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Topic: Everything you wanted to know about Grayscale BTC Trust but were afraid to ask! - page 44. (Read 16372 times)

legendary
Activity: 2114
Merit: 15144
Fully fledged Merit Cycler - Golden Feather 22-23
Does anyone know if you can use GBTC as collateral for collateral stock lending from a place like td ameritrade? They offer loans pretty cheaply at libor + a percentage, as low as libor +1.5% if you take a larger loan (3mm+).
Going to contact them next week and see. Might be a decent move to put a little money in there if I can take loans against it (in a cheap way), a couple years down the line.

It doesn't look a great idea to me: do you really want to buy bitcoin with a 20% premium only to have a cheaper loan?
I am not sure about your fiscal and regulatory framework, but I guess the saving you can have on the loan side of the deal is minuscole compared to the premium you are going to pay on the "grayscale secondary buying" leg.

A completely different consideration would have been made if you were an accredited investors with some restricted GBTC shares. There could be a good deal.



So Grayscale buys bitcoin in behalf of its clients, most of them must be institutional investors or companies, otherwise they could've bought bitcoin themselves, why having some intermediary.


As I said in the OP, there are a large numbers of subject that cannot hold BTC on the first place. For them the only way to get exposure to BTC is getting trough Grayscale or similar products.
newbie
Activity: 4
Merit: 3
Grayscale buys SOME of the bitcoin in their fund. About 70%-80% are people contributing btc and getting shares issued. There are benefits to having shares instead of actual btc if you want to take advantage of certain programs offered by legacy finance (or if you dont want to worry about custody). Im sure theres also people arbitraging the premium.

So Grayscale buys bitcoin in behalf of its clients, most of them must be institutional investors or companies, otherwise they could've bought bitcoin themselves, why having some intermediary
newbie
Activity: 2
Merit: 0
So Grayscale buys bitcoin in behalf of its clients, most of them must be institutional investors or companies, otherwise they could've bought bitcoin themselves, why having some intermediary.


OMG, what are they going to do with so many bitcoins? Just hodl or maybe some other purposes.

Nothing.
Grayscale do not owns those bitcoins. Those are clients’ money and Grayscale just manages them.
This is a big difference compared to other companies that actually owns bitcoins, like MicroStrategy.
Learn more here:

Bitcoin Treasuries

In addition to that, this (incredible) result has been made greatly easier by the growth of BTCUSD price, not the inflows in their funds.
Of course Grayscale is riding the momentum as per marketing purposes!



newbie
Activity: 4
Merit: 3
Does anyone know if you can use GBTC as collateral for collateral stock lending from a place like td ameritrade? They offer loans pretty cheaply at libor + a percentage, as low as libor +1.5% if you take a larger loan (3mm+).
Going to contact them next week and see. Might be a decent move to put a little money in there if I can take loans against it (in a cheap way), a couple years down the line.
legendary
Activity: 2114
Merit: 15144
Fully fledged Merit Cycler - Golden Feather 22-23
Grayscale just has his biggest inflow day ever when measured in USD at almost 194,000,000 USD and the third best day when measured in BTC at 10,577.



As per the attached spreadsheet this quarter is spectacular for Grayscale, as it is crushing every possible record:

  • Grayscale has been buying a daily average of 1,500 BTC
  • We are a little bit more after half of the quarter and the daily inflow average is almost 1,500 BTC. Bear in mind the daily mined bitcoins are 900.




  • The projection for the EOQ is of a total of 137,000 BTC: more than the double of the last quarter. 

Only just remember that Grayscale inflows can be not only outright buys in the open market, but also can be some "in-kind" buys by bitcoin whales, that can invest in the fund simply giving in their coins, profiting not only from a fiscal stand-point, but also  from the premium cashing-in strategy.

legendary
Activity: 2114
Merit: 15144
Fully fledged Merit Cycler - Golden Feather 22-23
The Grayscale march has been impressive:
Just a couple of graphs.
The following graph reports the  BTC inflows (red Bars) that made the Grayscale AUM, measured in BTC grow:



You see that, despite the price appreciation, the inflow has been constantly growing recently.

