Fiat Currency Always Fails - page 13.

magneto

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Quote from: Aikidoka on April 11, 2018, 03:09:53 PM

As a matter of fact, you cannot live without using fiat currency because all countries are using it, and even if you have bitcoin, you eventually will transfer it into fiat money. I am not saying it because I support it, but we have to be realistic and honest with this reality.

You cannot live without fiat money, and there is no fiat money without bitcoin. You just need to have some coins in order to have fiat money.

What are you saying?

Bitcoin can exist without fiat currency. Only reason why people are trading fiat with bitcoin is because bitcoin is not yet completely mainstream. The discussion here is about the depreciative nature of fiat, and how they always end up being valueless. I completely agree with that, as you simply can't find any successful fiat currencies at holding value for the long term.

Bitcoin/gold/silver/other decentralised currencies can not only exist without fiat, it can also hold its value in the long term.

Aikidoka

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As a matter of fact, you cannot live without using fiat currency because all countries are using it, and even if you have bitcoin, you eventually will transfer it into fiat money. I am not saying it because I support it, but we have to be realistic and honest with this reality.

You cannot live without fiat money, and there is no fiat money without bitcoin. You just need to have some coins in order to have fiat money.

Hell-raiser

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Quote from: BobK71 on April 03, 2018, 03:42:24 PM

See:

There Is No Escaping History. Fiat Currency Eventually Fails.

Notice that this is a critique of fiat money -- not a critique of state-issued money under a gold/silver or other standard. Fiat money is a rare occurrence in modern history. (We live in strange times!) As we can see, the examples found by the author are a small number of short periods here and there.

I have my own critique of gold/silver standards, but that's another issue.

Oh, ZeroHedge again, the messenger of eternal doom and gloom.

Quote

Paper currency has led to the collapse of almost every economy that has tried to institute a fiat currency to trade for goods and services. It’s not looking very well for the once mighty dollar, either.

Didn't read past these first two sentences as it is pretty much clear that they don't know what they are talking about. In simple terms, the author of that piece, whoever he might be, is putting the cart before the horse. It may in fact look like paper money leads to a collapse of almost every economy but in reality it is always the other way round. Whatever case you consider, the failure of paper money is the outcome of the failure of the state, not its cause. The Weimar Republic, Yugoslavia, Soviet Union, Zimbabwe, you name it, it was all a failure or breakdown of the state which quickly led to a collapse of the monetary system.

data_teks

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Problem is now that all money issued by countries is fiat, after US went out of gold standard some years before.

BobK71

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Quote from: marinomario on April 03, 2018, 05:04:31 PM

In my opinion As long as fiat money still serves as a medium of exchange, it will always be needed by the people of today and therefore it will always have a function as an asset to all of us. although the best value-keeping asset is gold but even though gold is quite liquid, it is no longer money that serves as an intermediary.

True, but only a small portion of your savings needs to serve as a medium of exchange. Most of it needs to be a store of value.

BobK71

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Quote from: nur rochid on April 08, 2018, 10:47:39 AM

but it seem to fiat currency printing should have a basis, and can not print as desired, because eventually there will be inflation. but for the long term i think fiat money making prices are not appropriate

There are all kinds of rules regarding money printing. In Britain and the US there were laws against printing money beyond a certain ratio to gold reserves.

But all these fail to stop over-printing, because the incentives are for the elites to print more, and they always find a way around the rules. (E.g. a night at the Waldorf Astoria in New York was advertised for $5 in the 1930s. Now it's probably closer to $500.)

BrentMack

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Nothing lasts forever and fiat does not escape this law. With the world advancing so much technologically and making so much advancement, there will be no room for fiat money as everything will be done electronically.

timerland

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Quote from: BobK71 on April 03, 2018, 03:42:24 PM

See:

There Is No Escaping History. Fiat Currency Eventually Fails.

Notice that this is a critique of fiat money -- not a critique of state-issued money under a gold/silver or other standard. Fiat money is a rare occurrence in modern history. (We live in strange times!) As we can see, the examples found by the author are a small number of short periods here and there.

I have my own critique of gold/silver standards, but that's another issue.

Fiat currencies never lasts, you don't see fiat from even just 100 years ago ending up still in circulation with the same value.

