| I spent this whole thread trying to figure out how people are willing to pay 40% premium on market price, but failed.
legendary
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Well, I wanted to doublecheck those informations with the ones I already Enclosed on my Spreadsheet. The result is that they overlap almost exactly:  [link]Only putting those images side to side one can realise the pace of Grayscale buying:  A little bit less than 20,000 BTC (more than 0.10% of total Bitcoin supply) in less than 10 days. 1 full BTC more in the daily management fee. 177,000 bitcoin bought in the last 100 days means they are now in track to buy in this last quarter more than the last two quarters combined.
legendary
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Leading Crypto Sports Betting & Casino Platform
Surfing news-feed on Coinbase. It's impressive, isn't it? In the past week, Grayscale has added an additional 14,591 Bitcoin & 105,000 ETH to their holdings.  Many people do not like and the objection is, it is not right for a group to have a significant amount of BTC. But the biggest fact is you can't prevent them. Many may wonder why the price of Bitcoin is not crossing ATH after they investing so much. In response, They just buy Bitcoin and sell the share, generally, they buy bitcoin directly from the miners at a lower price. Ever wondered what would happen when miners won't have enough bitcoin to sell! 
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No, registered clients, or rather accredited investors, can actually buy shares (not bitcoins) from Grayscale. They buy them at NAV value, without the premium usually attached to shares in the secondary market, the one all of us can access to.
Also they can buy shares with an in-kind purchase. This means they can purchares shares representing bitcoin with actual bitcoins.
Buy shares with the supports from Grayscale but what those buyers (also clients on Grayscale) have to do to cash out if they want to take profits. Will they have to do this action via Grayscale? Submit their sell requests/ tickets and wait for acceptance from Grayscale? How long the process can take or it can be done immediately (few seconds or a few minutes)? From last part of your post, I got the idea that Grayscales allow clients to be free to buy or sell shares of bitcoin on Grayscale' secondary market and it is a 24/7 market. Is it right?
legendary
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I've read the description but I still can't understand how Grayscale market works and whether it is different from a ponzi. I have several questions:
1. From whom registered clients purchase Bitcoins - from Grayscale (with a premium I guess) or from other clients like a regular exchange works?
No, registered clients, or rather accredited investors, can actually buy shares (not bitcoins) from Grayscale. They buy them at NAV value, without the premium usually attached to shares in the secondary market, the one all of us can access to. Also they can buy shares with an in-kind purchase. This means they can purchares shares representing bitcoin with actual bitcoins. 2. To whom registered clients sell Bitcoins - to Grayscale or to other clients?
3. Who is forming the buy/sell prices - Grayscale or the clients?
All clients, both registered or unregistered, sell their shares to other clients. Grayscale is never involved in the secondary market, not they mandated any market maker to develop a liquid market. They state in the website: 4. Everyone is talking about Grayscale buying bitcoins, but what about selling? Are they selling in the spot market at all?
Which selling? According to my spreadsheet Grayscale had 8 negative days. The last of those happening in Sep 2014. Client Buying shares greatly outnumber clients willing to sell. Net movement so is almost everyday net positive.
legendary
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All good things to those who wait
I've read the description but I still can't understand how Grayscale market works and whether it is different from a ponzi. I have several questions:
1. From whom registered clients purchase Bitcoins - from Grayscale (with a premium I guess) or from other clients like a regular exchange works?
2. To whom registered clients sell Bitcoins - to Grayscale or to other clients?
3. Who is forming the buy/sell prices - Grayscale or the clients?
4. Everyone is talking about Grayscale buying bitcoins, but what about selling? Are they selling in the spot market at all?
legendary
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I recently bumped into ByBit Grayscale page. It's s a nice summary of Grayscale, with various information:  [link]Well, I wanted to doublecheck those information with the ones I already Enclosed on my Spreadsheet. The result is that they overlap almost exactly:  [link]There are a few notable differences: - My Spreadsheet don't consider days where markets are closed, to it is actually a snapshot at Friday's COB values. The website instead updated at fixed times during the days, hence the flat difference over the last day (+ 0BTC vs Yesterday). During the week the worksheet are aligned. There is a little difference on the 30 days difference: I still have to understand why.
- I added a few information I think are relevant, and I already calculated in the spreadsheet: Restricted Shares (i.e. shares aren't freely available on the market to sell), total Grayscale holding in %age of total mined Bitcoins and the sum of daily fees for Grayscale, considering a 2% annual feed on the outstanding amount.
legendary
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May I be provocative here? What if we are in front of an institutional washing machine?
Who knows.
Well, this is an interesting point. 2% there would be a very competitive cut indeed. Usually those kind of operations runs at 30% cut. I don't know the technicalities here. I guess it would be difficult to pass the KYC/AML assessment while providing your Bitcoin (I guess the most probably way of doing a wash would be trough a in-kind buying). I don't think it would be easy, but maybe possible.
legendary
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<…>
All asset and wealth management firms rip-off their clients with unnecessary fees and premiums on their services. It doesn't matter if it's bitcoin or oil or an AI technology index. They will suck the lymph out of their clients' money to grease their never-ending mechanism.
