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Topic: Evolution is a hoax - page 209. (Read 108173 times)

full member
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June 06, 2017, 06:14:46 PM
~edited

Great post here.

As Astargath says, none of these "mathematical" or "irreducible complexity" arguments make any sense.

You might believe that they somehow disprove evolution, but actual physicists and mathematicians disagree with you. That is because your arguments are flawed.

There is no physical, mathematical or biological reason why a single common ancestor (LUCA), couldn't have spawned all life on Earth. You might believe it not to be so, and no-one knows exactly how it happened... BUT there is no scientific reason that it is not possible. And don't forget, we are debating the evolution of LUCA, not it's origin.

Your evidence to the contrary is flawed, and every biologist, physicist and mathematician knows it.

I myself study biology, and your arguments are flawed on a basic level. Not only that, when you are challenged, you resort to saying "well we don't know for sure that the laws of physics were the same then..." or something similar. This is not how science works - we don't just disregard results because we think that physics might have been different at a certain time. Assuming such changes, makes all results erroneous, and therefore makes the scientific method erroneous. So if you want to put your faith in such speculation, you cannot by definition make any argument relying on the scientific method.

To do so would be a logical fallacy.

Saying a single common ancestor could have spawned all life on Earth, what do you consider an ancestor? At what point do we come from something that is not an ancestor such as the atoms. Are we considering plants being our possible ancestors? What about dolphins?

If we cannot disagree with what we know about science now, what about the science that existed in the past that does not today; such as, the building of the pyramids or finding the creation for beer?
legendary
Activity: 4046
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June 06, 2017, 05:48:30 PM
I don't know what you mean with cause and effect, explain. I don't know what you mean by complex universe either.
Complexity usually means something is hard to understand. But the fact that one cannot understand how something came to be does not indicate that one may conclude it was designed. On the contrary, lack of understanding indicates that we must not conclude design or anything else.

Irreducible complexity and complex specified information are special cases of the "complexity indicates design" claim; they are also arguments from incredulity.

In the sort of design that we know about, simplicity is a design goal. Complexity arises to some extent through carelessness or necessity, but engineers work to make things as simple as possible. This is very different from what we see in life.

Complexity arises from natural causes: for example, in weather patterns and cave formations.

Complexity is poorly defined.

Regarding Universal entropy: This idea has been put forward by many people to try to prove that evolution is impossible. However, it is based on a flawed understanding of the second law of thermodynamics, and in fact, the theory of evolution does not contradict any known laws of physics.

The second law of thermodynamics simply says that the entropy of a closed system will tend to increase with time. "Entropy" is a technical term with a precise physical definition, but for most purposes it is okay to think of it as equivalent to "disorder". Therefore, the second law of thermodynamics basically says that the universe as a whole gets more disordered and random as time goes on.

However, the most important part of the second law of thermodynamics is that it only applies to a closed system - one that does not have anything going in or out of it. There is nothing about the second law that prevents one part of a closed system from getting more ordered, as long as another part of the system is getting more disordered.

There are many examples from everyday life that prove it is possible to create order! For example, you'd certainly agree that a person is capable of taking a pile of wood and nails and constructing a building out of it. The wood and nails have become more ordered, but in doing the work required to make the building, the person has generated heat which goes into increasing the overall entropy of the universe.

Or, if you prefer an example that doesn't require conscious human intervention, consider what happens when the weather changes and it gets colder outside. Cold air has less entropy than warm air - basically, it is more "ordered" because the molecules aren't moving around as much and have fewer places they can be. So the entropy in your local part of the universe has decreased, but as long as that is accompanied by an increase in entropy somewhere else, the second law of thermodynamics has not been violated.

That's the general picture - nature is capable of generating order out of disorder on a local level without violating the second law of thermodynamics, and that is all that evolution requires.

The idea of evolution is simply that random genetic mutations will occasionally occur that lead an individual organism to have some trait that is different from that of its predecessors. Now, it is true that these mutations, being random, would probably tend to increase the "entropy" of the population as a whole if they occurred in isolation (i.e., in a closed system). That is, most of the mutations will create individual organisms that are less "ordered" (i.e., less complex) and only some will create individual organisms that are more complex, so overall, the complexity goes down.

However, evolution does not take place in a closed system, but rather requires the existence of outside forces - i.e., natural selection. The idea is that there can be some environmental effect that makes organisms with a particular mutation (one that makes them more "complex") more likely to survive and pass their genes on to the next generation. Thus, as generations go by, the gene pool of the species can get more and more complex, but notice that this can only occur if the gene pool interacts with the outside world. It is through the course of that interaction that some other form of entropy (or disorder) will be generated that increases the entropy of the universe as a whole.

If the above is too esoteric, consider a simple analogy: a poker tournament. In poker, good hands are less likely to be dealt than bad ones - for example, the odds of getting three of a kind are much less than the odds of getting two of a kind. So in a poker tournament, most people will be dealt bad hands and only a few will be lucky enough to be dealt good hands. But it is the people with good hands who will be more likely to win and "survive" to the next round. So the "outside forces" (in this case, the rules of poker) acting on a random distribution (all the poker hands that were dealt) will tend to select out the best, least likely ones.

Do you even do some research before posting a bunch of crap? Just google it my friend.

Great post here.

As Astargath says, none of these "mathematical" or "irreducible complexity" arguments make any sense.

You might believe that they somehow disprove evolution, but actual physicists and mathematicians disagree with you. That is because your arguments are flawed.

There is no physical, mathematical or biological reason why a single common ancestor (LUCA), couldn't have spawned all life on Earth. You might believe it not to be so, and no-one knows exactly how it happened... BUT there is no scientific reason that it is not possible. And don't forget, we are debating the evolution of LUCA, not it's origin.

Your evidence to the contrary is flawed, and every biologist, physicist and mathematician knows it.

I myself study biology, and your arguments are flawed on a basic level. Not only that, when you are challenged, you resort to saying "well we don't know for sure that the laws of physics were the same then..." or something similar. This is not how science works - we don't just disregard results because we think that physics might have been different at a certain time. Assuming such changes, makes all results erroneous, and therefore makes the scientific method erroneous. So if you want to put your faith in such speculation, you cannot by definition make any argument relying on the scientific method.

To do so would be a logical fallacy.

Most of us have heard of rust. The longer something sits out in nature, the more it corrodes. Iron gets rustier the longer it sits out.

Most of us have heard of decay. A chunk of cheese gets moldy. A piece of meat gets rotten. The longer it sits out, the more it decays.

If the chemicals that make up a living cell (except that it isn't living, yet), happened to come together in the correct positions to form a living cell, the chemical soup that allowed this to happen would immediately corrode the potential cell before it had the chance to form life.

If the chemicals came together over a period of time, they would corrode just like iron rusts. The longer it took for them to come together into the right places by chance, the more corrosion there would be.

Either way, probability math in any form that we can come up with doesn't allow for a formation of cell chemicals, by chance, in nature. But, even if it did, then the chemicals would all have to be pushed into motion, in just the right places, at just the right time, with exactly the right "zap" of electricity, for the potential cell to come to life.

By any understanding of nature that we can envision, this is impossible. If it were possible for nature to do it by chance, we would be able to do it in the lab. We aren't really even close to doing this from scratch, even though we have many cells available to use as patterns. Dumb nature certainly isn't going to do it.

Because of all this, there is no logical reason to believe in any evolution without guidance from intelligence. And, that intelligence would have to be a lot greater and more capable than ours is.

Scientists can talk all kinds of stuff. But they can't talk away the impossibility of nature to created a living cell by random chance. Probability math won't allow it. And, in the same way, probability math won't allow the changes in a living thing/cell that it would be required for it to mutate in a beneficial way.

Evolution is a religion, and a sorry one. It's almost as bad of a religion as atheism.

Cool
sr. member
Activity: 630
Merit: 263
June 06, 2017, 04:57:03 PM
The theory of evolution is very controversial, but we can't deny obvious things. I do not believe that man evolved from apes, but there are other aspects. More close to our reality. Look for example at women. The bulk of them takes the forms of which are fashionable at this time. Isn't this evolution? Viruses adapting to antibiotics. I believe in evolution, but I don't believe in Darwin's theory.
legendary
Activity: 1188
Merit: 1016
June 06, 2017, 03:29:53 PM
I don't know what you mean with cause and effect, explain. I don't know what you mean by complex universe either.
Complexity usually means something is hard to understand. But the fact that one cannot understand how something came to be does not indicate that one may conclude it was designed. On the contrary, lack of understanding indicates that we must not conclude design or anything else.

Irreducible complexity and complex specified information are special cases of the "complexity indicates design" claim; they are also arguments from incredulity.

In the sort of design that we know about, simplicity is a design goal. Complexity arises to some extent through carelessness or necessity, but engineers work to make things as simple as possible. This is very different from what we see in life.

Complexity arises from natural causes: for example, in weather patterns and cave formations.

Complexity is poorly defined.

Regarding Universal entropy: This idea has been put forward by many people to try to prove that evolution is impossible. However, it is based on a flawed understanding of the second law of thermodynamics, and in fact, the theory of evolution does not contradict any known laws of physics.

The second law of thermodynamics simply says that the entropy of a closed system will tend to increase with time. "Entropy" is a technical term with a precise physical definition, but for most purposes it is okay to think of it as equivalent to "disorder". Therefore, the second law of thermodynamics basically says that the universe as a whole gets more disordered and random as time goes on.

However, the most important part of the second law of thermodynamics is that it only applies to a closed system - one that does not have anything going in or out of it. There is nothing about the second law that prevents one part of a closed system from getting more ordered, as long as another part of the system is getting more disordered.

There are many examples from everyday life that prove it is possible to create order! For example, you'd certainly agree that a person is capable of taking a pile of wood and nails and constructing a building out of it. The wood and nails have become more ordered, but in doing the work required to make the building, the person has generated heat which goes into increasing the overall entropy of the universe.

Or, if you prefer an example that doesn't require conscious human intervention, consider what happens when the weather changes and it gets colder outside. Cold air has less entropy than warm air - basically, it is more "ordered" because the molecules aren't moving around as much and have fewer places they can be. So the entropy in your local part of the universe has decreased, but as long as that is accompanied by an increase in entropy somewhere else, the second law of thermodynamics has not been violated.

That's the general picture - nature is capable of generating order out of disorder on a local level without violating the second law of thermodynamics, and that is all that evolution requires.

The idea of evolution is simply that random genetic mutations will occasionally occur that lead an individual organism to have some trait that is different from that of its predecessors. Now, it is true that these mutations, being random, would probably tend to increase the "entropy" of the population as a whole if they occurred in isolation (i.e., in a closed system). That is, most of the mutations will create individual organisms that are less "ordered" (i.e., less complex) and only some will create individual organisms that are more complex, so overall, the complexity goes down.

However, evolution does not take place in a closed system, but rather requires the existence of outside forces - i.e., natural selection. The idea is that there can be some environmental effect that makes organisms with a particular mutation (one that makes them more "complex") more likely to survive and pass their genes on to the next generation. Thus, as generations go by, the gene pool of the species can get more and more complex, but notice that this can only occur if the gene pool interacts with the outside world. It is through the course of that interaction that some other form of entropy (or disorder) will be generated that increases the entropy of the universe as a whole.

If the above is too esoteric, consider a simple analogy: a poker tournament. In poker, good hands are less likely to be dealt than bad ones - for example, the odds of getting three of a kind are much less than the odds of getting two of a kind. So in a poker tournament, most people will be dealt bad hands and only a few will be lucky enough to be dealt good hands. But it is the people with good hands who will be more likely to win and "survive" to the next round. So the "outside forces" (in this case, the rules of poker) acting on a random distribution (all the poker hands that were dealt) will tend to select out the best, least likely ones.

Do you even do some research before posting a bunch of crap? Just google it my friend.

Great post here.

As Astargath says, none of these "mathematical" or "irreducible complexity" arguments make any sense.

You might believe that they somehow disprove evolution, but actual physicists and mathematicians disagree with you. That is because your arguments are flawed.

There is no physical, mathematical or biological reason why a single common ancestor (LUCA), couldn't have spawned all life on Earth. You might believe it not to be so, and no-one knows exactly how it happened... BUT there is no scientific reason that it is not possible. And don't forget, we are debating the evolution of LUCA, not it's origin.

Your evidence to the contrary is flawed, and every biologist, physicist and mathematician knows it.