In the second graph I plotted the rate of increase of the AUM, measured both in USD and in BTC.
This means: "Which percentage did the AUM grow in the last 100 days?"



So, for the BTC line I compute the sum of all the BTC inflows during the last 100 days (131,800 BTC on Nov 19), and I divide it by the total number of BTC held (515,000 BTC); this gives me the growth rate during the last 100 days of approximately 25%.

One interesting fact is that, apart obvious short term differences, the growth rate are  almost similar in BTC and USD: this means that the growth has been constant and organic in the period. Apparently also higher BTC price call for bigger inflows.
Another reasonin is that maybe Bitcoin is a Giffen good?




legendary
Activity: 2114
Merit: 15144
Fully fledged Merit Cycler - Golden Feather 22-23
OMG, what are they going to do with so many bitcoins? Just hodl or maybe some other purposes.

Nothing.
Grayscale do not owns those bitcoins. Those are clients’ money and Grayscale just manages them.
This is a big difference compared to other companies that actually owns bitcoins, like MicroStrategy.
Learn more here:

Bitcoin Treasuries

In addition to that, this (incredible) result has been made greatly easier by the growth of BTCUSD price, not the inflows in their funds.
Of course Grayscale is riding the momentum as per marketing purposes!


newbie
Activity: 2
Merit: 0
OMG, what are they going to do with so many bitcoins? Just hodl or maybe some other purposes.
legendary
Activity: 2114
Merit: 15144
Fully fledged Merit Cycler - Golden Feather 22-23
It has been reported many times on this thread, and is something very easily trackable using the spreadsheet.
So yes, I think all of us saw that.
This is actually the point of the thread: build knowledge first-hand, without delegating this kind of low effort analysis to news outlet.
legendary
Activity: 2114
Merit: 15144
Fully fledged Merit Cycler - Golden Feather 22-23
<...>
They must have rolled out a very detailed strategy with many scenarios to change their buying habits according to some KPIs we do not know.
For us it is indeed impressive to watch this massive growth in their holdings.
On the long run these players are kind of cornering the market (until the average Joe will realize that there are not enough bitcoins for everyone). All good!

I am afraid they do not have any plan or strategy to buy the bitcoins. They only react to money inflows of in-kind buying.
This is their business model: they don’t risk their own money, that would require a proper buying plan, but they only look for their risk free daily management fees of 27 bitcoins. Whatever the price their client get long bitcoins.
legendary
Activity: 1316
Merit: 1481
Really impressive, they buy regardless of the price and if they continue like this I wonder how long it will take them to double the amount they already have and approach the amount of 1 million BTC in their possession?

According to the data presented by fillippone, at the beginning of August they were at 400 000 BTC, now they have almost 82 000 more and there is no doubt that by the end of the year they will reach 500 000 BTC, so if they buy around 100 000 on average every 4 months, by the end of next year the total amount could exceed as much as 800 000 BTC.
They must have rolled out a very detailed strategy with many scenarios to change their buying habits according to some KPIs we do not know.
For us it is indeed impressive to watch this massive growth in their holdings.
On the long run these players are kind of cornering the market (until the average Joe will realize that there are not enough bitcoins for everyone). All good!
legendary
Activity: 3234
Merit: 5637
Blackjack.fun-Free Raffle-Join&Win $50🎲
Really impressive, they buy regardless of the price and if they continue like this I wonder how long it will take them to double the amount they already have and approach the amount of 1 million BTC in their possession?

