FIFA World Cup 2026 :Canada/Mexico/United States: Discussion Thread - page 143.

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Quote from: Sithara007 on August 31, 2023, 10:20:09 PM

Quote from: nullama on August 31, 2023, 10:05:05 PM

Yeah, fair enough, but what I'm saying is that in South America and Europe you have fans talking about footaball 365 days a year, every year.

It's like religion. Everyone loves it and lives it.

Whereas in America is just popular when there's something big going on.

Well.. the last line summarizes it. It's a good thing, right? In Europe and Latin America, too much importance is being given to one sport and everything else suffers as a result. But in the United States, no one sport is having a monopoly and there is enough attention being given to most of the Olympic disciplines. One disadvantage with the United States is that despite being the no.1 economy in the world, they don't have a good football league. The Major League Soccer is nowhere in comparison to European leagues such as Serie A or EPL.

Without a doubt the local soccer league on the US is weak, but I think FIFA by giving the world cup to the US as the main host is trying to strengthen soccer as one of the main sports there, if this can be done and the infrastructure on colleges can be used to train players, and those which are psychically gifted begin to select soccer as their sport of preference over baseball, basketball and football then we could begin to see a major improvement on the quality of the soccer played at the US.

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Quote from: nullama on August 31, 2023, 10:05:05 PM

Yeah, fair enough, but what I'm saying is that in South America and Europe you have fans talking about footaball 365 days a year, every year.

It's like religion. Everyone loves it and lives it.

Whereas in America is just popular when there's something big going on.

Well.. the last line summarizes it. It's a good thing, right? In Europe and Latin America, too much importance is being given to one sport and everything else suffers as a result. But in the United States, no one sport is having a monopoly and there is enough attention being given to most of the Olympic disciplines. One disadvantage with the United States is that despite being the no.1 economy in the world, they don't have a good football league. The Major League Soccer is nowhere in comparison to European leagues such as Serie A or EPL.

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Quote from: Leviathan.007 on August 31, 2023, 06:40:23 PM

~snip~
Not just me but everyone knows football is the first priority in America because the American people usually prefer to watch basketball instead of Football but we are talking about a great tournament like the World Cup in which people from all over the world will come to watch the games, there is the same situation in America and even if football is not their first priority but I'm sure their people will pay more attention to this sport in during the World Cup.

Yeah, fair enough, but what I'm saying is that in South America and Europe you have fans talking about footaball 365 days a year, every year.

It's like religion. Everyone loves it and lives it.

Whereas in America is just popular when there's something big going on.

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Quote from: nullama on August 30, 2023, 02:07:46 AM

Quote from: Leviathan.007 on August 29, 2023, 07:14:20 PM

~snip~
We know some American countries have much more interest in football than other countries, for example in Brazil every kid plays football in the street whenever they are free and get a chance while they don't have many coaches and they don't learn football academically. While in America there is not much interest like they have in Brazil.

Basically every South American country is at the same level of interest.

There's only one sport in those countries, football.

Nothing else comes even close.

In the US things are very different, and they have many different sports, and football is just one more of those.

Very different attitudes towards the sport.

Not just me but everyone knows football is the first priority in America because the American people usually prefer to watch basketball instead of Football but we are talking about a great tournament like the World Cup in which people from all over the world will come to watch the games, there is the same situation in America and even if football is not their first priority but I'm sure their people will pay more attention to this sport in during the World Cup.

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Quote from: shogun47 on August 31, 2023, 12:39:03 PM

Quote from: Japinat on August 31, 2023, 09:40:18 AM

Quote from: bitgolden on August 29, 2023, 02:59:05 PM

I would say that it's also a good business as well, it's a profitable one. You could see the celebrities buying teams for the last decade or so, why are they doing that? Because if you buy a team, or a share of it, and then spend just a little bit money on it, then you could end up getting just a little bit success and sell it for a lot more.

Look at Michael Jordan, that dude considered to be the best player that ever played this game and he did nearly nothing from his basketball contract, but the moment he bought Hornets? He could sell that team for billions and billions now. That's how you make a profit, you buy a team for very little, and then sell it for a lot of money in the future because teams get valued higher and higher.