It doesn't surprise me. And 2%, to be honest, doesn't look very high to me.
Are you kidding me? Many ETP’s (general definition for Exchange Traded Products) have a 0.25% fee. Some have a 0% fee. 0.50% fees means there is a special feature on those. Also do you know how much is it 2% yearly? If you buy a single bitcoin in GBTC after 5 years of holding you are left with 0.904 BTC. I don’t like that. I get what you mean man, but remember grayscale is not for us (otherwise they would have never reached those massive numbers). That is the price to pay to get exposure to btc for those overly rich companies, trust and entities which drown in useless fiat and need to diversify into btc. May I be provocative here? What if we are in front of an institutional washing machine? Who knows.
legendary
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Fully fledged Merit Cycler - Golden Feather 22-23
November has just ended, and it was a truly impressive month for Grayscale. In November Grayscale bought more Bitcoins than they did in September and October Combined.  They are regularly outpacing (don't nitpick September) the daily mined bitcoin number since last August, I said many times that this comparison is quite naive, but it serves the idea quite well. This put them in pace for a monster fourth quarter:  They are projected to buy more than 130,000 Bitcoin until the end of the year. I think they are actually going to easily beat that number, unless they close the primary market. 130,000 Bitcoin is an outstanding number, comparable with Q3 and Q2 combined. This would put EOY Grayscale AUM in Bitcoins at over 580,000 BTC, or more of 3% of mined Bitcoins.
legendary
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Fully fledged Merit Cycler - Golden Feather 22-23
ok so i just saw a grayscale commercial on tv, maybe an old one as i dont watch much tv really. it was the one where everyone is schlepping around gold bars and dropping it and such.
one thing that struck me as odd is they said something like "unlike gold bitcoin has actual utility." gold, being a noble metal, does have some utility as its good in electronics, most good connectors (like in audio, electronics slots, plugs and such) as its corrosion resistant and lowish resistance etc.
now its a very small percentage thats used for its actual physical properties as opposed to just storing it in bar/coin form or admiring how shiny it is in jewelry etc. so i supposed thats just a slight exaggeration but still.. kinda bugged me.
gold: exchange of value, storage of value, physical utility (small percentage)
btc: exchange of value, storage of value.
maybe im too picky..
edit: for those who dont know me, im more btc vs gold myself of course. but both are handy to have for various reasons.
This is the commercial, I think:  https://youtu.be/_BIDcmh_6EsIt payload is :”Drop Gold” Bitcoin, as digital gold, do what gold does, but in a better way. Of course the spot exaggerates the benefits of bitcoin over Gold (an heavy and not so mobile metal, difficult to store), without mentioning any eventual drawback ( hints :10 years of successful story, versus millennial successful story). Of course gold has utility and industrial value, but this is a very tiny percentage of the commercial value, which is dominated by the financial value due to scarcity. Otherwise other metals, way more useful, but more common, like silver or palladium, would have surged as store of value. On the other hand, what has more utility: a gold plated stereo jack, or the possibility to to send trustlessy and in an un-censorsble way money on the other side of the planet? (I.e: using bitcoin without SoV properties)
legendary
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what is this "brake pedal" you speak of?
ok so i just saw a grayscale commercial on tv, maybe an old one as i dont watch much tv really. it was the one where everyone is schlepping around gold bars and dropping it and such.
one thing that struck me as odd is they said something like "unlike gold bitcoin has actual utility." gold, being a noble metal, does have some utility as its good in electronics, most good connectors (like in audio, electronics slots, plugs and such) as its corrosion resistant and lowish resistance etc.
now its a very small percentage thats used for its actual physical properties as opposed to just storing it in bar/coin form or admiring how shiny it is in jewelry etc. so i supposed thats just a slight exaggeration but still.. kinda bugged me.
gold: exchange of value, storage of value, physical utility (small percentage)
btc: exchange of value, storage of value.
maybe im too picky..
edit: for those who dont know me, im more btc vs gold myself of course. but both are handy to have for various reasons.
legendary
Activity: 2268
Merit: 16328
Fully fledged Merit Cycler - Golden Feather 22-23
<…>
All asset and wealth management firms rip-off their clients with unnecessary fees and premiums on their services. It doesn't matter if it's bitcoin or oil or an AI technology index. They will suck the lymph out of their clients' money to grease their never-ending mechanism.
It doesn't surprise me. And 2%, to be honest, doesn't look very high to me.
Are you kidding me? Many ETP’s (general definition for Exchange Traded Products) have a 0.25% fee. Some have a 0% fee. 0.50% fees means there is a special feature on those. Also do you know how much is it 2% yearly? If you buy a single bitcoin in GBTC after 5 years of holding you are left with 0.904 BTC. I don’t like that.
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