I myself study biology, and your arguments are flawed on a basic level. Not only that, when you are challenged, you resort to saying "well we don't know for sure that the laws of physics were the same then..." or something similar. This is not how science works - we don't just disregard results because we think that physics might have been different at a certain time. Assuming such changes, makes all results erroneous, and therefore makes the scientific method erroneous. So if you want to put your faith in such speculation, you cannot by definition make any argument relying on the scientific method.

To do so would be a logical fallacy.
legendary
Activity: 4046
Merit: 1389
June 06, 2017, 12:23:40 PM
Why there are still monkeys around if they were part of our evolutionary beginnings ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cz0gFarCfBE

Yes, Charles Darwin's theory is a hoax. Monkeys are still in our planet because they are part of the ecosystem. As we all know, the theory of evolution of Charles Darwin was not totally proven. Just think of it, if humans evolved from monkeys, how come there are still monkeys? It's just a manifestation that there's a supreme God who created all things.

Exactly. Rational scientific thinking is not present in the evolution theory, because it's a belief system rather than any scientific theory and is basically defended with arguments like 'I want it to be true so that I can do what ever I want' and 'I'm more intelligent than you because I believe in evolution', which doesn't mean anything.

Are you shitting me? The evolution theory is a belief system? You obviously are trolling or very ignorant. The evidence for the evolution is overwhelming, in fact scientists have been able to apply evolution to numerous things including computer science. Anyone who says evolution is a hoax or not true, clearly does not understand evolution, is trolling or is delusional.

Evolution IS a belief system because it has been proven impossible by probability math, Irreducible Complexity, no missing links ever having been found, and loads of other reasons. Google "proofs against evolution" to see many more.

You will see that all the proofs in favor of evolution, and all the evolutionist rebuttals against creationist anti-evolution proofs, are filled with circular ideas and many words, but no proof, rather than things that have a solid foundation with points in simple, short paragraphs, like anti-evolution points.

Cool

EDIT: Notice the language in the post by Astargath. It isn't designed so much to bring out evolution points. Rather, it is designed to humiliate the ridery99. Look at the language. Astargath has to resort to this language, because evolution doesn't have any proof. If he didn't, he would be in danger of being shown to support a false religion, just like all the evolutionists are doing.
hero member
Activity: 1624
Merit: 645
June 06, 2017, 05:57:21 AM
Why there are still monkeys around if they were part of our evolutionary beginnings ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cz0gFarCfBE

Yes, Charles Darwin's theory is a hoax. Monkeys are still in our planet because they are part of the ecosystem. As we all know, the theory of evolution of Charles Darwin was not totally proven. Just think of it, if humans evolved from monkeys, how come there are still monkeys? It's just a manifestation that there's a supreme God who created all things.

Exactly. Rational scientific thinking is not present in the evolution theory, because it's a belief system rather than any scientific theory and is basically defended with arguments like 'I want it to be true so that I can do what ever I want' and 'I'm more intelligent than you because I believe in evolution', which doesn't mean anything.

Are you shitting me? The evolution theory is a belief system? You obviously are trolling or very ignorant. The evidence for the evolution is overwhelming, in fact scientists have been able to apply evolution to numerous things including computer science. Anyone who says evolution is a hoax or not true, clearly does not understand evolution, is trolling or is delusional.
hero member
Activity: 616
Merit: 500
June 06, 2017, 02:05:46 AM
Why there are still monkeys around if they were part of our evolutionary beginnings ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cz0gFarCfBE

Yes, Charles Darwin's theory is a hoax. Monkeys are still in our planet because they are part of the ecosystem. As we all know, the theory of evolution of Charles Darwin was not totally proven. Just think of it, if humans evolved from monkeys, how come there are still monkeys? It's just a manifestation that there's a supreme God who created all things.

Exactly. Rational scientific thinking is not present in the evolution theory, because it's a belief system rather than any scientific theory and is basically defended with arguments like 'I want it to be true so that I can do what ever I want' and 'I'm more intelligent than you because I believe in evolution', which doesn't mean anything.
hero member
Activity: 3024
Merit: 580
Hire Bitcointalk Camp. Manager @ r7promotions.com
June 06, 2017, 12:39:38 AM
Why there are still monkeys around if they were part of our evolutionary beginnings ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cz0gFarCfBE

Yes, Charles Darwin's theory is a hoax. Monkeys are still in our planet because they are part of the ecosystem. As we all know, the theory of evolution of Charles Darwin was not totally proven. Just come to think of it, if humans evolved from monkeys, how come there are still monkeys? It's just a manifestation that there's a supreme God who created all things.
hero member
Activity: 1624
Merit: 645
June 04, 2017, 06:51:41 AM
All of your claims have been debunked badecker.

Irreducible complexity can evolve. It is defined as a system that loses its function if any one part is removed, so it only indicates that the system did not evolve by the addition of single parts with no change in function. That still leaves several evolutionary mechanisms:

deletion of parts
addition of multiple parts; for example, duplication of much or all of the system (Pennisi 2001)
change of function
addition of a second function to a part (Aharoni et al. 2004)
gradual modification of parts

All of these mechanisms have been observed in genetic mutations. In particular, deletions and gene duplications are fairly common (Dujon et al. 2004; Hooper and Berg 2003; Lynch and Conery 2000), and together they make irreducible complexity not only possible but expected. In fact, it was predicted by Nobel-prize-winning geneticist Hermann Muller almost a century ago (Muller 1918, 463-464). Muller referred to it as interlocking complexity (Muller 1939).

Evolutionary origins of some irreducibly complex systems have been described in some detail. For example, the evolution of the Krebs citric acid cycle has been well studied (Meléndez-Hevia et al. 1996), and the evolution of an "irreducible" system of a hormone-receptor system has been elucidated (Bridgham et al. 2006). Irreducibility is no obstacle to their formation.

Even if irreducible complexity did prohibit Darwinian evolution, the conclusion of design does not follow. Other processes might have produced it. Irreducible complexity is an example of a failed argument from incredulity.

Irreducible complexity is poorly defined. It is defined in terms of parts, but it is far from obvious what a "part" is. Logically, the parts should be individual atoms, because they are the level of organization that does not get subdivided further in biochemistry, and they are the smallest level that biochemists consider in their analysis. Behe, however, considered sets of molecules to be individual parts, and he gave no indication of how he made his determinations.

Systems that have been considered irreducibly complex might not be. For example:
The mousetrap that Behe used as an example of irreducible complexity can be simplified by bending the holding arm slightly and removing the latch.
The bacterial flagellum is not irreducibly complex because it can lose many parts and still function, either as a simpler flagellum or a secretion system. Many proteins of the eukaryotic flagellum (also called a cilium or undulipodium) are known to be dispensable, because functional swimming flagella that lack these proteins are known to exist.
In spite of the complexity of Behe's protein transport example, there are other proteins for which no transport is necessary (see Ussery 1999 for references).
The immune system example that Behe includes is not irreducibly complex because the antibodies that mark invading cells for destruction might themselves hinder the function of those cells, allowing the system to function (albeit not as well) without the destroyer molecules of the complement system.


http://experimentalmath.info/blog/2009/08/misuse-of-probability-by-creation-scientists-and-others/

Stop spreading your lies badecker.

What do you even mean, "Irreducible complexity can evolve?"

The simple words, "Irreducible complexity" means that there is nothing useful from which an irreducible complexity component can evolve from. Evolution has to have some thing that is useful in mind for it to evolve that way. Nature doesn't simply evolve a clump of useless cells, that sit there for millions of years, continually evolving from less complex useless cells to more complex useless cells, with the idea that someday there will be an eye that will be useful to the then-evolved creature. To suggest this is to suggest great inteligence and planning in nature. This doesn't fit any theory of evolution.

For example. Let's say that you have a human eye. There is simply nothing that would flow in stages from something rather simple to something as complex as the human eye. According to evolution theory, there has to be some use for every little thing that evolves. There is no evolution explantation for a jump from a clump of useless cells to an eye. But that's what they would be... useless cells. Because there is no use for them prior to becoming an eye.

However, all that talk is playing with the idea of evolution. Cause and effect show that things are programmed. Not only life things, but everything. So, whatever you want to call evolution, it was programmed through cause and effect by something that is extremely greater than the whole universe, both in ability and intelligence.

There is no evidence of random chance changes without cause and effect. Such a thing does not even fit our thinking. All science is built on cause and effect. The greater the scientist, the more he uses cause and effect. All the scietists you quoted CAUSED the happenings that they observed. None of them watched these things happen in nature without manipulation of nature in some way.

Cool

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Irreducible_complexity

Like intelligent design, the concept it seeks to support, irreducible complexity has failed to gain any notable acceptance within the scientific community. One science writer called it a "full-blown intellectual surrender strategy" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irreducible_complexity#Methods_by_which_irreducible_complexity_may_evolve

As I said, it's debunked. It's pseudoscience without any grounds.

Radioactive decay is so far true randomness

https://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/177872/true-randomness-via-radioactive-decay

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radioactive_decay

Your pseudoscience cannot refute the facts, sorry. Evolution is a fact and you can't accept it because your religion has infected your brain. I'm truly sorry for you.

Regarding the eye argument which is used by many creationists:

This is the quintessential example of the argument from incredulity. The source making the claim usually quotes Darwin saying that the evolution of the eye seems "absurd in the highest degree". However, Darwin follows that statement with a three-and-a-half-page proposal of intermediate stages through which eyes might have evolved via gradual steps (Darwin 1872).

photosensitive cell
aggregates of pigment cells without a nerve
an optic nerve surrounded by pigment cells and covered by translucent skin
pigment cells forming a small depression
pigment cells forming a deeper depression
the skin over the depression taking a lens shape
muscles allowing the lens to adjust

All of these steps are known to be viable because all exist in animals living today. The increments between these steps are slight and may be broken down into even smaller increments. Natural selection should, under many circumstances, favor the increments. Since eyes do not fossilize well, we do not know that the development of the eye followed exactly that path, but we certainly cannot claim that no path exists.

Evidence for one step in the evolution of the vertebrate eye comes from comparative anatomy and genetics. The vertebrate βγ-crystallin genes, which code for several proteins crucial for the lens, are very similar to the Ciona βγ-crystallin gene. Ciona is an urochordate, a distant relative of vertebrates. Ciona's single βγ-crystallin gene is expressed in its otolith, a pigmented sister cell of the light-sensing ocellus. The origin of the lens appears to be based on co-optation of previously existing elements in a lensless system.

Nilsson and Pelger (1994) calculated that if each step were a 1 percent change, the evolution of the eye would take 1,829 steps, which could happen in 364,000 generations.


http://evolutionfaq.com/faq/eye-too-complex-have-evolved-naturally

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/The_eye_is_too_complex_to_have_evolved



You forgot the part where cause and effect debunks all of evolution, as well as evolution theory. No scientist has any credible explanation for cause and effect being part of evolution, especially if you add universal entropy, and complex universe to the mix.

Cool

I don't know what you mean with cause and effect, explain. I don't know what you mean by complex universe either.
Complexity usually means something is hard to understand. But the fact that one cannot understand how something came to be does not indicate that one may conclude it was designed. On the contrary, lack of understanding indicates that we must not conclude design or anything else.

Irreducible complexity and complex specified information are special cases of the "complexity indicates design" claim; they are also arguments from incredulity.

In the sort of design that we know about, simplicity is a design goal. Complexity arises to some extent through carelessness or necessity, but engineers work to make things as simple as possible. This is very different from what we see in life.

Complexity arises from natural causes: for example, in weather patterns and cave formations.

Complexity is poorly defined.

Regarding Universal entropy: This idea has been put forward by many people to try to prove that evolution is impossible. However, it is based on a flawed understanding of the second law of thermodynamics, and in fact, the theory of evolution does not contradict any known laws of physics.

The second law of thermodynamics simply says that the entropy of a closed system will tend to increase with time. "Entropy" is a technical term with a precise physical definition, but for most purposes it is okay to think of it as equivalent to "disorder". Therefore, the second law of thermodynamics basically says that the universe as a whole gets more disordered and random as time goes on.

However, the most important part of the second law of thermodynamics is that it only applies to a closed system - one that does not have anything going in or out of it. There is nothing about the second law that prevents one part of a closed system from getting more ordered, as long as another part of the system is getting more disordered.

There are many examples from everyday life that prove it is possible to create order! For example, you'd certainly agree that a person is capable of taking a pile of wood and nails and constructing a building out of it. The wood and nails have become more ordered, but in doing the work required to make the building, the person has generated heat which goes into increasing the overall entropy of the universe.