Somehow debatable because there are other players in the NBA league who did achieved more than what Michael Jordan had. It's that just he was the face of the NBA and he's the idol for the most people but if we look at it closely, there are a lot more guys who have achieved more and won more rings compared to him. Also, he already sold the Hornets for $3 billion and the wonderful part after that, he's still one of the shareholders and will still get profits overtime while the franchise is still running.

That is quite a short version of Michael Jordan's story. There is even a movie now and everyone is aware that he was a pioneer in signing merchandise contracts that grant him a share of the revenue, in his case Nike. Until 2020, he has made an estimated $1.3 billion from his Nike deal. He earned $256 million from Nike in 2022 alone. So where his money comes from is a share in marketing revenue.

The big difference is that the money he gets is cash on a yearly basis. He can only sell the Hornets once and he has to give up the feeling and status of being an owner as well. The real value is his Nike deal.

I also think that it is not that easy. Can the Chelsea owner be sure to go home with a profit? I don't know and times can change as well, business can shift from one place to a different place. Though it has been very cheap a while ago to buy clubs.

World Cups and such can be catalysts to pricing and such, but I doubt that someone buys a club in order to sell it in 4 or 8 years from now. Events like the World Cup make construction companies rich who are well connected with FIFA officials. That's how the world works over there.

Even though we could definitely say that Jordan made a lot of money from the Nike deal without a doubt (and the sudden increase recently has been because air 1's are getting reproduction) we could still can't ignore the team purchase as well. He spent 275 million dollars to buy the team, and now he can sell it for nearly 2 billion dollars, that's a huge gain without a doubt.

I think if you look when he signed the Nike deal and how much he has made so far, this beats that, he bought the team later obviously after he retired, and then he has made more money to this day in shorter amount of time. Obviously he has to spend some money on the team time to time, but we could say that he is overall making more money on that the moment he sells the team than anything else he has ever made.

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Quote from: Japinat on August 31, 2023, 09:40:18 AM

Quote from: bitgolden on August 29, 2023, 02:59:05 PM

Quote from: Japinat on August 28, 2023, 10:32:26 AM

Quote from: nullama on August 27, 2023, 11:46:24 PM

At the end of the day, any sport that is not amateur, or simply a group of friends doing it as a hobby will be driven by money. Simple as that.

The moment a sport gets organized, and there is a professional aspect about it, it's all about money.

It's actually on the name itself. Being a Professional means you are getting paid money to do something. That's when some people "go pro" at their sports, the exact moment when they start getting paid money.

It is always about money and it's what keeping the sports industry and any other industry moving that involves professionals and becoming better and better as the years passed. These big names in any given sport will surely not play this long if it's not about money in the first place, sure they love their chosen sports because that is their passion, gotta give them that, but I doubt that it is still the same when we take out money in the equation.

I would say that it's also a good business as well, it's a profitable one. You could see the celebrities buying teams for the last decade or so, why are they doing that? Because if you buy a team, or a share of it, and then spend just a little bit money on it, then you could end up getting just a little bit success and sell it for a lot more.

Look at Michael Jordan, that dude considered to be the best player that ever played this game and he did nearly nothing from his basketball contract, but the moment he bought Hornets? He could sell that team for billions and billions now. That's how you make a profit, you buy a team for very little, and then sell it for a lot of money in the future because teams get valued higher and higher.

Somehow debatable because there are other players in the NBA league who did achieved more than what Michael Jordan had. It's that just he was the face of the NBA and he's the idol for the most people but if we look at it closely, there are a lot more guys who have achieved more and won more rings compared to him. Also, he already sold the Hornets for $3 billion and the wonderful part after that, he's still one of the shareholders and will still get profits overtime while the franchise is still running.

That is quite a short version of Michael Jordan's story. There is even a movie now and everyone is aware that he was a pioneer in signing merchandise contracts that grant him a share of the revenue, in his case Nike. Until 2020, he has made an estimated $1.3 billion from his Nike deal. He earned $256 million from Nike in 2022 alone. So where his money comes from is a share in marketing revenue.

The big difference is that the money he gets is cash on a yearly basis. He can only sell the Hornets once and he has to give up the feeling and status of being an owner as well. The real value is his Nike deal.

I also think that it is not that easy. Can the Chelsea owner be sure to go home with a profit? I don't know and times can change as well, business can shift from one place to a different place. Though it has been very cheap a while ago to buy clubs.