According to the data presented by fillippone, at the beginning of August they were at 400 000 BTC, now they have almost 82 000 more and there is no doubt that by the end of the year they will reach 500 000 BTC, so if they buy around 100 000 on average every 4 months, by the end of next year the total amount could exceed as much as 800 000 BTC.
legendary
Activity: 1736
Merit: 4270
https://decrypt.co/48277/grayscale-buys-240m-in-bitcoin-in-largest-capital-raise-week-ever

Grayscale Buys $240m in Bitcoin In Largest Capital Raise Week Ever
"Grayscale, which runs the Grayscale Bitcoin Trust (GBTC), bought this week another 15,114 Bitcoin ($241 million). GBTC holds 481,711 Bitcoin, representing 62% of all Bitcoins in the ownership of publicly-traded companies.
Grayscale Bitcoin Trust (GBTC), which was created in 2013, is the company’s biggest trust. The total value of assets managed by Grayscale Bitcoin Trust (GBTC) now exceeds $8.2 billion.
GBTC holds 481,711 Bitcoin, which corresponds to 62% of the 814,359 Bitcoins in the ownership of publicly-traded companies."
legendary
Activity: 2114
Merit: 15144
Fully fledged Merit Cycler - Golden Feather 22-23


Many thanks for your quick response.  Grayscale and ETC look very attractive right now.  Unfortunately, they are not offered by my broker.  They only offer XBT.

Those two products are offered by Coinshares. As you noted, the only difference is the currency used for the NAV computations. If you want to protect yourself against of the EURO you should invest in the dollar one. But ultimately it is not a big issue, as a crumbling Euro would send the BTCEUR cross on the moon, without much effect on the BTCUSD. You might invest in the USD one just to avoid redenomination risk (in case of an EUR breakup).
jr. member
Activity: 30
Merit: 2


<...
My question is, which is the best tracker to invest in if you consider the euro will lose value in the near term and money will pour into the dollar?
<...>
I think the best is the following one:

ETC Group to launch bitcoin ETP on Deutsche Boerse

It also should be available in UK, if I am not mistaken.
These are real BTC, not CFD...

Many thanks for your quick response.  Grayscale and ETC look very attractive right now.  Unfortunately, they are not offered by my broker.  They only offer XBT.
legendary
Activity: 2310
Merit: 1422
Holy Gray(l)scale is at it again: trying to own all the bitcoin production! I wonder how much of their activity influences the price and in what %.
Thomas Lee saw it before others in 2018: I remember his data got dismissed but they were just a little ahead of times.
https://twitter.com/fundstrat/status/988817606604881920
legendary
Activity: 2114
Merit: 15144
Fully fledged Merit Cycler - Golden Feather 22-23
Again on the massive Growth of GBTC.

We all saw some permutation of the following:

Quote

WOW.
@Grayscale
 added $500 million in new assets under management in a single day.

They're now over $9 billion in total AUM.

Someone stop @Sonnenshein and @BarrySilbert before they buy up everything and there is nothing left for the rest of us!


https://twitter.com/APompliano/status/1324838120337084420?s=20

I think the fairer metric to look at it is consider directly BTC, forgetting the FIAT value.

The growth has been nonetheless dramatic.

Just look at this graph directly from the spreadsheet:



Today, tomorrow maybe if it is going to be a slow day, GBTC is going to cross 500K BTC in AUM (you read it here first!).

They crossed 400,000 BTC at the beginning of  August: they grew 25% in the last three months, with an increasing average price!
Looks like an incredible Bull run (in the GBTC AUM)!

Luckily this didn't translate in an increased premium, pointing that who wanted to buy Shares, wasn't willing to buy on the secondary market.



Probably some whale trying to monetize their stash with in-kind buying?
legendary
Activity: 3234
Merit: 5637
Blackjack.fun-Free Raffle-Join&Win $50🎲
JP Morgan is going full bonkers about Bitcoin.
They are shilling Bitcoin to their clients now

Obviously they have learned a lesson from the past and now they don’t want to miss the earning opportunity, and Bitcoin is something unique in the market that is currently a hot commodity.

What actually makes me happy is that they may have figured it out with one good delay (though it’s never too late), so all small investors who invest smartly over the years finally have a chance to turn out a lot smarter than big investment banks and funds.
legendary
Activity: 2114
Merit: 15144
Fully fledged Merit Cycler - Golden Feather 22-23


<...
My question is, which is the best tracker to invest in if you consider the euro will lose value in the near term and money will pour into the dollar?
<...>
I think the best is the following one:

ETC Group to launch bitcoin ETP on Deutsche Boerse

It also should be available in UK, if I am not mistaken.
These are real BTC, not CFD...
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