Or, if you prefer an example that doesn't require conscious human intervention, consider what happens when the weather changes and it gets colder outside. Cold air has less entropy than warm air - basically, it is more "ordered" because the molecules aren't moving around as much and have fewer places they can be. So the entropy in your local part of the universe has decreased, but as long as that is accompanied by an increase in entropy somewhere else, the second law of thermodynamics has not been violated.

That's the general picture - nature is capable of generating order out of disorder on a local level without violating the second law of thermodynamics, and that is all that evolution requires.

The idea of evolution is simply that random genetic mutations will occasionally occur that lead an individual organism to have some trait that is different from that of its predecessors. Now, it is true that these mutations, being random, would probably tend to increase the "entropy" of the population as a whole if they occurred in isolation (i.e., in a closed system). That is, most of the mutations will create individual organisms that are less "ordered" (i.e., less complex) and only some will create individual organisms that are more complex, so overall, the complexity goes down.

However, evolution does not take place in a closed system, but rather requires the existence of outside forces - i.e., natural selection. The idea is that there can be some environmental effect that makes organisms with a particular mutation (one that makes them more "complex") more likely to survive and pass their genes on to the next generation. Thus, as generations go by, the gene pool of the species can get more and more complex, but notice that this can only occur if the gene pool interacts with the outside world. It is through the course of that interaction that some other form of entropy (or disorder) will be generated that increases the entropy of the universe as a whole.

If the above is too esoteric, consider a simple analogy: a poker tournament. In poker, good hands are less likely to be dealt than bad ones - for example, the odds of getting three of a kind are much less than the odds of getting two of a kind. So in a poker tournament, most people will be dealt bad hands and only a few will be lucky enough to be dealt good hands. But it is the people with good hands who will be more likely to win and "survive" to the next round. So the "outside forces" (in this case, the rules of poker) acting on a random distribution (all the poker hands that were dealt) will tend to select out the best, least likely ones.

Do you even do some research before posting a bunch of crap? Just google it my friend.

You might Google "cause and effect" for many explanations. Possibly the best explanation is Newton's 3rd Law.

Whatever things people include in the term "evolution," if evolution happens by cause and effect, then it might be real. If it doesn't, then it isn't.

The general understanding of "evolution" suggests randomness, of which there is none. Thus, evolution by the general understanding is wrong.

All your explanations are people playing with science fiction.

Cool

Newton 3rd law: If an object A exerts a force on object B, then object B must exert a force of equal magnitude and opposite direction back on object A. I fail to see how that disproves evolution.

Your problem is that you transposed the idea of Newton's 3rd Law incorrectly. You gotta say it right. It shows how cause and effect work.

Cool

Welcome to the world of BADecker..... he is happy to tell you what you "supposedly" did or said wrong, however, he cannot explain how he perceives it is meant to be.

He can't prove anything except say people are wrong.

His pseudo science fails him every time.

I know, he keeps mentioning cause and effect and that is newton's 3rd law but he can't explain what it means. As far as I understand it, he means that everything has a cause which wouldn't, by any means, make evolution impossible. He just can't really refute anything I said so he just simply says im wrong without explaining why.
sr. member
Activity: 294
Merit: 250
June 04, 2017, 05:37:01 AM
All of your claims have been debunked badecker.

Irreducible complexity can evolve. It is defined as a system that loses its function if any one part is removed, so it only indicates that the system did not evolve by the addition of single parts with no change in function. That still leaves several evolutionary mechanisms:

deletion of parts
addition of multiple parts; for example, duplication of much or all of the system (Pennisi 2001)
change of function
addition of a second function to a part (Aharoni et al. 2004)
gradual modification of parts

All of these mechanisms have been observed in genetic mutations. In particular, deletions and gene duplications are fairly common (Dujon et al. 2004; Hooper and Berg 2003; Lynch and Conery 2000), and together they make irreducible complexity not only possible but expected. In fact, it was predicted by Nobel-prize-winning geneticist Hermann Muller almost a century ago (Muller 1918, 463-464). Muller referred to it as interlocking complexity (Muller 1939).

Evolutionary origins of some irreducibly complex systems have been described in some detail. For example, the evolution of the Krebs citric acid cycle has been well studied (Meléndez-Hevia et al. 1996), and the evolution of an "irreducible" system of a hormone-receptor system has been elucidated (Bridgham et al. 2006). Irreducibility is no obstacle to their formation.

Even if irreducible complexity did prohibit Darwinian evolution, the conclusion of design does not follow. Other processes might have produced it. Irreducible complexity is an example of a failed argument from incredulity.

Irreducible complexity is poorly defined. It is defined in terms of parts, but it is far from obvious what a "part" is. Logically, the parts should be individual atoms, because they are the level of organization that does not get subdivided further in biochemistry, and they are the smallest level that biochemists consider in their analysis. Behe, however, considered sets of molecules to be individual parts, and he gave no indication of how he made his determinations.

Systems that have been considered irreducibly complex might not be. For example:
The mousetrap that Behe used as an example of irreducible complexity can be simplified by bending the holding arm slightly and removing the latch.
The bacterial flagellum is not irreducibly complex because it can lose many parts and still function, either as a simpler flagellum or a secretion system. Many proteins of the eukaryotic flagellum (also called a cilium or undulipodium) are known to be dispensable, because functional swimming flagella that lack these proteins are known to exist.
In spite of the complexity of Behe's protein transport example, there are other proteins for which no transport is necessary (see Ussery 1999 for references).
The immune system example that Behe includes is not irreducibly complex because the antibodies that mark invading cells for destruction might themselves hinder the function of those cells, allowing the system to function (albeit not as well) without the destroyer molecules of the complement system.


http://experimentalmath.info/blog/2009/08/misuse-of-probability-by-creation-scientists-and-others/

Stop spreading your lies badecker.

What do you even mean, "Irreducible complexity can evolve?"

The simple words, "Irreducible complexity" means that there is nothing useful from which an irreducible complexity component can evolve from. Evolution has to have some thing that is useful in mind for it to evolve that way. Nature doesn't simply evolve a clump of useless cells, that sit there for millions of years, continually evolving from less complex useless cells to more complex useless cells, with the idea that someday there will be an eye that will be useful to the then-evolved creature. To suggest this is to suggest great inteligence and planning in nature. This doesn't fit any theory of evolution.

For example. Let's say that you have a human eye. There is simply nothing that would flow in stages from something rather simple to something as complex as the human eye. According to evolution theory, there has to be some use for every little thing that evolves. There is no evolution explantation for a jump from a clump of useless cells to an eye. But that's what they would be... useless cells. Because there is no use for them prior to becoming an eye.

However, all that talk is playing with the idea of evolution. Cause and effect show that things are programmed. Not only life things, but everything. So, whatever you want to call evolution, it was programmed through cause and effect by something that is extremely greater than the whole universe, both in ability and intelligence.

There is no evidence of random chance changes without cause and effect. Such a thing does not even fit our thinking. All science is built on cause and effect. The greater the scientist, the more he uses cause and effect. All the scietists you quoted CAUSED the happenings that they observed. None of them watched these things happen in nature without manipulation of nature in some way.

Cool

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Irreducible_complexity

Like intelligent design, the concept it seeks to support, irreducible complexity has failed to gain any notable acceptance within the scientific community. One science writer called it a "full-blown intellectual surrender strategy" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irreducible_complexity#Methods_by_which_irreducible_complexity_may_evolve

As I said, it's debunked. It's pseudoscience without any grounds.

Radioactive decay is so far true randomness

https://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/177872/true-randomness-via-radioactive-decay

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radioactive_decay

Your pseudoscience cannot refute the facts, sorry. Evolution is a fact and you can't accept it because your religion has infected your brain. I'm truly sorry for you.

Regarding the eye argument which is used by many creationists:

This is the quintessential example of the argument from incredulity. The source making the claim usually quotes Darwin saying that the evolution of the eye seems "absurd in the highest degree". However, Darwin follows that statement with a three-and-a-half-page proposal of intermediate stages through which eyes might have evolved via gradual steps (Darwin 1872).

photosensitive cell
aggregates of pigment cells without a nerve
an optic nerve surrounded by pigment cells and covered by translucent skin
pigment cells forming a small depression
pigment cells forming a deeper depression
the skin over the depression taking a lens shape
muscles allowing the lens to adjust

All of these steps are known to be viable because all exist in animals living today. The increments between these steps are slight and may be broken down into even smaller increments. Natural selection should, under many circumstances, favor the increments. Since eyes do not fossilize well, we do not know that the development of the eye followed exactly that path, but we certainly cannot claim that no path exists.

Evidence for one step in the evolution of the vertebrate eye comes from comparative anatomy and genetics. The vertebrate βγ-crystallin genes, which code for several proteins crucial for the lens, are very similar to the Ciona βγ-crystallin gene. Ciona is an urochordate, a distant relative of vertebrates. Ciona's single βγ-crystallin gene is expressed in its otolith, a pigmented sister cell of the light-sensing ocellus. The origin of the lens appears to be based on co-optation of previously existing elements in a lensless system.

Nilsson and Pelger (1994) calculated that if each step were a 1 percent change, the evolution of the eye would take 1,829 steps, which could happen in 364,000 generations.


http://evolutionfaq.com/faq/eye-too-complex-have-evolved-naturally

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/The_eye_is_too_complex_to_have_evolved



You forgot the part where cause and effect debunks all of evolution, as well as evolution theory. No scientist has any credible explanation for cause and effect being part of evolution, especially if you add universal entropy, and complex universe to the mix.

Cool

I don't know what you mean with cause and effect, explain. I don't know what you mean by complex universe either.
Complexity usually means something is hard to understand. But the fact that one cannot understand how something came to be does not indicate that one may conclude it was designed. On the contrary, lack of understanding indicates that we must not conclude design or anything else.

Irreducible complexity and complex specified information are special cases of the "complexity indicates design" claim; they are also arguments from incredulity.

In the sort of design that we know about, simplicity is a design goal. Complexity arises to some extent through carelessness or necessity, but engineers work to make things as simple as possible. This is very different from what we see in life.

Complexity arises from natural causes: for example, in weather patterns and cave formations.

Complexity is poorly defined.

Regarding Universal entropy: This idea has been put forward by many people to try to prove that evolution is impossible. However, it is based on a flawed understanding of the second law of thermodynamics, and in fact, the theory of evolution does not contradict any known laws of physics.

The second law of thermodynamics simply says that the entropy of a closed system will tend to increase with time. "Entropy" is a technical term with a precise physical definition, but for most purposes it is okay to think of it as equivalent to "disorder". Therefore, the second law of thermodynamics basically says that the universe as a whole gets more disordered and random as time goes on.

However, the most important part of the second law of thermodynamics is that it only applies to a closed system - one that does not have anything going in or out of it. There is nothing about the second law that prevents one part of a closed system from getting more ordered, as long as another part of the system is getting more disordered.

There are many examples from everyday life that prove it is possible to create order! For example, you'd certainly agree that a person is capable of taking a pile of wood and nails and constructing a building out of it. The wood and nails have become more ordered, but in doing the work required to make the building, the person has generated heat which goes into increasing the overall entropy of the universe.

Or, if you prefer an example that doesn't require conscious human intervention, consider what happens when the weather changes and it gets colder outside. Cold air has less entropy than warm air - basically, it is more "ordered" because the molecules aren't moving around as much and have fewer places they can be. So the entropy in your local part of the universe has decreased, but as long as that is accompanied by an increase in entropy somewhere else, the second law of thermodynamics has not been violated.

That's the general picture - nature is capable of generating order out of disorder on a local level without violating the second law of thermodynamics, and that is all that evolution requires.

The idea of evolution is simply that random genetic mutations will occasionally occur that lead an individual organism to have some trait that is different from that of its predecessors. Now, it is true that these mutations, being random, would probably tend to increase the "entropy" of the population as a whole if they occurred in isolation (i.e., in a closed system). That is, most of the mutations will create individual organisms that are less "ordered" (i.e., less complex) and only some will create individual organisms that are more complex, so overall, the complexity goes down.

However, evolution does not take place in a closed system, but rather requires the existence of outside forces - i.e., natural selection. The idea is that there can be some environmental effect that makes organisms with a particular mutation (one that makes them more "complex") more likely to survive and pass their genes on to the next generation. Thus, as generations go by, the gene pool of the species can get more and more complex, but notice that this can only occur if the gene pool interacts with the outside world. It is through the course of that interaction that some other form of entropy (or disorder) will be generated that increases the entropy of the universe as a whole.