World Cups and such can be catalysts to pricing and such, but I doubt that someone buys a club in order to sell it in 4 or 8 years from now. Events like the World Cup make construction companies rich who are well connected with FIFA officials. That's how the world works over there.

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Quote from: bitgolden on August 29, 2023, 02:59:05 PM

Quote from: Japinat on August 28, 2023, 10:32:26 AM

Quote from: nullama on August 27, 2023, 11:46:24 PM

At the end of the day, any sport that is not amateur, or simply a group of friends doing it as a hobby will be driven by money. Simple as that.

The moment a sport gets organized, and there is a professional aspect about it, it's all about money.

It's actually on the name itself. Being a Professional means you are getting paid money to do something. That's when some people "go pro" at their sports, the exact moment when they start getting paid money.

It is always about money and it's what keeping the sports industry and any other industry moving that involves professionals and becoming better and better as the years passed. These big names in any given sport will surely not play this long if it's not about money in the first place, sure they love their chosen sports because that is their passion, gotta give them that, but I doubt that it is still the same when we take out money in the equation.

I would say that it's also a good business as well, it's a profitable one. You could see the celebrities buying teams for the last decade or so, why are they doing that? Because if you buy a team, or a share of it, and then spend just a little bit money on it, then you could end up getting just a little bit success and sell it for a lot more.

Look at Michael Jordan, that dude considered to be the best player that ever played this game and he did nearly nothing from his basketball contract, but the moment he bought Hornets? He could sell that team for billions and billions now. That's how you make a profit, you buy a team for very little, and then sell it for a lot of money in the future because teams get valued higher and higher.

Somehow debatable because there are other players in the NBA league who did achieved more than what Michael Jordan had. It's that just he was the face of the NBA and he's the idol for the most people but if we look at it closely, there are a lot more guys who have achieved more and won more rings compared to him. Also, he already sold the Hornets for $3 billion and the wonderful part after that, he's still one of the shareholders and will still get profits overtime while the franchise is still running.

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Quote from: Sithara007 on August 30, 2023, 03:50:32 AM

I am not denying the fact that Mexico is not exactly a low-crime destination. But at the same time, for comparison United States is not exactly a low crime destination. Every now and then, we hear news about mass shootings and all. So I don't think that we should focus on the higher crime rate in Mexico. If countries such as South Africa can host the tournament, then what is the issue with Mexico? Anyway, the security arrangements will be very tight and I don't believe that there will be any untoward incidents during this tournament.

Mexico is looks not safety host based on three countries become host of World Cup 2026 between Canada and United State, I don't have ideas with FIFA why choose Mexico is host of World Cup and seems two countries becoming host of World Cup 2026 seems enough. Homework for Mexico government how to change their country reputation with criminal cases become more safety country when World Cup will play, have left several years later and I sure FIFA will not change immediately host for World Cup.
Need huge promotion do by Mexico government about their country most friendly right now for all traveler and there are not any criminal cases yet based on how bad reputation from Mexico.

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Quote from: Silberman on August 29, 2023, 12:32:37 AM

Quote from: Sithara007 on August 28, 2023, 09:36:16 PM

I have posted this before. The decision to grant the hosting rights to Qatar for the 2022 world cup was a grave mistake from the part of FIFA. There were issues related to poor treatment being meted out to the construction workers, as well as issues regarding discrimination against certain sections of the visitors. Even in 2018, Russia hosted the tournament without any major issues. But that was not the case with Qatar in 2022. Hopefully the 2026 edition would be an occasion where the visitors and fans are treated with respect.

I hope this is the case as this was the most common complain fans had about the Qatar world cup, however there are things that could easily go wrong, the public security at Mexico is low and fans could face some dangers if going there, and while the US will host most of the games there could be some issues there as well, as visas could be difficult to get if migratory laws get harsher and the possibility of an attack against the stadiums will always be there.

I would guess that Mexico ones will not get all that much visitors, not as many as USA ones to be fair. I think it's obvious that we are going to end up seeing USA to get the most visitors out of all three nations and they are going to do fine. This is of course not guaranteed, but I bet that it's not going to be a big deal and we should be seeing trouble on the long run.

This is of course a trouble when you consider that it's going to end up with a cultural resemblance as well, there are tons of western nations going to world cup, and most of the time it's either Latin American or European teams that wins it, and that means cultures are quite close enough, for clothing, drinking, acting, everything will be pretty similar.