A lot of people blindly trust in the government and their ability to maintain the value of their fiat currency. The fact is that it never happens. Fiat currency always depreciates in value over time without any exception because of the fact that governments can do whatever they want to issue more of it.

Investing some of your portfolio into BTC/other inflation hedges is the way to go imo for the long run.

Get as much money out of fiat as you can, while you can.

Notcalculator

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Inflation isnt entirely bad. Capitalism needs to grow and right now that's the only way. Of course there are questions of sustainability. How long will this become sustainable? and it there a ceiling to continuous growth? I dont completely agree that fiat eventually fails. The truth is fiat fails because of greed and mismanagement.

Bitcoinjheta

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Quote from: BobK71 on April 10, 2018, 08:01:08 AM

Quote from: MoonIsBlue on April 03, 2018, 05:01:15 PM

Hyperinflation, you'd get a venezualian situation or post WW1 Germany. Its food stamps and no jobs when that happens. But in context of Bitcoin, will likely do very fucking well.

To be honest, I don't predict hyperinflation... That tends to happen to countries that have been pushed to the brink by the global imperial elites, because the elites want to make an example of a rebelling government, in the case of today's Venezuela, or because they wanted to suppress a non-friendly rising power, in the case of 1920s Germany.

What tends to happen in the West, when the system fails, is a more orderly surrender to reality by the elites. There's usually a (de-facto) devaluation of state-issued money against non-state money like gold (and now probably Bitcoin as well.) Some inflation will be part of the mix, but nowhere near the craziness of hyperinflation.

The elites have to make the retreat orderly, in order to maintain what remains of trust in their money system.

Either way, everyone should hold a portion of their savings in non-state money.

In my country fiat does not always fail infact it is the backbone of our survival though it is not always at its highest value all the time and will not pump up as high as bitcoin which double or triple or more in a short span of time. Digital money is now very common especially to elite people but to us ordinary citizens fiat is our main currency. However, having cryptocurrency like bitcoin helped us surpassed from being ordinary.

BobK71

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Quote from: MoonIsBlue on April 03, 2018, 05:01:15 PM

Hyperinflation, you'd get a venezualian situation or post WW1 Germany. Its food stamps and no jobs when that happens. But in context of Bitcoin, will likely do very fucking well.

To be honest, I don't predict hyperinflation... That tends to happen to countries that have been pushed to the brink by the global imperial elites, because the elites want to make an example of a rebelling government, in the case of today's Venezuela, or because they wanted to suppress a non-friendly rising power, in the case of 1920s Germany.

What tends to happen in the West, when the system fails, is a more orderly surrender to reality by the elites. There's usually a (de-facto) devaluation of state-issued money against non-state money like gold (and now probably Bitcoin as well.) Some inflation will be part of the mix, but nowhere near the craziness of hyperinflation.

The elites have to make the retreat orderly, in order to maintain what remains of trust in their money system.

Either way, everyone should hold a portion of their savings in non-state money.

kamilah147

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Quote from: BobK71 on April 03, 2018, 03:42:24 PM

See:

There Is No Escaping History. Fiat Currency Eventually Fails.

Notice that this is a critique of fiat money -- not a critique of state-issued money under a gold/silver or other standard. Fiat money is a rare occurrence in modern history. (We live in strange times!) As we can see, the examples found by the author are a small number of short periods here and there.

I have my own critique of gold/silver standards, but that's another issue.

the name of the times change is always changing. because the leadership of a country is also changing, and they have their own thinking.

Harper6

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Quote from: TYPEcoin on April 09, 2018, 07:58:37 AM

I think that a long as fiat still serves of exchange it will be usual need to people today and therefore it will have functions as an asset to all of us.

Fiat currency does not always fail. I disagree with you in this regard. Fiat currency is actually the backbone of the current market system and every country around the world has printed a huge amount of fiat currency or paper money backed by gold. Only the inflation in general and hyperinflation in particular in Venezuela in the last years pose a threat to the demand of the paper currency.

chennan

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Quote from: amishmanish on April 08, 2018, 10:28:41 PM

Quote from: chennan on April 08, 2018, 03:21:23 PM

Quote from: amishmanish on April 08, 2018, 12:46:26 PM

The Central banks made a laughing stock of themselves post the 2008 meltdown. Revelations regarding the nexus between mortgage companies, insurers, investment banks and the regulator should be enough for anyone to never dare to trust them anymore.

