015, 05:22:42 PM

Quote from: brg444 on September 25, 2015, 04:59:57 PM

Bitcoin is perfectly fungible. Anyone who claims otherwise is confusing economic concepts.

wow really? lol

here is the definition of the economic concept of FUNGIBILITY:

Quote

definition: Fungibility is the property of a good or a commodity whose individual units are capable of mutual substitution. That is, it is the property of essences or goods which are "capable of being substituted in place of one another."

You sure you want to claim that it is "perfectly fungible"?

If someone decides not to accept some bitcoins vs other bitcoins ....then it is no longer "perfectly fungible".

I can draw and deface a bank note, does that make fiat not "perfectly fungible"?

Are we talking about fiat? No.

We are talking about bitcoin.

But to address your issue let's discuss it...

No one said fiat was perfectly fungible. I never said it for sure. But I do see that if you stole fiat from someone let's name them James. James loses money to a thief named Jamal.

Jamal now can do what he wants with the cash and no one really knows where the cash went (assuming there are no list of serial numbers that James claims he had on the bills).

But problem with that is not many of the public will go through the effort to look up the serial numbers of bills they are receiving as payment from Jamal. Too cumbersome.

Therefore fiat is more fungible than bitcoin in terms of functionality.

If you do the same thing with bitcoin with James having Jamal steal his bitcoin...well now you have the block chain that is public and accessible to anyone on the internet and you can track where those coins go.

See the problem?

brg444

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Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks

onemorexmr

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Quote from: mallard on September 25, 2015, 05:42:50 PM

Quote from: smoothie on September 25, 2015, 05:22:42 PM

Quote from: brg444 on September 25, 2015, 04:59:57 PM

Bitcoin is perfectly fungible. Anyone who claims otherwise is confusing economic concepts.

wow really? lol

here is the definition of the economic concept of FUNGIBILITY:

Quote

definition: Fungibility is the property of a good or a commodity whose individual units are capable of mutual substitution. That is, it is the property of essences or goods which are "capable of being substituted in place of one another."

You sure you want to claim that it is "perfectly fungible"?

If someone decides not to accept some bitcoins vs other bitcoins ....then it is no longer "perfectly fungible".

I can draw and deface a bank note, does that make fiat not "perfectly fungible"?

imagine this:
- you payed in a store with that dollar
- the store get robbed and the owner got killed
- one employee remebered this dollar was still there
- news reports this with an image with that dollar

is this dollar still fungible or will the thief has problems paying with it?

mallard

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Activity: 196

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Quote from: smoothie on September 25, 2015, 05:22:42 PM

Quote from: brg444 on September 25, 2015, 04:59:57 PM

Bitcoin is perfectly fungible. Anyone who claims otherwise is confusing economic concepts.

wow really? lol

here is the definition of the economic concept of FUNGIBILITY:

Quote

definition: Fungibility is the property of a good or a commodity whose individual units are capable of mutual substitution. That is, it is the property of essences or goods which are "capable of being substituted in place of one another."

You sure you want to claim that it is "perfectly fungible"?

If someone decides not to accept some bitcoins vs other bitcoins ....then it is no longer "perfectly fungible".

I can draw and deface a bank note, does that make fiat not "perfectly fungible"?

smoothie

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LEALANA Bitcoin Grim Reaper

Quote from: Sir Alpha_goy on September 25, 2015, 05:34:25 PM

Quote from: smoothie on September 25, 2015, 04:32:18 PM

Eventually the FUNGIBILITY issue of bitcoin will make headlines and will be in article titles in the press. <--------------- Smoothie Prediction

Just a fun prediction I'm making before it happens on a much more apparent scale.

Right now the focus is "BLOCK SIZE"....that will change...

And don't forget what will happen afterwards...

what happens?

Sir Alpha_goy

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.

smoothie

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Quote from: onemorexmr on September 25, 2015, 05:30:57 PM

Quote from: brg444 on September 25, 2015, 04:59:57 PM

Bitcoin is perfectly fungible. Anyone who claims otherwise is confusing economic concepts.

we already had this discussion.
maybe bitcoin is technically fungible (because any coin can always be send an mixed) but practically you have problems when using coins which where stolen (eg bitstamp hack) or why do you think new minted coins are sold with a premium?

My point exactly. You can mix them, but in the end someone is going to end up with coins from a theft (assuming they were stolen in some form or fashion).

fluffypony

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Quote from: brg444 on September 25, 2015, 04:59:57 PM

Bitcoin is perfectly fungible. Anyone who claims otherwise is confusing economic concepts.

Let's imagine I have some coins that I stole during Evolution's demise. Are you willing to swap all of your coins for mine?

Or put differently: if I borrow your car for a month, and at the end of that month I give you back the same make, same model, same year, same colour car, is that ok?

Bitcoin isn't fungible for the same reason that you won't appreciate me giving you some random car in exchange for yours, regardless of the properties of that car.

onemorexmr

sr. member

Activity: 252

Merit: 251

Quote from: brg444 on September 25, 2015, 04:59:57 PM

Bitcoin is perfectly fungible. Anyone who claims otherwise is confusing economic concepts.

we already had this discussion.
maybe bitcoin is technically fungible (because any coin can always be send an mixed) but practically you have problems when using coins which where stolen (eg bitstamp hack) or why do you think new minted coins are sold with a premium?

smoothie

legendary

Activity: 2492

Merit: 1473

LEALANA Bitcoin Grim Reaper

Quote from: brg444 on September 25, 2015, 04:59:57 PM

Bitcoin is perfectly fungible. Anyone who claims otherwise is confusing economic concepts.

wow really? lol

here is the definition of the economic concept of FUNGIBILITY:

Quote

definition: Fungibility is the property of a good or a commodity whose individual units are capable of mutual substitution. That is, it is the property of essences or goods which are "capable of being substituted in place of one another."

You sure you want to claim that it is "perfectly fungible"?

If someone decides not to accept some bitcoins vs other bitcoins ....then it is no longer "perfectly fungible".

jonald_fyookball

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Core dev leaves me neg feedback #abuse #political

Quote from: smoothie on September 25, 2015, 04:32:18 PM

Eventually the FUNGIBILITY issue of bitcoin will make headlines and will be in article titles in the press. <--------------- Smoothie Prediction

Just a fund prediction I'm making before it happens on a much more apparent scale.

Right now the focus is "BLOCK SIZE"....that will change...

I don't think its a road that regulators can make much headway into because of mixers.
Taint is going to happen.

brg444

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Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks

Bitcoin is perfectly fungible. Anyone who claims otherwise is confusing economic concepts.

smoothie

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Quote from: gentlemand on September 25, 2015, 04:37:02 PM

The potential lack thereof?

There haven't been many or any legal precedents set so far. When they do it'll either be reassuring or there'll be some good old panic. The fact that each jurisdiction can't decide what it actually is isn't helping.

yes the lack of fungibility.

when one steals coins or scams bitcoins from users/customers and you can trace it, that does imply the possibility that merchants/exchanges/payment processors etc will not accept tainted bitcoins. Some will and some won't...

Some miners may not process transactions from certain addresses if they get enough pressure from their regulators (locally) to not do it, implying it is "illegal" to do so.

Topic: Eventually the FUNGIBILITY issue of bitcoin will make headlines ... - page 13. (Read 10576 times)