FIFA World Cup 2026 :Canada/Mexico/United States: Discussion Thread - page 254.

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Quote from: CryptocurencyKing on March 22, 2023, 01:42:56 AM

Quote from: swogerino on March 21, 2023, 02:36:05 AM

Quote from: CryptocurencyKing on March 21, 2023, 01:49:38 AM

Kylian Mbappé has been appointed as the new captain of the French national team. I don’t really know how I feel about this appointment considering the fact that they’re other eligible candidates like Antoine Griezmann and Oliver Giroud who has been in the team for quiet a long time. But I also understand that its not just Coach’s decision. Players also have a voice on who should lead them. He has been phenomenal for France lately, but giving him the armband is too much even for him. I feel there are other old and experience players in the team.

I think that he is the best player for France and it was thanks to him that France got to the penalties in the final against Argentina this last world cup as without him France would have probably not even a shot on goal on that game.Things have changed now and despite the old players being usually captains now there is a new trend which the captain usually becomes the best player of the team and I think France has made the right decision to appoint Mbappe as their captain.He surely is one of the most talented players in the world and he fully deserve this title despite his young age.

Yeah. That's mbappes team. It has been since he won that first world cup for the France national team. I’m not surprised they gave it to him. I remember what he did, how he displayed a leadership quality in the dressing room during the half time when France was loosing at the just concluded world Cup. Also looking at longevity, I think Mbappe as the captain has a lengthy time to play than the others so it’s a good reason to give him the Armband.

Mbappe performance in this world cup will be remembered for z long time as he fought like a single warrior for his team and scored goals plus penalties for France. He definitely deserve this captaincy for his game and he'll surely bring more wins for his team.

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Quote from: Leviathan.007 on March 22, 2023, 06:36:49 AM

Quote from: Sithara007 on March 21, 2023, 09:20:06 PM

Quote from: shogun47 on March 21, 2023, 02:27:55 PM

~~~
At the same time what are the chances that Haaland is ever going to win a World Cup title? It's also a lot of luck whether you are French these days or Norwegian. Let's assume Mbappe and Haaland ever meet in a huge final with their national teams, I think Haaland bringing his team into the final would be worth more than Mbappe taking France into a final.
~~~

I don't want Håland to become another Goran Pandeev. He is still young (22 years old) and hopefully with the increase in the number of participants for the 2026 World Cup, Norway will be able to participate in the tournament. BTW, he was born in Leeds, England. So technically he is eligible to represent England, if I am not wrong (not sure about his citizenship though, although it should not be a tough task for him to get a British passport). Jokes apart, I don't think that Håland is interested at least a little bit in moving out of Norway.

We cannot judge him because he is still 22 years old and too young to say what's going to happen to this player after years, Haaland is currently a citizen of Norway and if he didn't have the citizenship he couldn't play for the national team, he can achieve more goals in England if he were playing for England national team but as far as I know, he can't do that because he played for Norway in official games.

He cannot do that,once a player is federated with a team he cannot leave it and go to another team.There have been specific cases but those do not apply here,for example when Albanian players originating from Kosovo have been playing for Albania and once Kosovo become and independent country in 2008 many players got to play with Kosovo,this was a specific clause because of such non natural event like a new born country in 2008.I am afraid Norway is a well established country and this move is not permitted under special conditions,we don't know though that if Haaland would score more goals with England.

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Quote from: Sithara007 on March 21, 2023, 09:20:06 PM

Quote from: shogun47 on March 21, 2023, 02:27:55 PM

~~~
At the same time what are the chances that Haaland is ever going to win a World Cup title? It's also a lot of luck whether you are French these days or Norwegian. Let's assume Mbappe and Haaland ever meet in a huge final with their national teams, I think Haaland bringing his team into the final would be worth more than Mbappe taking France into a final.
~~~

I don't want Håland to become another Goran Pandeev. He is still young (22 years old) and hopefully with the increase in the number of participants for the 2026 World Cup, Norway will be able to participate in the tournament. BTW, he was born in Leeds, England. So technically he is eligible to represent England, if I am not wrong (not sure about his citizenship though, although it should not be a tough task for him to get a British passport). Jokes apart, I don't think that Håland is interested at least a little bit in moving out of Norway.

We cannot judge him because he is still 22 years old and too young to say what's going to happen to this player after years, Haaland is currently a citizen of Norway and if he didn't have the citizenship he couldn't play for the national team, he can achieve more goals in England if he were playing for England national team but as far as I know, he can't do that because he played for Norway in official games.

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Quote from: swogerino on March 21, 2023, 02:36:05 AM

Quote from: CryptocurencyKing on March 21, 2023, 01:49:38 AM

Kylian Mbappé has been appointed as the new captain of the French national team. I don’t really know how I feel about this appointment considering the fact that they’re other eligible candidates like Antoine Griezmann and Oliver Giroud who has been in the team for quiet a long time. But I also understand that its not just Coach’s decision. Players also have a voice on who should lead them. He has been phenomenal for France lately, but giving him the armband is too much even for him. I feel there are other old and experience players in the team.