If the above is too esoteric, consider a simple analogy: a poker tournament. In poker, good hands are less likely to be dealt than bad ones - for example, the odds of getting three of a kind are much less than the odds of getting two of a kind. So in a poker tournament, most people will be dealt bad hands and only a few will be lucky enough to be dealt good hands. But it is the people with good hands who will be more likely to win and "survive" to the next round. So the "outside forces" (in this case, the rules of poker) acting on a random distribution (all the poker hands that were dealt) will tend to select out the best, least likely ones.

Do you even do some research before posting a bunch of crap? Just google it my friend.

You might Google "cause and effect" for many explanations. Possibly the best explanation is Newton's 3rd Law.

Whatever things people include in the term "evolution," if evolution happens by cause and effect, then it might be real. If it doesn't, then it isn't.

The general understanding of "evolution" suggests randomness, of which there is none. Thus, evolution by the general understanding is wrong.

All your explanations are people playing with science fiction.

Cool

Newton 3rd law: If an object A exerts a force on object B, then object B must exert a force of equal magnitude and opposite direction back on object A. I fail to see how that disproves evolution.

Your problem is that you transposed the idea of Newton's 3rd Law incorrectly. You gotta say it right. It shows how cause and effect work.

Cool

Welcome to the world of BADecker..... he is happy to tell you what you "supposedly" did or said wrong, however, he cannot explain how he perceives it is meant to be.

He can't prove anything except say people are wrong.

His pseudo science fails him every time.
hero member
Activity: 616
Merit: 500
June 04, 2017, 05:28:20 AM
"Evolution is a hoax" thread got to 14 pages.....There are trolls in our midst

Yeah, it's absurd how dumbed down people are these days.
Complete lies like evolution being defended with pseudo-science and many people calling it a real science.
I think it's very dangerous because it undermines the credibility of all the real scientific research.
legendary
Activity: 4046
Merit: 1389
June 03, 2017, 07:10:05 PM
All of your claims have been debunked badecker.

Irreducible complexity can evolve. It is defined as a system that loses its function if any one part is removed, so it only indicates that the system did not evolve by the addition of single parts with no change in function. That still leaves several evolutionary mechanisms:

deletion of parts
addition of multiple parts; for example, duplication of much or all of the system (Pennisi 2001)
change of function
addition of a second function to a part (Aharoni et al. 2004)
gradual modification of parts

All of these mechanisms have been observed in genetic mutations. In particular, deletions and gene duplications are fairly common (Dujon et al. 2004; Hooper and Berg 2003; Lynch and Conery 2000), and together they make irreducible complexity not only possible but expected. In fact, it was predicted by Nobel-prize-winning geneticist Hermann Muller almost a century ago (Muller 1918, 463-464). Muller referred to it as interlocking complexity (Muller 1939).

Evolutionary origins of some irreducibly complex systems have been described in some detail. For example, the evolution of the Krebs citric acid cycle has been well studied (Meléndez-Hevia et al. 1996), and the evolution of an "irreducible" system of a hormone-receptor system has been elucidated (Bridgham et al. 2006). Irreducibility is no obstacle to their formation.

Even if irreducible complexity did prohibit Darwinian evolution, the conclusion of design does not follow. Other processes might have produced it. Irreducible complexity is an example of a failed argument from incredulity.

Irreducible complexity is poorly defined. It is defined in terms of parts, but it is far from obvious what a "part" is. Logically, the parts should be individual atoms, because they are the level of organization that does not get subdivided further in biochemistry, and they are the smallest level that biochemists consider in their analysis. Behe, however, considered sets of molecules to be individual parts, and he gave no indication of how he made his determinations.

Systems that have been considered irreducibly complex might not be. For example:
The mousetrap that Behe used as an example of irreducible complexity can be simplified by bending the holding arm slightly and removing the latch.
The bacterial flagellum is not irreducibly complex because it can lose many parts and still function, either as a simpler flagellum or a secretion system. Many proteins of the eukaryotic flagellum (also called a cilium or undulipodium) are known to be dispensable, because functional swimming flagella that lack these proteins are known to exist.
In spite of the complexity of Behe's protein transport example, there are other proteins for which no transport is necessary (see Ussery 1999 for references).
The immune system example that Behe includes is not irreducibly complex because the antibodies that mark invading cells for destruction might themselves hinder the function of those cells, allowing the system to function (albeit not as well) without the destroyer molecules of the complement system.


http://experimentalmath.info/blog/2009/08/misuse-of-probability-by-creation-scientists-and-others/

Stop spreading your lies badecker.

What do you even mean, "Irreducible complexity can evolve?"

The simple words, "Irreducible complexity" means that there is nothing useful from which an irreducible complexity component can evolve from. Evolution has to have some thing that is useful in mind for it to evolve that way. Nature doesn't simply evolve a clump of useless cells, that sit there for millions of years, continually evolving from less complex useless cells to more complex useless cells, with the idea that someday there will be an eye that will be useful to the then-evolved creature. To suggest this is to suggest great inteligence and planning in nature. This doesn't fit any theory of evolution.

For example. Let's say that you have a human eye. There is simply nothing that would flow in stages from something rather simple to something as complex as the human eye. According to evolution theory, there has to be some use for every little thing that evolves. There is no evolution explantation for a jump from a clump of useless cells to an eye. But that's what they would be... useless cells. Because there is no use for them prior to becoming an eye.

However, all that talk is playing with the idea of evolution. Cause and effect show that things are programmed. Not only life things, but everything. So, whatever you want to call evolution, it was programmed through cause and effect by something that is extremely greater than the whole universe, both in ability and intelligence.

There is no evidence of random chance changes without cause and effect. Such a thing does not even fit our thinking. All science is built on cause and effect. The greater the scientist, the more he uses cause and effect. All the scietists you quoted CAUSED the happenings that they observed. None of them watched these things happen in nature without manipulation of nature in some way.

Cool

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Irreducible_complexity

Like intelligent design, the concept it seeks to support, irreducible complexity has failed to gain any notable acceptance within the scientific community. One science writer called it a "full-blown intellectual surrender strategy" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irreducible_complexity#Methods_by_which_irreducible_complexity_may_evolve

As I said, it's debunked. It's pseudoscience without any grounds.

Radioactive decay is so far true randomness

https://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/177872/true-randomness-via-radioactive-decay

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radioactive_decay

Your pseudoscience cannot refute the facts, sorry. Evolution is a fact and you can't accept it because your religion has infected your brain. I'm truly sorry for you.

Regarding the eye argument which is used by many creationists:

This is the quintessential example of the argument from incredulity. The source making the claim usually quotes Darwin saying that the evolution of the eye seems "absurd in the highest degree". However, Darwin follows that statement with a three-and-a-half-page proposal of intermediate stages through which eyes might have evolved via gradual steps (Darwin 1872).

photosensitive cell
aggregates of pigment cells without a nerve
an optic nerve surrounded by pigment cells and covered by translucent skin
pigment cells forming a small depression
pigment cells forming a deeper depression
the skin over the depression taking a lens shape
muscles allowing the lens to adjust

All of these steps are known to be viable because all exist in animals living today. The increments between these steps are slight and may be broken down into even smaller increments. Natural selection should, under many circumstances, favor the increments. Since eyes do not fossilize well, we do not know that the development of the eye followed exactly that path, but we certainly cannot claim that no path exists.

Evidence for one step in the evolution of the vertebrate eye comes from comparative anatomy and genetics. The vertebrate βγ-crystallin genes, which code for several proteins crucial for the lens, are very similar to the Ciona βγ-crystallin gene. Ciona is an urochordate, a distant relative of vertebrates. Ciona's single βγ-crystallin gene is expressed in its otolith, a pigmented sister cell of the light-sensing ocellus. The origin of the lens appears to be based on co-optation of previously existing elements in a lensless system.

Nilsson and Pelger (1994) calculated that if each step were a 1 percent change, the evolution of the eye would take 1,829 steps, which could happen in 364,000 generations.


http://evolutionfaq.com/faq/eye-too-complex-have-evolved-naturally

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/The_eye_is_too_complex_to_have_evolved



You forgot the part where cause and effect debunks all of evolution, as well as evolution theory. No scientist has any credible explanation for cause and effect being part of evolution, especially if you add universal entropy, and complex universe to the mix.

Cool

I don't know what you mean with cause and effect, explain. I don't know what you mean by complex universe either.
Complexity usually means something is hard to understand. But the fact that one cannot understand how something came to be does not indicate that one may conclude it was designed. On the contrary, lack of understanding indicates that we must not conclude design or anything else.

Irreducible complexity and complex specified information are special cases of the "complexity indicates design" claim; they are also arguments from incredulity.

In the sort of design that we know about, simplicity is a design goal. Complexity arises to some extent through carelessness or necessity, but engineers work to make things as simple as possible. This is very different from what we see in life.

Complexity arises from natural causes: for example, in weather patterns and cave formations.

Complexity is poorly defined.

Regarding Universal entropy: This idea has been put forward by many people to try to prove that evolution is impossible. However, it is based on a flawed understanding of the second law of thermodynamics, and in fact, the theory of evolution does not contradict any known laws of physics.

The second law of thermodynamics simply says that the entropy of a closed system will tend to increase with time. "Entropy" is a technical term with a precise physical definition, but for most purposes it is okay to think of it as equivalent to "disorder". Therefore, the second law of thermodynamics basically says that the universe as a whole gets more disordered and random as time goes on.

However, the most important part of the second law of thermodynamics is that it only applies to a closed system - one that does not have anything going in or out of it. There is nothing about the second law that prevents one part of a closed system from getting more ordered, as long as another part of the system is getting more disordered.

There are many examples from everyday life that prove it is possible to create order! For example, you'd certainly agree that a person is capable of taking a pile of wood and nails and constructing a building out of it. The wood and nails have become more ordered, but in doing the work required to make the building, the person has generated heat which goes into increasing the overall entropy of the universe.

Or, if you prefer an example that doesn't require conscious human intervention, consider what happens when the weather changes and it gets colder outside. Cold air has less entropy than warm air - basically, it is more "ordered" because the molecules aren't moving around as much and have fewer places they can be. So the entropy in your local part of the universe has decreased, but as long as that is accompanied by an increase in entropy somewhere else, the second law of thermodynamics has not been violated.

That's the general picture - nature is capable of generating order out of disorder on a local level without violating the second law of thermodynamics, and that is all that evolution requires.

The idea of evolution is simply that random genetic mutations will occasionally occur that lead an individual organism to have some trait that is different from that of its predecessors. Now, it is true that these mutations, being random, would probably tend to increase the "entropy" of the population as a whole if they occurred in isolation (i.e., in a closed system). That is, most of the mutations will create individual organisms that are less "ordered" (i.e., less complex) and only some will create individual organisms that are more complex, so overall, the complexity goes down.

However, evolution does not take place in a closed system, but rather requires the existence of outside forces - i.e., natural selection. The idea is that there can be some environmental effect that makes organisms with a particular mutation (one that makes them more "complex") more likely to survive and pass their genes on to the next generation. Thus, as generations go by, the gene pool of the species can get more and more complex, but notice that this can only occur if the gene pool interacts with the outside world. It is through the course of that interaction that some other form of entropy (or disorder) will be generated that increases the entropy of the universe as a whole.

If the above is too esoteric, consider a simple analogy: a poker tournament. In poker, good hands are less likely to be dealt than bad ones - for example, the odds of getting three of a kind are much less than the odds of getting two of a kind. So in a poker tournament, most people will be dealt bad hands and only a few will be lucky enough to be dealt good hands. But it is the people with good hands who will be more likely to win and "survive" to the next round. So the "outside forces" (in this case, the rules of poker) acting on a random distribution (all the poker hands that were dealt) will tend to select out the best, least likely ones.

Do you even do some research before posting a bunch of crap? Just google it my friend.

You might Google "cause and effect" for many explanations. Possibly the best explanation is Newton's 3rd Law.

Whatever things people include in the term "evolution," if evolution happens by cause and effect, then it might be real. If it doesn't, then it isn't.

The general understanding of "evolution" suggests randomness, of which there is none. Thus, evolution by the general understanding is wrong.

All your explanations are people playing with science fiction.

Cool

Newton 3rd law: If an object A exerts a force on object B, then object B must exert a force of equal magnitude and opposite direction back on object A. I fail to see how that disproves evolution.

Your problem is that you transposed the idea of Newton's 3rd Law incorrectly. You gotta say it right. It shows how cause and effect work.

Cool
hero member
Activity: 1624
Merit: 645
June 03, 2017, 06:46:51 PM
All of your claims have been debunked badecker.