What the article says may very well be true. Their is a resurgent China which is making things difficult for US and other Western countries. The US/ West cannot cut down on their expenses without risking the scenario of a Russia/ China dominance or being seen as weak in the wake of of Jihadist terrorism. This brings us to a situation where they need to print more and spend more. This is very similar to the examples given in the article.

If this does happen, it'll be a painful and long process. In today's connected world, we don't want this to happen. If a decision has to be taken on replacing the reserve currency, can it be taken without hurting world stability? I don't think it's possible for such a thing to happen in a non-violent, prudent decision kind of way.

The Central Banks never necessarily caused the housing market crisis, but rather it was the "too big to fail" banks that did. They lended out money like crazy in "subprime mortgages" that were pretty much guaranteed to fail, but the banks wanted to sell as many as they could and irresponsibly make people enclosed in debt with no end in sight.

Sure, Central Banks do other irresponsible stuff, but that has to do more with the money supply, not necessarily loans to everyday normal people.

What was the embarrassing part was the reaction the government had and bailed out the greedy CEO fucks at the "too big to fail" banks because they deemed them too crucial to the economy to let them fail... "free markets" my ass.

You're right about the "too big to fail" banks. I feel the central bank was complicit in this because they are supposed to be the regulator right?

The bubble that was forming due to all those mortgage derivative bonds couldn't have escaped the attention of the regulator/ watchdogs. They just chose to look the other way while credit rating agencies stamped them as AAA. Though most reports absolve them of all blame, pointing on the lack of focussed oversight, it still is hard/ naive to believe that the officials involved were completely clueless. There is a good documentary by Michael Moore on this.

And absolutely yes, the bail-outs for all these millionaire CEOs and the increase in their payouts was just a "Fuck You" to the common people I guess.

Oh yeah, I'm pretty sure there are ways you can pass the blame around to all banking and even governmental entities about what happened during 2008, but it just kills me that the actual people who decided to make those terrible business decisions, whether it was morally right or wrong, wasn't allowed to fail as a business due to those bad decisions. I can't stand when we boast that we are a free capitalistic society that allows freedom to achieve whatever we want when we don't allow businesses who bad deals are allowed to be saved and the same CEO's remain on top for the "good of the people".

TYPEcoin

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I think that a long as fiat still serves of exchange it will be usual need to people today and therefore it will have functions as an asset to all of us.

carter34

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I believe there are highs and lows for most things , human and currency inclusive. Currencies of the world falls from time. So when cryptocurrency or bitcoin falls in price, I don't panic, I just know it is going to regain.

magneto

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Quote from: BobK71 on April 03, 2018, 03:42:24 PM

See:

There Is No Escaping History. Fiat Currency Eventually Fails.

Notice that this is a critique of fiat money -- not a critique of state-issued money under a gold/silver or other standard. Fiat money is a rare occurrence in modern history. (We live in strange times!) As we can see, the examples found by the author are a small number of short periods here and there.

I have my own critique of gold/silver standards, but that's another issue.

We're living in weird times indeed. Probably the first time in history that the entire world is completely off the gold or silver standard or any form of "real money" and fiat currency is the norm everywhere.

Fiat currency has never survived, because it is issued by some central entity. If that central entity decides to abuse its powers to finance something by inflating the monetary supply, or if that central entity just completely collapses, the paper would be completely worthless. Intrinsically, it's worth nothing.

You'd be naive to think that this stability stemming from a debt based fiat system can last long. That's the main reason why I invest in bitcoin as well, as a hedge against fiat currencies. People don't realise it now because they think fiat holds intrinsic value, but in reality, fiat always loses value in the long run, and goes to 0. Even promissory notes that promise to pay you something can be abused through fractional reserve, unless bitcoin, which cannot.

amishmanish

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Quote from: chennan on April 08, 2018, 03:21:23 PM

Quote from: amishmanish on April 08, 2018, 12:46:26 PM

The Central banks made a laughing stock of themselves post the 2008 meltdown. Revelations regarding the nexus between mortgage companies, insurers, investment banks and the regulator should be enough for anyone to never dare to trust them anymore.