I think that he is the best player for France and it was thanks to him that France got to the penalties in the final against Argentina this last world cup as without him France would have probably not even a shot on goal on that game.Things have changed now and despite the old players being usually captains now there is a new trend which the captain usually becomes the best player of the team and I think France has made the right decision to appoint Mbappe as their captain.He surely is one of the most talented players in the world and he fully deserve this title despite his young age.

Yeah. That's mbappes team. It has been since he won that first world cup for the France national team. I’m not surprised they gave it to him. I remember what he did, how he displayed a leadership quality in the dressing room during the half time when France was loosing at the just concluded world Cup. Also looking at longevity, I think Mbappe as the captain has a lengthy time to play than the others so it’s a good reason to give him the Armband.

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Quote from: shogun47 on March 21, 2023, 02:27:55 PM

~~~
At the same time what are the chances that Haaland is ever going to win a World Cup title? It's also a lot of luck whether you are French these days or Norwegian. Let's assume Mbappe and Haaland ever meet in a huge final with their national teams, I think Haaland bringing his team into the final would be worth more than Mbappe taking France into a final.
~~~

I don't want Håland to become another Goran Pandeev. He is still young (22 years old) and hopefully with the increase in the number of participants for the 2026 World Cup, Norway will be able to participate in the tournament. BTW, he was born in Leeds, England. So technically he is eligible to represent England, if I am not wrong (not sure about his citizenship though, although it should not be a tough task for him to get a British passport). Jokes apart, I don't think that Håland is interested at least a little bit in moving out of Norway.

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Quote from: nullama on March 21, 2023, 05:19:48 PM

Quote from: rdluffy on March 21, 2023, 04:18:25 PM

~snip~
Sorry if I didn't express myself well, but what I most want to say with my post is that basically with more teams participating in the 2026 Cup, there are many more chances for great players to participate, regardless of their age.
There are some teams that have 1 or 2 exceptional players, who are successful in their clubs, are among the best in the world, but their teammates don't have the same level and can't qualify for the world cup.

I have other examples like Salah / Egypt, Alexis Sanchez and Vidal / Chile, all of whom did not play in 2022, and for sure many people would have liked to see them play in the world cup.
This is a strong point of the increase of teams for 2026.

And I go a little further than I am talking about, but on the same subject.
I have been thinking, and I believe that we will have 6 new teams that have never played a world cup, that will be present in 2026.
It is a little early to think exactly which teams they will be, but this year we can already have an idea.
Soon I will make a table to try to identify and predict who these teams will be hehehe.

Alexis Sanchez is already 34 years old, and Arturo Vidal is 35. Might as well bring back Ivan Zamorano Grin

Regarding Alexis Sanchez and Chile, he scored two goals recently for Marseille in the French league and he performed very well but I'm sure after three years when the world cup started he can't even run with the same speed as he does right now, I think instead of being worry bout players like Sanchez and Vidal the teams should start working on young players and next generation to make them ready for the next world cup.

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Quote from: rdluffy on March 21, 2023, 04:18:25 PM

~snip~
Sorry if I didn't express myself well, but what I most want to say with my post is that basically with more teams participating in the 2026 Cup, there are many more chances for great players to participate, regardless of their age.
There are some teams that have 1 or 2 exceptional players, who are successful in their clubs, are among the best in the world, but their teammates don't have the same level and can't qualify for the world cup.

I have other examples like Salah / Egypt, Alexis Sanchez and Vidal / Chile, all of whom did not play in 2022, and for sure many people would have liked to see them play in the world cup.
This is a strong point of the increase of teams for 2026.

And I go a little further than I am talking about, but on the same subject.
I have been thinking, and I believe that we will have 6 new teams that have never played a world cup, that will be present in 2026.
It is a little early to think exactly which teams they will be, but this year we can already have an idea.
Soon I will make a table to try to identify and predict who these teams will be hehehe.

Alexis Sanchez is already 34 years old, and Arturo Vidal is 35. Might as well bring back Ivan Zamorano Grin

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Quote from: bitgolden on March 20, 2023, 02:48:05 PM

I think that has been talked about, in a way that we assumed it would be mainly young kids though. Because if you are already 30 years old or something then even when you played in world cup, and even if you play very well, that doesn't change the fact that you won't be really considered for a big club.

However, if you end up playing at 22 years or something like that, basically under 25 years old is fine, and you play amazingly in any world cup, that should be getting attentions from some big clubs and you could become a star. Sometimes that's all it takes, I believe that we should be able to see some players in right situations and they suddenly shine bigger.

Sorry if I didn't express myself well, but what I most want to say with my post is that basically with more teams participating in the 2026 Cup, there are many more chances for great players to participate, regardless of their age.
There are some teams that have 1 or 2 exceptional players, who are successful in their clubs, are among the best in the world, but their teammates don't have the same level and can't qualify for the world cup.