Irreducible complexity can evolve. It is defined as a system that loses its function if any one part is removed, so it only indicates that the system did not evolve by the addition of single parts with no change in function. That still leaves several evolutionary mechanisms:

deletion of parts
addition of multiple parts; for example, duplication of much or all of the system (Pennisi 2001)
change of function
addition of a second function to a part (Aharoni et al. 2004)
gradual modification of parts

All of these mechanisms have been observed in genetic mutations. In particular, deletions and gene duplications are fairly common (Dujon et al. 2004; Hooper and Berg 2003; Lynch and Conery 2000), and together they make irreducible complexity not only possible but expected. In fact, it was predicted by Nobel-prize-winning geneticist Hermann Muller almost a century ago (Muller 1918, 463-464). Muller referred to it as interlocking complexity (Muller 1939).

Evolutionary origins of some irreducibly complex systems have been described in some detail. For example, the evolution of the Krebs citric acid cycle has been well studied (Meléndez-Hevia et al. 1996), and the evolution of an "irreducible" system of a hormone-receptor system has been elucidated (Bridgham et al. 2006). Irreducibility is no obstacle to their formation.

Even if irreducible complexity did prohibit Darwinian evolution, the conclusion of design does not follow. Other processes might have produced it. Irreducible complexity is an example of a failed argument from incredulity.

Irreducible complexity is poorly defined. It is defined in terms of parts, but it is far from obvious what a "part" is. Logically, the parts should be individual atoms, because they are the level of organization that does not get subdivided further in biochemistry, and they are the smallest level that biochemists consider in their analysis. Behe, however, considered sets of molecules to be individual parts, and he gave no indication of how he made his determinations.

Systems that have been considered irreducibly complex might not be. For example:
The mousetrap that Behe used as an example of irreducible complexity can be simplified by bending the holding arm slightly and removing the latch.
The bacterial flagellum is not irreducibly complex because it can lose many parts and still function, either as a simpler flagellum or a secretion system. Many proteins of the eukaryotic flagellum (also called a cilium or undulipodium) are known to be dispensable, because functional swimming flagella that lack these proteins are known to exist.
In spite of the complexity of Behe's protein transport example, there are other proteins for which no transport is necessary (see Ussery 1999 for references).
The immune system example that Behe includes is not irreducibly complex because the antibodies that mark invading cells for destruction might themselves hinder the function of those cells, allowing the system to function (albeit not as well) without the destroyer molecules of the complement system.


http://experimentalmath.info/blog/2009/08/misuse-of-probability-by-creation-scientists-and-others/

Stop spreading your lies badecker.

What do you even mean, "Irreducible complexity can evolve?"

The simple words, "Irreducible complexity" means that there is nothing useful from which an irreducible complexity component can evolve from. Evolution has to have some thing that is useful in mind for it to evolve that way. Nature doesn't simply evolve a clump of useless cells, that sit there for millions of years, continually evolving from less complex useless cells to more complex useless cells, with the idea that someday there will be an eye that will be useful to the then-evolved creature. To suggest this is to suggest great inteligence and planning in nature. This doesn't fit any theory of evolution.

For example. Let's say that you have a human eye. There is simply nothing that would flow in stages from something rather simple to something as complex as the human eye. According to evolution theory, there has to be some use for every little thing that evolves. There is no evolution explantation for a jump from a clump of useless cells to an eye. But that's what they would be... useless cells. Because there is no use for them prior to becoming an eye.

However, all that talk is playing with the idea of evolution. Cause and effect show that things are programmed. Not only life things, but everything. So, whatever you want to call evolution, it was programmed through cause and effect by something that is extremely greater than the whole universe, both in ability and intelligence.

There is no evidence of random chance changes without cause and effect. Such a thing does not even fit our thinking. All science is built on cause and effect. The greater the scientist, the more he uses cause and effect. All the scietists you quoted CAUSED the happenings that they observed. None of them watched these things happen in nature without manipulation of nature in some way.

Cool

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Irreducible_complexity

Like intelligent design, the concept it seeks to support, irreducible complexity has failed to gain any notable acceptance within the scientific community. One science writer called it a "full-blown intellectual surrender strategy" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irreducible_complexity#Methods_by_which_irreducible_complexity_may_evolve

As I said, it's debunked. It's pseudoscience without any grounds.

Radioactive decay is so far true randomness

https://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/177872/true-randomness-via-radioactive-decay

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radioactive_decay

Your pseudoscience cannot refute the facts, sorry. Evolution is a fact and you can't accept it because your religion has infected your brain. I'm truly sorry for you.

Regarding the eye argument which is used by many creationists:

This is the quintessential example of the argument from incredulity. The source making the claim usually quotes Darwin saying that the evolution of the eye seems "absurd in the highest degree". However, Darwin follows that statement with a three-and-a-half-page proposal of intermediate stages through which eyes might have evolved via gradual steps (Darwin 1872).

photosensitive cell
aggregates of pigment cells without a nerve
an optic nerve surrounded by pigment cells and covered by translucent skin
pigment cells forming a small depression
pigment cells forming a deeper depression
the skin over the depression taking a lens shape
muscles allowing the lens to adjust

All of these steps are known to be viable because all exist in animals living today. The increments between these steps are slight and may be broken down into even smaller increments. Natural selection should, under many circumstances, favor the increments. Since eyes do not fossilize well, we do not know that the development of the eye followed exactly that path, but we certainly cannot claim that no path exists.

Evidence for one step in the evolution of the vertebrate eye comes from comparative anatomy and genetics. The vertebrate βγ-crystallin genes, which code for several proteins crucial for the lens, are very similar to the Ciona βγ-crystallin gene. Ciona is an urochordate, a distant relative of vertebrates. Ciona's single βγ-crystallin gene is expressed in its otolith, a pigmented sister cell of the light-sensing ocellus. The origin of the lens appears to be based on co-optation of previously existing elements in a lensless system.

Nilsson and Pelger (1994) calculated that if each step were a 1 percent change, the evolution of the eye would take 1,829 steps, which could happen in 364,000 generations.


http://evolutionfaq.com/faq/eye-too-complex-have-evolved-naturally

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/The_eye_is_too_complex_to_have_evolved



You forgot the part where cause and effect debunks all of evolution, as well as evolution theory. No scientist has any credible explanation for cause and effect being part of evolution, especially if you add universal entropy, and complex universe to the mix.

Cool

I don't know what you mean with cause and effect, explain. I don't know what you mean by complex universe either.
Complexity usually means something is hard to understand. But the fact that one cannot understand how something came to be does not indicate that one may conclude it was designed. On the contrary, lack of understanding indicates that we must not conclude design or anything else.

Irreducible complexity and complex specified information are special cases of the "complexity indicates design" claim; they are also arguments from incredulity.

In the sort of design that we know about, simplicity is a design goal. Complexity arises to some extent through carelessness or necessity, but engineers work to make things as simple as possible. This is very different from what we see in life.

Complexity arises from natural causes: for example, in weather patterns and cave formations.

Complexity is poorly defined.

Regarding Universal entropy: This idea has been put forward by many people to try to prove that evolution is impossible. However, it is based on a flawed understanding of the second law of thermodynamics, and in fact, the theory of evolution does not contradict any known laws of physics.

The second law of thermodynamics simply says that the entropy of a closed system will tend to increase with time. "Entropy" is a technical term with a precise physical definition, but for most purposes it is okay to think of it as equivalent to "disorder". Therefore, the second law of thermodynamics basically says that the universe as a whole gets more disordered and random as time goes on.

However, the most important part of the second law of thermodynamics is that it only applies to a closed system - one that does not have anything going in or out of it. There is nothing about the second law that prevents one part of a closed system from getting more ordered, as long as another part of the system is getting more disordered.

There are many examples from everyday life that prove it is possible to create order! For example, you'd certainly agree that a person is capable of taking a pile of wood and nails and constructing a building out of it. The wood and nails have become more ordered, but in doing the work required to make the building, the person has generated heat which goes into increasing the overall entropy of the universe.

Or, if you prefer an example that doesn't require conscious human intervention, consider what happens when the weather changes and it gets colder outside. Cold air has less entropy than warm air - basically, it is more "ordered" because the molecules aren't moving around as much and have fewer places they can be. So the entropy in your local part of the universe has decreased, but as long as that is accompanied by an increase in entropy somewhere else, the second law of thermodynamics has not been violated.

That's the general picture - nature is capable of generating order out of disorder on a local level without violating the second law of thermodynamics, and that is all that evolution requires.

The idea of evolution is simply that random genetic mutations will occasionally occur that lead an individual organism to have some trait that is different from that of its predecessors. Now, it is true that these mutations, being random, would probably tend to increase the "entropy" of the population as a whole if they occurred in isolation (i.e., in a closed system). That is, most of the mutations will create individual organisms that are less "ordered" (i.e., less complex) and only some will create individual organisms that are more complex, so overall, the complexity goes down.

However, evolution does not take place in a closed system, but rather requires the existence of outside forces - i.e., natural selection. The idea is that there can be some environmental effect that makes organisms with a particular mutation (one that makes them more "complex") more likely to survive and pass their genes on to the next generation. Thus, as generations go by, the gene pool of the species can get more and more complex, but notice that this can only occur if the gene pool interacts with the outside world. It is through the course of that interaction that some other form of entropy (or disorder) will be generated that increases the entropy of the universe as a whole.

If the above is too esoteric, consider a simple analogy: a poker tournament. In poker, good hands are less likely to be dealt than bad ones - for example, the odds of getting three of a kind are much less than the odds of getting two of a kind. So in a poker tournament, most people will be dealt bad hands and only a few will be lucky enough to be dealt good hands. But it is the people with good hands who will be more likely to win and "survive" to the next round. So the "outside forces" (in this case, the rules of poker) acting on a random distribution (all the poker hands that were dealt) will tend to select out the best, least likely ones.

Do you even do some research before posting a bunch of crap? Just google it my friend.

You might Google "cause and effect" for many explanations. Possibly the best explanation is Newton's 3rd Law.

Whatever things people include in the term "evolution," if evolution happens by cause and effect, then it might be real. If it doesn't, then it isn't.

The general understanding of "evolution" suggests randomness, of which there is none. Thus, evolution by the general understanding is wrong.

All your explanations are people playing with science fiction.

Cool

Newton 3rd law: If an object A exerts a force on object B, then object B must exert a force of equal magnitude and opposite direction back on object A. I fail to see how that disproves evolution.
legendary
Activity: 4046
Merit: 1389
June 03, 2017, 06:26:09 PM
All of your claims have been debunked badecker.

Irreducible complexity can evolve. It is defined as a system that loses its function if any one part is removed, so it only indicates that the system did not evolve by the addition of single parts with no change in function. That still leaves several evolutionary mechanisms:

deletion of parts
addition of multiple parts; for example, duplication of much or all of the system (Pennisi 2001)
change of function
addition of a second function to a part (Aharoni et al. 2004)
gradual modification of parts

All of these mechanisms have been observed in genetic mutations. In particular, deletions and gene duplications are fairly common (Dujon et al. 2004; Hooper and Berg 2003; Lynch and Conery 2000), and together they make irreducible complexity not only possible but expected. In fact, it was predicted by Nobel-prize-winning geneticist Hermann Muller almost a century ago (Muller 1918, 463-464). Muller referred to it as interlocking complexity (Muller 1939).

Evolutionary origins of some irreducibly complex systems have been described in some detail. For example, the evolution of the Krebs citric acid cycle has been well studied (Meléndez-Hevia et al. 1996), and the evolution of an "irreducible" system of a hormone-receptor system has been elucidated (Bridgham et al. 2006). Irreducibility is no obstacle to their formation.

Even if irreducible complexity did prohibit Darwinian evolution, the conclusion of design does not follow. Other processes might have produced it. Irreducible complexity is an example of a failed argument from incredulity.

Irreducible complexity is poorly defined. It is defined in terms of parts, but it is far from obvious what a "part" is. Logically, the parts should be individual atoms, because they are the level of organization that does not get subdivided further in biochemistry, and they are the smallest level that biochemists consider in their analysis. Behe, however, considered sets of molecules to be individual parts, and he gave no indication of how he made his determinations.

Systems that have been considered irreducibly complex might not be. For example:
The mousetrap that Behe used as an example of irreducible complexity can be simplified by bending the holding arm slightly and removing the latch.
The bacterial flagellum is not irreducibly complex because it can lose many parts and still function, either as a simpler flagellum or a secretion system. Many proteins of the eukaryotic flagellum (also called a cilium or undulipodium) are known to be dispensable, because functional swimming flagella that lack these proteins are known to exist.
In spite of the complexity of Behe's protein transport example, there are other proteins for which no transport is necessary (see Ussery 1999 for references).
The immune system example that Behe includes is not irreducibly complex because the antibodies that mark invading cells for destruction might themselves hinder the function of those cells, allowing the system to function (albeit not as well) without the destroyer molecules of the complement system.


http://experimentalmath.info/blog/2009/08/misuse-of-probability-by-creation-scientists-and-others/

Stop spreading your lies badecker.