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Quote from: Litzki1990 on August 30, 2023, 02:16:51 AM

A very small number of matches will be played in Mexico, while 80% of the matches will be played in the Americas, with Mexico as the only World Cup host country. Crime happens in all countries and police and military are there to fight crime so when a country hosts a World Cup that country will host the World Cup with maximum security and major tournaments like the World Cup are less likely to have untoward incidents as law enforcement is very less at that time. A higher amount is seen. If the world cup tournament can be finished well in Africa then why not in Mexico because Mexico is a much safer country compared to Africa. I hope that the 10% matches that will be held in Mexico can be completed well and with more security by the Mexican administration.

I am not denying the fact that Mexico is not exactly a low-crime destination. But at the same time, for comparison United States is not exactly a low crime destination. Every now and then, we hear news about mass shootings and all. So I don't think that we should focus on the higher crime rate in Mexico. If countries such as South Africa can host the tournament, then what is the issue with Mexico? Anyway, the security arrangements will be very tight and I don't believe that there will be any untoward incidents during this tournament.

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Quote from: Sithara007 on August 29, 2023, 10:48:12 PM

Quote from: Silberman on August 29, 2023, 12:32:37 AM

I hope this is the case as this was the most common complain fans had about the Qatar world cup, however there are things that could easily go wrong, the public security at Mexico is low and fans could face some dangers if going there, and while the US will host most of the games there could be some issues there as well, as visas could be difficult to get if migratory laws get harsher and the possibility of an attack against the stadiums will always be there.

Mexico is hosting only around 10% of the games. They are hosts only on paper (along with Canada), and it is the United States that is hosting 80% of the matches. And Mexico was the hosts for the 1986 FIFA World Cup. It went well without any major incidents, so I am not that worried about the security situation in that country now. Even recently, we had world cups in countries with an above average crime rate, such as Brazil and South Africa. But these tournaments went ahead without any untoward issues. The same will happen with Mexico this time.

A very small number of matches will be played in Mexico, while 80% of the matches will be played in the Americas, with Mexico as the only World Cup host country. Crime happens in all countries and police and military are there to fight crime so when a country hosts a World Cup that country will host the World Cup with maximum security and major tournaments like the World Cup are less likely to have untoward incidents as law enforcement is very less at that time. A higher amount is seen. If the world cup tournament can be finished well in Africa then why not in Mexico because Mexico is a much safer country compared to Africa. I hope that the 10% matches that will be held in Mexico can be completed well and with more security by the Mexican administration.

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Quote from: Leviathan.007 on August 29, 2023, 07:14:20 PM

~snip~
We know some American countries have much more interest in football than other countries, for example in Brazil every kid plays football in the street whenever they are free and get a chance while they don't have many coaches and they don't learn football academically. While in America there is not much interest like they have in Brazil.

Basically every South American country is at the same level of interest.

There's only one sport in those countries, football.

Nothing else comes even close.

In the US things are very different, and they have many different sports, and football is just one more of those.

Very different attitudes towards the sport.

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Quote from: ndutndut on August 29, 2023, 03:58:46 PM

Quote from: marcous on August 26, 2023, 05:08:39 AM

I think Brazil, Argentina, Uruguay and several other countries on the American continent make soccer the favorite there. Even though in America itself football is inferior to sports such as the NBA, it is hoped that the holding of the 2026 World Cup this time will be a good opportunity to increase and attract audience interest in football in the region.

For the appointment of the World Cup host, FIFA has its own regulations in screening participants. Of course all countries have the right to volunteer to host, even the defending champions. However, FIFA prioritizes areas of the country that have minimal interest, this is done as a means of promotion and increasing interest in football itself.

Yes that's right. This will be their opportunity to develop and promote football so that it is more interested in it as a favorite sport. I often follow American football. Starting from getting "one-time use" players from Europe to now being able to export players to Europe. Indeed, the prestige of soccer in America is still inferior to other sporting events, but the progress of soccer in the United States is increasing from year to year.

I think that if America is serious about football, they can be more dangerous because they have the money to build FIFA standard infrastructure and everything that supports the quality of the players. So with them hosting the 2026 world cup I suspect they will continue to add so that in time the world cup will count.