What the article says may very well be true. Their is a resurgent China which is making things difficult for US and other Western countries. The US/ West cannot cut down on their expenses without risking the scenario of a Russia/ China dominance or being seen as weak in the wake of of Jihadist terrorism. This brings us to a situation where they need to print more and spend more. This is very similar to the examples given in the article.

If this does happen, it'll be a painful and long process. In today's connected world, we don't want this to happen. If a decision has to be taken on replacing the reserve currency, can it be taken without hurting world stability? I don't think it's possible for such a thing to happen in a non-violent, prudent decision kind of way.

The Central Banks never necessarily caused the housing market crisis, but rather it was the "too big to fail" banks that did. They lended out money like crazy in "subprime mortgages" that were pretty much guaranteed to fail, but the banks wanted to sell as many as they could and irresponsibly make people enclosed in debt with no end in sight.

Sure, Central Banks do other irresponsible stuff, but that has to do more with the money supply, not necessarily loans to everyday normal people.

What was the embarrassing part was the reaction the government had and bailed out the greedy CEO fucks at the "too big to fail" banks because they deemed them too crucial to the economy to let them fail... "free markets" my ass.

You're right about the "too big to fail" banks. I feel the central bank was complicit in this because they are supposed to be the regulator right?

The bubble that was forming due to all those mortgage derivative bonds couldn't have escaped the attention of the regulator/ watchdogs. They just chose to look the other way while credit rating agencies stamped them as AAA. Though most reports absolve them of all blame, pointing on the lack of focussed oversight, it still is hard/ naive to believe that the officials involved were completely clueless. There is a good documentary by Michael Moore on this.

And absolutely yes, the bail-outs for all these millionaire CEOs and the increase in their payouts was just a "Fuck You" to the common people I guess.

chennan

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Quote from: gantez on April 08, 2018, 01:18:48 PM

Quote from: Kumic on April 03, 2018, 06:54:06 PM

I mean let's face it, it's easier to handle money electronically than with papers in the hand. And if we compare fiat on the bank account and the blockchain money guesses who have the advantage...well not quite yet, but the potential for the blockchain is huge.

The advantage of electronic money is the major reason that bitcoin and digital currency have not been dismissed or jettison. The usage of electronic money helps in the understanding, usage and near adoption of cryptocurrency. It would have been a total failure if there was nothing like electronic money in the first place. This is why we still hear of bitcoin and altcoins, otherwise, it would have been long forgotten to the anals of history.

You using your debit card and transferring money for beer to a friend using Venmo isn't the same the same as "digital cash" though.. For one thing you have to trust a third party to be able to verify your funds. Using cash you can verify someone paid you and that you have the money by looking down in your hand and seeing that you are physically holding cash.

The great part about Bitcoin is that it has both the benefits of being digital and also having no third party needed to verify that you are holding cash in your "wallet".

chennan

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Quote from: amishmanish on April 08, 2018, 12:46:26 PM

The Central banks made a laughing stock of themselves post the 2008 meltdown. Revelations regarding the nexus between mortgage companies, insurers, investment banks and the regulator should be enough for anyone to never dare to trust them anymore.

What the article says may very well be true. Their is a resurgent China which is making things difficult for US and other Western countries. The US/ West cannot cut down on their expenses without risking the scenario of a Russia/ China dominance or being seen as weak in the wake of of Jihadist terrorism. This brings us to a situation where they need to print more and spend more. This is very similar to the examples given in the article.

If this does happen, it'll be a painful and long process. In today's connected world, we don't want this to happen. If a decision has to be taken on replacing the reserve currency, can it be taken without hurting world stability? I don't think it's possible for such a thing to happen in a non-violent, prudent decision kind of way.

The Central Banks never necessarily caused the housing market crisis, but rather it was the "too big to fail" banks that did. They lended out money like crazy in "subprime mortgages" that were pretty much guaranteed to fail, but the banks wanted to sell as many as they could and irresponsibly make people enclosed in debt with no end in sight.

Sure, Central Banks do other irresponsible stuff, but that has to do more with the money supply, not necessarily loans to everyday normal people.

What was the embarrassing part was the reaction the government had and bailed out the greedy CEO fucks at the "too big to fail" banks because they deemed them too crucial to the economy to let them fail... "free markets" my ass.

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