What do you even mean, "Irreducible complexity can evolve?"

The simple words, "Irreducible complexity" means that there is nothing useful from which an irreducible complexity component can evolve from. Evolution has to have some thing that is useful in mind for it to evolve that way. Nature doesn't simply evolve a clump of useless cells, that sit there for millions of years, continually evolving from less complex useless cells to more complex useless cells, with the idea that someday there will be an eye that will be useful to the then-evolved creature. To suggest this is to suggest great inteligence and planning in nature. This doesn't fit any theory of evolution.

For example. Let's say that you have a human eye. There is simply nothing that would flow in stages from something rather simple to something as complex as the human eye. According to evolution theory, there has to be some use for every little thing that evolves. There is no evolution explantation for a jump from a clump of useless cells to an eye. But that's what they would be... useless cells. Because there is no use for them prior to becoming an eye.

However, all that talk is playing with the idea of evolution. Cause and effect show that things are programmed. Not only life things, but everything. So, whatever you want to call evolution, it was programmed through cause and effect by something that is extremely greater than the whole universe, both in ability and intelligence.

There is no evidence of random chance changes without cause and effect. Such a thing does not even fit our thinking. All science is built on cause and effect. The greater the scientist, the more he uses cause and effect. All the scietists you quoted CAUSED the happenings that they observed. None of them watched these things happen in nature without manipulation of nature in some way.

Cool

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Irreducible_complexity

Like intelligent design, the concept it seeks to support, irreducible complexity has failed to gain any notable acceptance within the scientific community. One science writer called it a "full-blown intellectual surrender strategy" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irreducible_complexity#Methods_by_which_irreducible_complexity_may_evolve

As I said, it's debunked. It's pseudoscience without any grounds.

Radioactive decay is so far true randomness

https://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/177872/true-randomness-via-radioactive-decay

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radioactive_decay

Your pseudoscience cannot refute the facts, sorry. Evolution is a fact and you can't accept it because your religion has infected your brain. I'm truly sorry for you.

Regarding the eye argument which is used by many creationists:

This is the quintessential example of the argument from incredulity. The source making the claim usually quotes Darwin saying that the evolution of the eye seems "absurd in the highest degree". However, Darwin follows that statement with a three-and-a-half-page proposal of intermediate stages through which eyes might have evolved via gradual steps (Darwin 1872).

photosensitive cell
aggregates of pigment cells without a nerve
an optic nerve surrounded by pigment cells and covered by translucent skin
pigment cells forming a small depression
pigment cells forming a deeper depression
the skin over the depression taking a lens shape
muscles allowing the lens to adjust

All of these steps are known to be viable because all exist in animals living today. The increments between these steps are slight and may be broken down into even smaller increments. Natural selection should, under many circumstances, favor the increments. Since eyes do not fossilize well, we do not know that the development of the eye followed exactly that path, but we certainly cannot claim that no path exists.

Evidence for one step in the evolution of the vertebrate eye comes from comparative anatomy and genetics. The vertebrate βγ-crystallin genes, which code for several proteins crucial for the lens, are very similar to the Ciona βγ-crystallin gene. Ciona is an urochordate, a distant relative of vertebrates. Ciona's single βγ-crystallin gene is expressed in its otolith, a pigmented sister cell of the light-sensing ocellus. The origin of the lens appears to be based on co-optation of previously existing elements in a lensless system.

Nilsson and Pelger (1994) calculated that if each step were a 1 percent change, the evolution of the eye would take 1,829 steps, which could happen in 364,000 generations.


http://evolutionfaq.com/faq/eye-too-complex-have-evolved-naturally

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/The_eye_is_too_complex_to_have_evolved



You forgot the part where cause and effect debunks all of evolution, as well as evolution theory. No scientist has any credible explanation for cause and effect being part of evolution, especially if you add universal entropy, and complex universe to the mix.

Cool

I don't know what you mean with cause and effect, explain. I don't know what you mean by complex universe either.
Complexity usually means something is hard to understand. But the fact that one cannot understand how something came to be does not indicate that one may conclude it was designed. On the contrary, lack of understanding indicates that we must not conclude design or anything else.

Irreducible complexity and complex specified information are special cases of the "complexity indicates design" claim; they are also arguments from incredulity.

In the sort of design that we know about, simplicity is a design goal. Complexity arises to some extent through carelessness or necessity, but engineers work to make things as simple as possible. This is very different from what we see in life.

Complexity arises from natural causes: for example, in weather patterns and cave formations.

Complexity is poorly defined.

Regarding Universal entropy: This idea has been put forward by many people to try to prove that evolution is impossible. However, it is based on a flawed understanding of the second law of thermodynamics, and in fact, the theory of evolution does not contradict any known laws of physics.

The second law of thermodynamics simply says that the entropy of a closed system will tend to increase with time. "Entropy" is a technical term with a precise physical definition, but for most purposes it is okay to think of it as equivalent to "disorder". Therefore, the second law of thermodynamics basically says that the universe as a whole gets more disordered and random as time goes on.

However, the most important part of the second law of thermodynamics is that it only applies to a closed system - one that does not have anything going in or out of it. There is nothing about the second law that prevents one part of a closed system from getting more ordered, as long as another part of the system is getting more disordered.

There are many examples from everyday life that prove it is possible to create order! For example, you'd certainly agree that a person is capable of taking a pile of wood and nails and constructing a building out of it. The wood and nails have become more ordered, but in doing the work required to make the building, the person has generated heat which goes into increasing the overall entropy of the universe.

Or, if you prefer an example that doesn't require conscious human intervention, consider what happens when the weather changes and it gets colder outside. Cold air has less entropy than warm air - basically, it is more "ordered" because the molecules aren't moving around as much and have fewer places they can be. So the entropy in your local part of the universe has decreased, but as long as that is accompanied by an increase in entropy somewhere else, the second law of thermodynamics has not been violated.

That's the general picture - nature is capable of generating order out of disorder on a local level without violating the second law of thermodynamics, and that is all that evolution requires.

The idea of evolution is simply that random genetic mutations will occasionally occur that lead an individual organism to have some trait that is different from that of its predecessors. Now, it is true that these mutations, being random, would probably tend to increase the "entropy" of the population as a whole if they occurred in isolation (i.e., in a closed system). That is, most of the mutations will create individual organisms that are less "ordered" (i.e., less complex) and only some will create individual organisms that are more complex, so overall, the complexity goes down.

However, evolution does not take place in a closed system, but rather requires the existence of outside forces - i.e., natural selection. The idea is that there can be some environmental effect that makes organisms with a particular mutation (one that makes them more "complex") more likely to survive and pass their genes on to the next generation. Thus, as generations go by, the gene pool of the species can get more and more complex, but notice that this can only occur if the gene pool interacts with the outside world. It is through the course of that interaction that some other form of entropy (or disorder) will be generated that increases the entropy of the universe as a whole.

If the above is too esoteric, consider a simple analogy: a poker tournament. In poker, good hands are less likely to be dealt than bad ones - for example, the odds of getting three of a kind are much less than the odds of getting two of a kind. So in a poker tournament, most people will be dealt bad hands and only a few will be lucky enough to be dealt good hands. But it is the people with good hands who will be more likely to win and "survive" to the next round. So the "outside forces" (in this case, the rules of poker) acting on a random distribution (all the poker hands that were dealt) will tend to select out the best, least likely ones.

Do you even do some research before posting a bunch of crap? Just google it my friend.

You might Google "cause and effect" for many explanations. Possibly the best explanation is Newton's 3rd Law.

Whatever things people include in the term "evolution," if evolution happens by cause and effect, then it might be real. If it doesn't, then it isn't.

The general understanding of "evolution" suggests randomness, of which there is none. Thus, evolution by the general understanding is wrong.

All your explanations are people playing with science fiction.

Cool
legendary
Activity: 1330
Merit: 1003
June 03, 2017, 05:57:49 PM
"Evolution is a hoax" thread got to 14 pages.....There are trolls in our midst
hero member
Activity: 1624
Merit: 645
June 03, 2017, 05:27:54 PM
All of your claims have been debunked badecker.

Irreducible complexity can evolve. It is defined as a system that loses its function if any one part is removed, so it only indicates that the system did not evolve by the addition of single parts with no change in function. That still leaves several evolutionary mechanisms:

deletion of parts
addition of multiple parts; for example, duplication of much or all of the system (Pennisi 2001)
change of function
addition of a second function to a part (Aharoni et al. 2004)
gradual modification of parts

All of these mechanisms have been observed in genetic mutations. In particular, deletions and gene duplications are fairly common (Dujon et al. 2004; Hooper and Berg 2003; Lynch and Conery 2000), and together they make irreducible complexity not only possible but expected. In fact, it was predicted by Nobel-prize-winning geneticist Hermann Muller almost a century ago (Muller 1918, 463-464). Muller referred to it as interlocking complexity (Muller 1939).

Evolutionary origins of some irreducibly complex systems have been described in some detail. For example, the evolution of the Krebs citric acid cycle has been well studied (Meléndez-Hevia et al. 1996), and the evolution of an "irreducible" system of a hormone-receptor system has been elucidated (Bridgham et al. 2006). Irreducibility is no obstacle to their formation.

Even if irreducible complexity did prohibit Darwinian evolution, the conclusion of design does not follow. Other processes might have produced it. Irreducible complexity is an example of a failed argument from incredulity.

Irreducible complexity is poorly defined. It is defined in terms of parts, but it is far from obvious what a "part" is. Logically, the parts should be individual atoms, because they are the level of organization that does not get subdivided further in biochemistry, and they are the smallest level that biochemists consider in their analysis. Behe, however, considered sets of molecules to be individual parts, and he gave no indication of how he made his determinations.

Systems that have been considered irreducibly complex might not be. For example:
The mousetrap that Behe used as an example of irreducible complexity can be simplified by bending the holding arm slightly and removing the latch.
The bacterial flagellum is not irreducibly complex because it can lose many parts and still function, either as a simpler flagellum or a secretion system. Many proteins of the eukaryotic flagellum (also called a cilium or undulipodium) are known to be dispensable, because functional swimming flagella that lack these proteins are known to exist.
In spite of the complexity of Behe's protein transport example, there are other proteins for which no transport is necessary (see Ussery 1999 for references).
The immune system example that Behe includes is not irreducibly complex because the antibodies that mark invading cells for destruction might themselves hinder the function of those cells, allowing the system to function (albeit not as well) without the destroyer molecules of the complement system.


http://experimentalmath.info/blog/2009/08/misuse-of-probability-by-creation-scientists-and-others/

Stop spreading your lies badecker.

What do you even mean, "Irreducible complexity can evolve?"

The simple words, "Irreducible complexity" means that there is nothing useful from which an irreducible complexity component can evolve from. Evolution has to have some thing that is useful in mind for it to evolve that way. Nature doesn't simply evolve a clump of useless cells, that sit there for millions of years, continually evolving from less complex useless cells to more complex useless cells, with the idea that someday there will be an eye that will be useful to the then-evolved creature. To suggest this is to suggest great inteligence and planning in nature. This doesn't fit any theory of evolution.

For example. Let's say that you have a human eye. There is simply nothing that would flow in stages from something rather simple to something as complex as the human eye. According to evolution theory, there has to be some use for every little thing that evolves. There is no evolution explantation for a jump from a clump of useless cells to an eye. But that's what they would be... useless cells. Because there is no use for them prior to becoming an eye.

However, all that talk is playing with the idea of evolution. Cause and effect show that things are programmed. Not only life things, but everything. So, whatever you want to call evolution, it was programmed through cause and effect by something that is extremely greater than the whole universe, both in ability and intelligence.

There is no evidence of random chance changes without cause and effect. Such a thing does not even fit our thinking. All science is built on cause and effect. The greater the scientist, the more he uses cause and effect. All the scietists you quoted CAUSED the happenings that they observed. None of them watched these things happen in nature without manipulation of nature in some way.

Cool

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Irreducible_complexity

Like intelligent design, the concept it seeks to support, irreducible complexity has failed to gain any notable acceptance within the scientific community. One science writer called it a "full-blown intellectual surrender strategy" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irreducible_complexity#Methods_by_which_irreducible_complexity_may_evolve

As I said, it's debunked. It's pseudoscience without any grounds.