That's true! With Messi negotiating to play in the United States and the next World Cup to be hosted there, I have no doubt, this will draw the attention of the whole world and will be a "game changer" for football in the US.
I believe, the United States is not a hegemony in football because it is not American culture to play football like in Brazil or other American countries. They have money and structure and that's a fact, if the Americans start looking at football in a different way, if they train and improve their techniques, I have no doubt in the next world cups they will be able to be champions, or at least to be among the top 3 of the world cup.

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Quote from: Silberman on August 29, 2023, 12:32:37 AM

I hope this is the case as this was the most common complain fans had about the Qatar world cup, however there are things that could easily go wrong, the public security at Mexico is low and fans could face some dangers if going there, and while the US will host most of the games there could be some issues there as well, as visas could be difficult to get if migratory laws get harsher and the possibility of an attack against the stadiums will always be there.

Mexico is hosting only around 10% of the games. They are hosts only on paper (along with Canada), and it is the United States that is hosting 80% of the matches. And Mexico was the hosts for the 1986 FIFA World Cup. It went well without any major incidents, so I am not that worried about the security situation in that country now. Even recently, we had world cups in countries with an above average crime rate, such as Brazil and South Africa. But these tournaments went ahead without any untoward issues. The same will happen with Mexico this time.

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Quote from: ndutndut on August 29, 2023, 03:58:46 PM

Quote from: marcous on August 26, 2023, 05:08:39 AM

I think Brazil, Argentina, Uruguay and several other countries on the American continent make soccer the favorite there. Even though in America itself football is inferior to sports such as the NBA, it is hoped that the holding of the 2026 World Cup this time will be a good opportunity to increase and attract audience interest in football in the region.

For the appointment of the World Cup host, FIFA has its own regulations in screening participants. Of course all countries have the right to volunteer to host, even the defending champions. However, FIFA prioritizes areas of the country that have minimal interest, this is done as a means of promotion and increasing interest in football itself.

Yes that's right. This will be their opportunity to develop and promote football so that it is more interested in it as a favorite sport. I often follow American football. Starting from getting "one-time use" players from Europe to now being able to export players to Europe. Indeed, the prestige of soccer in America is still inferior to other sporting events, but the progress of soccer in the United States is increasing from year to year.

I think that if America is serious about football, they can be more dangerous because they have the money to build FIFA standard infrastructure and everything that supports the quality of the players. So with them hosting the 2026 world cup I suspect they will continue to add so that in time the world cup will count.

We know some American countries have much more interest in football than other countries, for example in Brazil every kid plays football in the street whenever they are free and get a chance while they don't have many coaches and they don't learn football academically. While in America there is not much interest like they have in Brazil.

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Quote from: marcous on August 26, 2023, 05:08:39 AM

I think Brazil, Argentina, Uruguay and several other countries on the American continent make soccer the favorite there. Even though in America itself football is inferior to sports such as the NBA, it is hoped that the holding of the 2026 World Cup this time will be a good opportunity to increase and attract audience interest in football in the region.

For the appointment of the World Cup host, FIFA has its own regulations in screening participants. Of course all countries have the right to volunteer to host, even the defending champions. However, FIFA prioritizes areas of the country that have minimal interest, this is done as a means of promotion and increasing interest in football itself.

Yes that's right. This will be their opportunity to develop and promote football so that it is more interested in it as a favorite sport. I often follow American football. Starting from getting "one-time use" players from Europe to now being able to export players to Europe. Indeed, the prestige of soccer in America is still inferior to other sporting events, but the progress of soccer in the United States is increasing from year to year.

I think that if America is serious about football, they can be more dangerous because they have the money to build FIFA standard infrastructure and everything that supports the quality of the players. So with them hosting the 2026 world cup I suspect they will continue to add so that in time the world cup will count.

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Quote from: Japinat on August 28, 2023, 10:32:26 AM

Quote from: nullama on August 27, 2023, 11:46:24 PM

At the end of the day, any sport that is not amateur, or simply a group of friends doing it as a hobby will be driven by money. Simple as that.

The moment a sport gets organized, and there is a professional aspect about it, it's all about money.

It's actually on the name itself. Being a Professional means you are getting paid money to do something. That's when some people "go pro" at their sports, the exact moment when they start getting paid money.