Radioactive decay is so far true randomness

https://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/177872/true-randomness-via-radioactive-decay

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radioactive_decay

Your pseudoscience cannot refute the facts, sorry. Evolution is a fact and you can't accept it because your religion has infected your brain. I'm truly sorry for you.

Regarding the eye argument which is used by many creationists:

This is the quintessential example of the argument from incredulity. The source making the claim usually quotes Darwin saying that the evolution of the eye seems "absurd in the highest degree". However, Darwin follows that statement with a three-and-a-half-page proposal of intermediate stages through which eyes might have evolved via gradual steps (Darwin 1872).

photosensitive cell
aggregates of pigment cells without a nerve
an optic nerve surrounded by pigment cells and covered by translucent skin
pigment cells forming a small depression
pigment cells forming a deeper depression
the skin over the depression taking a lens shape
muscles allowing the lens to adjust

All of these steps are known to be viable because all exist in animals living today. The increments between these steps are slight and may be broken down into even smaller increments. Natural selection should, under many circumstances, favor the increments. Since eyes do not fossilize well, we do not know that the development of the eye followed exactly that path, but we certainly cannot claim that no path exists.

Evidence for one step in the evolution of the vertebrate eye comes from comparative anatomy and genetics. The vertebrate βγ-crystallin genes, which code for several proteins crucial for the lens, are very similar to the Ciona βγ-crystallin gene. Ciona is an urochordate, a distant relative of vertebrates. Ciona's single βγ-crystallin gene is expressed in its otolith, a pigmented sister cell of the light-sensing ocellus. The origin of the lens appears to be based on co-optation of previously existing elements in a lensless system.

Nilsson and Pelger (1994) calculated that if each step were a 1 percent change, the evolution of the eye would take 1,829 steps, which could happen in 364,000 generations.


http://evolutionfaq.com/faq/eye-too-complex-have-evolved-naturally

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/The_eye_is_too_complex_to_have_evolved



You forgot the part where cause and effect debunks all of evolution, as well as evolution theory. No scientist has any credible explanation for cause and effect being part of evolution, especially if you add universal entropy, and complex universe to the mix.

Cool

I don't know what you mean with cause and effect, explain. I don't know what you mean by complex universe either.
Complexity usually means something is hard to understand. But the fact that one cannot understand how something came to be does not indicate that one may conclude it was designed. On the contrary, lack of understanding indicates that we must not conclude design or anything else.

Irreducible complexity and complex specified information are special cases of the "complexity indicates design" claim; they are also arguments from incredulity.

In the sort of design that we know about, simplicity is a design goal. Complexity arises to some extent through carelessness or necessity, but engineers work to make things as simple as possible. This is very different from what we see in life.

Complexity arises from natural causes: for example, in weather patterns and cave formations.

Complexity is poorly defined.

Regarding Universal entropy: This idea has been put forward by many people to try to prove that evolution is impossible. However, it is based on a flawed understanding of the second law of thermodynamics, and in fact, the theory of evolution does not contradict any known laws of physics.

The second law of thermodynamics simply says that the entropy of a closed system will tend to increase with time. "Entropy" is a technical term with a precise physical definition, but for most purposes it is okay to think of it as equivalent to "disorder". Therefore, the second law of thermodynamics basically says that the universe as a whole gets more disordered and random as time goes on.

However, the most important part of the second law of thermodynamics is that it only applies to a closed system - one that does not have anything going in or out of it. There is nothing about the second law that prevents one part of a closed system from getting more ordered, as long as another part of the system is getting more disordered.

There are many examples from everyday life that prove it is possible to create order! For example, you'd certainly agree that a person is capable of taking a pile of wood and nails and constructing a building out of it. The wood and nails have become more ordered, but in doing the work required to make the building, the person has generated heat which goes into increasing the overall entropy of the universe.

Or, if you prefer an example that doesn't require conscious human intervention, consider what happens when the weather changes and it gets colder outside. Cold air has less entropy than warm air - basically, it is more "ordered" because the molecules aren't moving around as much and have fewer places they can be. So the entropy in your local part of the universe has decreased, but as long as that is accompanied by an increase in entropy somewhere else, the second law of thermodynamics has not been violated.

That's the general picture - nature is capable of generating order out of disorder on a local level without violating the second law of thermodynamics, and that is all that evolution requires.

The idea of evolution is simply that random genetic mutations will occasionally occur that lead an individual organism to have some trait that is different from that of its predecessors. Now, it is true that these mutations, being random, would probably tend to increase the "entropy" of the population as a whole if they occurred in isolation (i.e., in a closed system). That is, most of the mutations will create individual organisms that are less "ordered" (i.e., less complex) and only some will create individual organisms that are more complex, so overall, the complexity goes down.

However, evolution does not take place in a closed system, but rather requires the existence of outside forces - i.e., natural selection. The idea is that there can be some environmental effect that makes organisms with a particular mutation (one that makes them more "complex") more likely to survive and pass their genes on to the next generation. Thus, as generations go by, the gene pool of the species can get more and more complex, but notice that this can only occur if the gene pool interacts with the outside world. It is through the course of that interaction that some other form of entropy (or disorder) will be generated that increases the entropy of the universe as a whole.

If the above is too esoteric, consider a simple analogy: a poker tournament. In poker, good hands are less likely to be dealt than bad ones - for example, the odds of getting three of a kind are much less than the odds of getting two of a kind. So in a poker tournament, most people will be dealt bad hands and only a few will be lucky enough to be dealt good hands. But it is the people with good hands who will be more likely to win and "survive" to the next round. So the "outside forces" (in this case, the rules of poker) acting on a random distribution (all the poker hands that were dealt) will tend to select out the best, least likely ones.

Do you even do some research before posting a bunch of crap? Just google it my friend.
legendary
Activity: 4046
Merit: 1389
June 03, 2017, 04:44:04 PM
All of your claims have been debunked badecker.

Irreducible complexity can evolve. It is defined as a system that loses its function if any one part is removed, so it only indicates that the system did not evolve by the addition of single parts with no change in function. That still leaves several evolutionary mechanisms:

deletion of parts
addition of multiple parts; for example, duplication of much or all of the system (Pennisi 2001)
change of function
addition of a second function to a part (Aharoni et al. 2004)
gradual modification of parts

All of these mechanisms have been observed in genetic mutations. In particular, deletions and gene duplications are fairly common (Dujon et al. 2004; Hooper and Berg 2003; Lynch and Conery 2000), and together they make irreducible complexity not only possible but expected. In fact, it was predicted by Nobel-prize-winning geneticist Hermann Muller almost a century ago (Muller 1918, 463-464). Muller referred to it as interlocking complexity (Muller 1939).

Evolutionary origins of some irreducibly complex systems have been described in some detail. For example, the evolution of the Krebs citric acid cycle has been well studied (Meléndez-Hevia et al. 1996), and the evolution of an "irreducible" system of a hormone-receptor system has been elucidated (Bridgham et al. 2006). Irreducibility is no obstacle to their formation.

Even if irreducible complexity did prohibit Darwinian evolution, the conclusion of design does not follow. Other processes might have produced it. Irreducible complexity is an example of a failed argument from incredulity.

Irreducible complexity is poorly defined. It is defined in terms of parts, but it is far from obvious what a "part" is. Logically, the parts should be individual atoms, because they are the level of organization that does not get subdivided further in biochemistry, and they are the smallest level that biochemists consider in their analysis. Behe, however, considered sets of molecules to be individual parts, and he gave no indication of how he made his determinations.

Systems that have been considered irreducibly complex might not be. For example:
The mousetrap that Behe used as an example of irreducible complexity can be simplified by bending the holding arm slightly and removing the latch.
The bacterial flagellum is not irreducibly complex because it can lose many parts and still function, either as a simpler flagellum or a secretion system. Many proteins of the eukaryotic flagellum (also called a cilium or undulipodium) are known to be dispensable, because functional swimming flagella that lack these proteins are known to exist.
In spite of the complexity of Behe's protein transport example, there are other proteins for which no transport is necessary (see Ussery 1999 for references).
The immune system example that Behe includes is not irreducibly complex because the antibodies that mark invading cells for destruction might themselves hinder the function of those cells, allowing the system to function (albeit not as well) without the destroyer molecules of the complement system.


http://experimentalmath.info/blog/2009/08/misuse-of-probability-by-creation-scientists-and-others/

Stop spreading your lies badecker.

What do you even mean, "Irreducible complexity can evolve?"

The simple words, "Irreducible complexity" means that there is nothing useful from which an irreducible complexity component can evolve from. Evolution has to have some thing that is useful in mind for it to evolve that way. Nature doesn't simply evolve a clump of useless cells, that sit there for millions of years, continually evolving from less complex useless cells to more complex useless cells, with the idea that someday there will be an eye that will be useful to the then-evolved creature. To suggest this is to suggest great inteligence and planning in nature. This doesn't fit any theory of evolution.

For example. Let's say that you have a human eye. There is simply nothing that would flow in stages from something rather simple to something as complex as the human eye. According to evolution theory, there has to be some use for every little thing that evolves. There is no evolution explantation for a jump from a clump of useless cells to an eye. But that's what they would be... useless cells. Because there is no use for them prior to becoming an eye.

However, all that talk is playing with the idea of evolution. Cause and effect show that things are programmed. Not only life things, but everything. So, whatever you want to call evolution, it was programmed through cause and effect by something that is extremely greater than the whole universe, both in ability and intelligence.

There is no evidence of random chance changes without cause and effect. Such a thing does not even fit our thinking. All science is built on cause and effect. The greater the scientist, the more he uses cause and effect. All the scietists you quoted CAUSED the happenings that they observed. None of them watched these things happen in nature without manipulation of nature in some way.

Cool

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Irreducible_complexity

Like intelligent design, the concept it seeks to support, irreducible complexity has failed to gain any notable acceptance within the scientific community. One science writer called it a "full-blown intellectual surrender strategy" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irreducible_complexity#Methods_by_which_irreducible_complexity_may_evolve

As I said, it's debunked. It's pseudoscience without any grounds.

Radioactive decay is so far true randomness

https://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/177872/true-randomness-via-radioactive-decay

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radioactive_decay

Your pseudoscience cannot refute the facts, sorry. Evolution is a fact and you can't accept it because your religion has infected your brain. I'm truly sorry for you.

Regarding the eye argument which is used by many creationists:

This is the quintessential example of the argument from incredulity. The source making the claim usually quotes Darwin saying that the evolution of the eye seems "absurd in the highest degree". However, Darwin follows that statement with a three-and-a-half-page proposal of intermediate stages through which eyes might have evolved via gradual steps (Darwin 1872).

photosensitive cell
aggregates of pigment cells without a nerve
an optic nerve surrounded by pigment cells and covered by translucent skin
pigment cells forming a small depression
pigment cells forming a deeper depression
the skin over the depression taking a lens shape
muscles allowing the lens to adjust

All of these steps are known to be viable because all exist in animals living today. The increments between these steps are slight and may be broken down into even smaller increments. Natural selection should, under many circumstances, favor the increments. Since eyes do not fossilize well, we do not know that the development of the eye followed exactly that path, but we certainly cannot claim that no path exists.

Evidence for one step in the evolution of the vertebrate eye comes from comparative anatomy and genetics. The vertebrate βγ-crystallin genes, which code for several proteins crucial for the lens, are very similar to the Ciona βγ-crystallin gene. Ciona is an urochordate, a distant relative of vertebrates. Ciona's single βγ-crystallin gene is expressed in its otolith, a pigmented sister cell of the light-sensing ocellus. The origin of the lens appears to be based on co-optation of previously existing elements in a lensless system.

Nilsson and Pelger (1994) calculated that if each step were a 1 percent change, the evolution of the eye would take 1,829 steps, which could happen in 364,000 generations.


http://evolutionfaq.com/faq/eye-too-complex-have-evolved-naturally

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/The_eye_is_too_complex_to_have_evolved



You forgot the part where cause and effect debunks all of evolution, as well as evolution theory. No scientist has any credible explanation for cause and effect being part of evolution, especially if you add universal entropy, and complex universe to the mix.

Cool
hero member
Activity: 1624
Merit: 645
June 03, 2017, 04:27:04 PM
All of your claims have been debunked badecker.

Irreducible complexity can evolve. It is defined as a system that loses its function if any one part is removed, so it only indicates that the system did not evolve by the addition of single parts with no change in function. That still leaves several evolutionary mechanisms:

deletion of parts
addition of multiple parts; for example, duplication of much or all of the system (Pennisi 2001)
change of function
addition of a second function to a part (Aharoni et al. 2004)
gradual modification of parts

All of these mechanisms have been observed in genetic mutations. In particular, deletions and gene duplications are fairly common (Dujon et al. 2004; Hooper and Berg 2003; Lynch and Conery 2000), and together they make irreducible complexity not only possible but expected. In fact, it was predicted by Nobel-prize-winning geneticist Hermann Muller almost a century ago (Muller 1918, 463-464). Muller referred to it as interlocking complexity (Muller 1939).

Evolutionary origins of some irreducibly complex systems have been described in some detail. For example, the evolution of the Krebs citric acid cycle has been well studied (Meléndez-Hevia et al. 1996), and the evolution of an "irreducible" system of a hormone-receptor system has been elucidated (Bridgham et al. 2006). Irreducibility is no obstacle to their formation.

Even if irreducible complexity did prohibit Darwinian evolution, the conclusion of design does not follow. Other processes might have produced it. Irreducible complexity is an example of a failed argument from incredulity.

Irreducible complexity is poorly defined. It is defined in terms of parts, but it is far from obvious what a "part" is. Logically, the parts should be individual atoms, because they are the level of organization that does not get subdivided further in biochemistry, and they are the smallest level that biochemists consider in their analysis. Behe, however, considered sets of molecules to be individual parts, and he gave no indication of how he made his determinations.

Systems that have been considered irreducibly complex might not be. For example:
The mousetrap that Behe used as an example of irreducible complexity can be simplified by bending the holding arm slightly and removing the latch.
The bacterial flagellum is not irreducibly complex because it can lose many parts and still function, either as a simpler flagellum or a secretion system. Many proteins of the eukaryotic flagellum (also called a cilium or undulipodium) are known to be dispensable, because functional swimming flagella that lack these proteins are known to exist.
In spite of the complexity of Behe's protein transport example, there are other proteins for which no transport is necessary (see Ussery 1999 for references).
The immune system example that Behe includes is not irreducibly complex because the antibodies that mark invading cells for destruction might themselves hinder the function of those cells, allowing the system to function (albeit not as well) without the destroyer molecules of the complement system.


http://experimentalmath.info/blog/2009/08/misuse-of-probability-by-creation-scientists-and-others/

Stop spreading your lies badecker.

What do you even mean, "Irreducible complexity can evolve?"

The simple words, "Irreducible complexity" means that there is nothing useful from which an irreducible complexity component can evolve from. Evolution has to have some thing that is useful in mind for it to evolve that way. Nature doesn't simply evolve a clump of useless cells, that sit there for millions of years, continually evolving from less complex useless cells to more complex useless cells, with the idea that someday there will be an eye that will be useful to the then-evolved creature. To suggest this is to suggest great inteligence and planning in nature. This doesn't fit any theory of evolution.

For example. Let's say that you have a human eye. There is simply nothing that would flow in stages from something rather simple to something as complex as the human eye. According to evolution theory, there has to be some use for every little thing that evolves. There is no evolution explantation for a jump from a clump of useless cells to an eye. But that's what they would be... useless cells. Because there is no use for them prior to becoming an eye.

However, all that talk is playing with the idea of evolution. Cause and effect show that things are programmed. Not only life things, but everything. So, whatever you want to call evolution, it was programmed through cause and effect by something that is extremely greater than the whole universe, both in ability and intelligence.

There is no evidence of random chance changes without cause and effect. Such a thing does not even fit our thinking. All science is built on cause and effect. The greater the scientist, the more he uses cause and effect. All the scietists you quoted CAUSED the happenings that they observed. None of them watched these things happen in nature without manipulation of nature in some way.

Cool

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Irreducible_complexity

Like intelligent design, the concept it seeks to support, irreducible complexity has failed to gain any notable acceptance within the scientific community. One science writer called it a "full-blown intellectual surrender strategy" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irreducible_complexity#Methods_by_which_irreducible_complexity_may_evolve

As I said, it's debunked. It's pseudoscience without any grounds.

Radioactive decay is so far true randomness

https://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/177872/true-randomness-via-radioactive-decay

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radioactive_decay

Your pseudoscience cannot refute the facts, sorry. Evolution is a fact and you can't accept it because your religion has infected your brain. I'm truly sorry for you.

Regarding the eye argument which is used by many creationists:

This is the quintessential example of the argument from incredulity. The source making the claim usually quotes Darwin saying that the evolution of the eye seems "absurd in the highest degree". However, Darwin follows that statement with a three-and-a-half-page proposal of intermediate stages through which eyes might have evolved via gradual steps (Darwin 1872).

photosensitive cell
aggregates of pigment cells without a nerve
an optic nerve surrounded by pigment cells and covered by translucent skin
pigment cells forming a small depression
pigment cells forming a deeper depression
the skin over the depression taking a lens shape
muscles allowing the lens to adjust

All of these steps are known to be viable because all exist in animals living today. The increments between these steps are slight and may be broken down into even smaller increments. Natural selection should, under many circumstances, favor the increments. Since eyes do not fossilize well, we do not know that the development of the eye followed exactly that path, but we certainly cannot claim that no path exists.

Evidence for one step in the evolution of the vertebrate eye comes from comparative anatomy and genetics. The vertebrate βγ-crystallin genes, which code for several proteins crucial for the lens, are very similar to the Ciona βγ-crystallin gene. Ciona is an urochordate, a distant relative of vertebrates. Ciona's single βγ-crystallin gene is expressed in its otolith, a pigmented sister cell of the light-sensing ocellus. The origin of the lens appears to be based on co-optation of previously existing elements in a lensless system.

Nilsson and Pelger (1994) calculated that if each step were a 1 percent change, the evolution of the eye would take 1,829 steps, which could happen in 364,000 generations.


http://evolutionfaq.com/faq/eye-too-complex-have-evolved-naturally

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/The_eye_is_too_complex_to_have_evolved

legendary
Activity: 4046
Merit: 1389
June 03, 2017, 04:16:07 PM
All of your claims have been debunked badecker.

Irreducible complexity can evolve. It is defined as a system that loses its function if any one part is removed, so it only indicates that the system did not evolve by the addition of single parts with no change in function. That still leaves several evolutionary mechanisms:

deletion of parts
addition of multiple parts; for example, duplication of much or all of the system (Pennisi 2001)
change of function
addition of a second function to a part (Aharoni et al. 2004)
gradual modification of parts

All of these mechanisms have been observed in genetic mutations. In particular, deletions and gene duplications are fairly common (Dujon et al. 2004; Hooper and Berg 2003; Lynch and Conery 2000), and together they make irreducible complexity not only possible but expected. In fact, it was predicted by Nobel-prize-winning geneticist Hermann Muller almost a century ago (Muller 1918, 463-464). Muller referred to it as interlocking complexity (Muller 1939).

Evolutionary origins of some irreducibly complex systems have been described in some detail. For example, the evolution of the Krebs citric acid cycle has been well studied (Meléndez-Hevia et al. 1996), and the evolution of an "irreducible" system of a hormone-receptor system has been elucidated (Bridgham et al. 2006). Irreducibility is no obstacle to their formation.

Even if irreducible complexity did prohibit Darwinian evolution, the conclusion of design does not follow. Other processes might have produced it. Irreducible complexity is an example of a failed argument from incredulity.

Irreducible complexity is poorly defined. It is defined in terms of parts, but it is far from obvious what a "part" is. Logically, the parts should be individual atoms, because they are the level of organization that does not get subdivided further in biochemistry, and they are the smallest level that biochemists consider in their analysis. Behe, however, considered sets of molecules to be individual parts, and he gave no indication of how he made his determinations.

Systems that have been considered irreducibly complex might not be. For example:
The mousetrap that Behe used as an example of irreducible complexity can be simplified by bending the holding arm slightly and removing the latch.
The bacterial flagellum is not irreducibly complex because it can lose many parts and still function, either as a simpler flagellum or a secretion system. Many proteins of the eukaryotic flagellum (also called a cilium or undulipodium) are known to be dispensable, because functional swimming flagella that lack these proteins are known to exist.
In spite of the complexity of Behe's protein transport example, there are other proteins for which no transport is necessary (see Ussery 1999 for references).
The immune system example that Behe includes is not irreducibly complex because the antibodies that mark invading cells for destruction might themselves hinder the function of those cells, allowing the system to function (albeit not as well) without the destroyer molecules of the complement system.


http://experimentalmath.info/blog/2009/08/misuse-of-probability-by-creation-scientists-and-others/

Stop spreading your lies badecker.

What do you even mean, "Irreducible complexity can evolve?"

The simple words, "Irreducible complexity" means that there is nothing useful from which an irreducible complexity component can evolve from. Evolution has to have some thing that is useful in mind for it to evolve that way. Nature doesn't simply evolve a clump of useless cells, that sit there for millions of years, continually evolving from less complex useless cells to more complex useless cells, with the idea that someday there will be an eye that will be useful to the then-evolved creature. To suggest this is to suggest great inteligence and planning in nature. This doesn't fit any theory of evolution.

For example. Let's say that you have a human eye. There is simply nothing that would flow in stages from something rather simple to something as complex as the human eye. According to evolution theory, there has to be some use for every little thing that evolves. There is no evolution explantation for a jump from a clump of useless cells to an eye. But that's what they would be... useless cells. Because there is no use for them prior to becoming an eye.

However, all that talk is playing with the idea of evolution. Cause and effect show that things are programmed. Not only life things, but everything. So, whatever you want to call evolution, it was programmed through cause and effect by something that is extremely greater than the whole universe, both in ability and intelligence.

There is no evidence of random chance changes without cause and effect. Such a thing does not even fit our thinking. All science is built on cause and effect. The greater the scientist, the more he uses cause and effect. All the scietists you quoted CAUSED the happenings that they observed. None of them watched these things happen in nature without manipulation of nature in some way.

Cool
hero member
Activity: 1624
Merit: 645
June 03, 2017, 09:23:53 AM
All of your claims have been debunked badecker.

Irreducible complexity can evolve. It is defined as a system that loses its function if any one part is removed, so it only indicates that the system did not evolve by the addition of single parts with no change in function. That still leaves several evolutionary mechanisms:

deletion of parts
addition of multiple parts; for example, duplication of much or all of the system (Pennisi 2001)
change of function
addition of a second function to a part (Aharoni et al. 2004)
gradual modification of parts

All of these mechanisms have been observed in genetic mutations. In particular, deletions and gene duplications are fairly common (Dujon et al. 2004; Hooper and Berg 2003; Lynch and Conery 2000), and together they make irreducible complexity not only possible but expected. In fact, it was predicted by Nobel-prize-winning geneticist Hermann Muller almost a century ago (Muller 1918, 463-464). Muller referred to it as interlocking complexity (Muller 1939).

Evolutionary origins of some irreducibly complex systems have been described in some detail. For example, the evolution of the Krebs citric acid cycle has been well studied (Meléndez-Hevia et al. 1996), and the evolution of an "irreducible" system of a hormone-receptor system has been elucidated (Bridgham et al. 2006). Irreducibility is no obstacle to their formation.

Even if irreducible complexity did prohibit Darwinian evolution, the conclusion of design does not follow. Other processes might have produced it. Irreducible complexity is an example of a failed argument from incredulity.

Irreducible complexity is poorly defined. It is defined in terms of parts, but it is far from obvious what a "part" is. Logically, the parts should be individual atoms, because they are the level of organization that does not get subdivided further in biochemistry, and they are the smallest level that biochemists consider in their analysis. Behe, however, considered sets of molecules to be individual parts, and he gave no indication of how he made his determinations.

Systems that have been considered irreducibly complex might not be. For example:
The mousetrap that Behe used as an example of irreducible complexity can be simplified by bending the holding arm slightly and removing the latch.
The bacterial flagellum is not irreducibly complex because it can lose many parts and still function, either as a simpler flagellum or a secretion system. Many proteins of the eukaryotic flagellum (also called a cilium or undulipodium) are known to be dispensable, because functional swimming flagella that lack these proteins are known to exist.
In spite of the complexity of Behe's protein transport example, there are other proteins for which no transport is necessary (see Ussery 1999 for references).
The immune system example that Behe includes is not irreducibly complex because the antibodies that mark invading cells for destruction might themselves hinder the function of those cells, allowing the system to function (albeit not as well) without the destroyer molecules of the complement system.


http://experimentalmath.info/blog/2009/08/misuse-of-probability-by-creation-scientists-and-others/

Stop spreading your lies badecker.
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