It is always about money and it's what keeping the sports industry and any other industry moving that involves professionals and becoming better and better as the years passed. These big names in any given sport will surely not play this long if it's not about money in the first place, sure they love their chosen sports because that is their passion, gotta give them that, but I doubt that it is still the same when we take out money in the equation.

I would say that it's also a good business as well, it's a profitable one. You could see the celebrities buying teams for the last decade or so, why are they doing that? Because if you buy a team, or a share of it, and then spend just a little bit money on it, then you could end up getting just a little bit success and sell it for a lot more.

Look at Michael Jordan, that dude considered to be the best player that ever played this game and he did nearly nothing from his basketball contract, but the moment he bought Hornets? He could sell that team for billions and billions now. That's how you make a profit, you buy a team for very little, and then sell it for a lot of money in the future because teams get valued higher and higher.

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Quote from: Silberman on August 29, 2023, 12:32:37 AM

Quote from: Sithara007 on August 28, 2023, 09:36:16 PM

Quote from: Leviathan.007 on August 28, 2023, 07:33:15 PM

I'm not sure how FIFA selects a country or some countries to host the World Cup because sometimes just like the Qatar World Cup, they could select many other teams.
However the last World Cup was during the covid crisis but still, I think there could be much better options than Qatar.
But this time America is the best option they could ever have because they hosted the World Cup before.

I have posted this before. The decision to grant the hosting rights to Qatar for the 2022 world cup was a grave mistake from the part of FIFA. There were issues related to poor treatment being meted out to the construction workers, as well as issues regarding discrimination against certain sections of the visitors. Even in 2018, Russia hosted the tournament without any major issues. But that was not the case with Qatar in 2022. Hopefully the 2026 edition would be an occasion where the visitors and fans are treated with respect.

I hope this is the case as this was the most common complain fans had about the Qatar world cup, however there are things that could easily go wrong, the public security at Mexico is low and fans could face some dangers if going there, and while the US will host most of the games there could be some issues there as well, as visas could be difficult to get if migratory laws get harsher and the possibility of an attack against the stadiums will always be there.

People should know about that already because we cannot just expect that the US will lower their security just because they are hosting a world cup and are expecting a flock of people around the world. It's not just about World Cup because the security of the country itself needs protection and so we expect them to be more strict because after every games, they can't just follow every tourist as that will just be a total waste of resources and that is also impossible to do.

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Quote from: Sithara007 on August 28, 2023, 09:36:16 PM

Quote from: Leviathan.007 on August 28, 2023, 07:33:15 PM

I'm not sure how FIFA selects a country or some countries to host the World Cup because sometimes just like the Qatar World Cup, they could select many other teams.
However the last World Cup was during the covid crisis but still, I think there could be much better options than Qatar.
But this time America is the best option they could ever have because they hosted the World Cup before.

I have posted this before. The decision to grant the hosting rights to Qatar for the 2022 world cup was a grave mistake from the part of FIFA. There were issues related to poor treatment being meted out to the construction workers, as well as issues regarding discrimination against certain sections of the visitors. Even in 2018, Russia hosted the tournament without any major issues. But that was not the case with Qatar in 2022. Hopefully the 2026 edition would be an occasion where the visitors and fans are treated with respect.

I hope this is the case as this was the most common complain fans had about the Qatar world cup, however there are things that could easily go wrong, the public security at Mexico is low and fans could face some dangers if going there, and while the US will host most of the games there could be some issues there as well, as visas could be difficult to get if migratory laws get harsher and the possibility of an attack against the stadiums will always be there.

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Quote from: Leviathan.007 on August 28, 2023, 07:33:15 PM

I'm not sure how FIFA selects a country or some countries to host the World Cup because sometimes just like the Qatar World Cup, they could select many other teams.
However the last World Cup was during the covid crisis but still, I think there could be much better options than Qatar.
But this time America is the best option they could ever have because they hosted the World Cup before.

I have posted this before. The decision to grant the hosting rights to Qatar for the 2022 world cup was a grave mistake from the part of FIFA. There were issues related to poor treatment being meted out to the construction workers, as well as issues regarding discrimination against certain sections of the visitors. Even in 2018, Russia hosted the tournament without any major issues. But that was not the case with Qatar in 2022. Hopefully the 2026 edition would be an occasion where the visitors and fans are treated with respect.

Topic: FIFA World Cup 2026 :Canada/Mexico/United States: Discussion Thread - page 143. (Read 57610 times)