I have other examples like Salah / Egypt, Alexis Sanchez and Vidal / Chile, all of whom did not play in 2022, and for sure many people would have liked to see them play in the world cup.
This is a strong point of the increase of teams for 2026.

And I go a little further than I am talking about, but on the same subject.
I have been thinking, and I believe that we will have 6 new teams that have never played a world cup, that will be present in 2026.
It is a little early to think exactly which teams they will be, but this year we can already have an idea.
Soon I will make a table to try to identify and predict who these teams will be hehehe.

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Quote from: Silberman on March 21, 2023, 01:57:15 PM

Quote from: Sithara007 on March 20, 2023, 09:25:58 PM

Quote from: romero121 on March 20, 2023, 06:46:20 PM

The passion for football never goes down, but the fitness is the one that makes things work in favour of his passion. These players will keep up the fitness level high, but age really matters when the young players enter. Ronaldo can make tricks and his technical games, but to stand level to the young ones into the team will be hard for him. This is just an assumption, we don't know how young is his mind for the upcoming World Cup. As said playing for the clubs is different from playing for the nation. The legendary ones preparing the young ones for the world cup will be more interesting than their participation.

Nowadays age is mostly a psychological thing. Medical technology has advanced so much, and trainers are able to keep players away from wear and tear for extended durations. I have watched Ronaldo playing for Al Nassr in the Saudi Professional League recently. At no point I got an impression that he is getting aged. But the Portugal national team coach, as well as those in Manchester United used this excuse to mistreat him. In the end, he got fed up and decided to pack his bags and move to somewhere he is valued more.

What happens is that coaches and owners have failed to adapt to the new realities of training and medical science, in almost every sport we are seeing that athletes are performing at their peak for a longer period of time and they can slow down dramatically the rate at which they lose their skills with proper training and care, but coaches and owners are using previous data to try to pay less to their players or to discard them, and while it is true that no matter what a professional athlete does as at some point their skills will fade, we must recognize that older players can still give great performances.

Yes but as much as it makes sense to speak about those who are getting older and older and are still playing, they also get a lot younger when they start into their professional career.

But I dislike the general discussion about a player only being among the best in the world when he won the World Cup. What if Messi retreated because of an injury at ager 34? Would that have made him worse player? He just won the title at age 35.

At the same time what are the chances that Haaland is ever going to win a World Cup title? It's also a lot of luck whether you are French these days or Norwegian. Let's assume Mbappe and Haaland ever meet in a huge final with their national teams, I think Haaland bringing his team into the final would be worth more than Mbappe taking France into a final.

Regarding the next World Cup I wonder if we are going to see Messi/ and or Ronaldo participate. Both haven't retreated yet from their national teams and Messi would be 38 by then, which isn't impossible to still play as we have seen a couple of times. Messi is already holding the world record with 26 appearances if front of Matthäus with 25. I think Messi is going to try and go for it and extend it even further.

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Quote from: Sithara007 on March 20, 2023, 09:25:58 PM

Quote from: romero121 on March 20, 2023, 06:46:20 PM

The passion for football never goes down, but the fitness is the one that makes things work in favour of his passion. These players will keep up the fitness level high, but age really matters when the young players enter. Ronaldo can make tricks and his technical games, but to stand level to the young ones into the team will be hard for him. This is just an assumption, we don't know how young is his mind for the upcoming World Cup. As said playing for the clubs is different from playing for the nation. The legendary ones preparing the young ones for the world cup will be more interesting than their participation.

Nowadays age is mostly a psychological thing. Medical technology has advanced so much, and trainers are able to keep players away from wear and tear for extended durations. I have watched Ronaldo playing for Al Nassr in the Saudi Professional League recently. At no point I got an impression that he is getting aged. But the Portugal national team coach, as well as those in Manchester United used this excuse to mistreat him. In the end, he got fed up and decided to pack his bags and move to somewhere he is valued more.

What happens is that coaches and owners have failed to adapt to the new realities of training and medical science, in almost every sport we are seeing that athletes are performing at their peak for a longer period of time and they can slow down dramatically the rate at which they lose their skills with proper training and care, but coaches and owners are using previous data to try to pay less to their players or to discard them, and while it is true that no matter what a professional athlete does as at some point their skills will fade, we must recognize that older players can still give great performances.

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Quote from: CryptocurencyKing on March 21, 2023, 01:49:38 AM

Kylian Mbappé has been appointed as the new captain of the French national team. I don’t really know how I feel about this appointment considering the fact that they’re other eligible candidates like Antoine Griezmann and Oliver Giroud who has been in the team for quiet a long time. But I also understand that its not just Coach’s decision. Players also have a voice on who should lead them. He has been phenomenal for France lately, but giving him the armband is too much even for him. I feel there are other old and experience players in the team.

IMO, it doesn't matter who is the captain in a team. most importantly, he can be a good leader during match sessions and during training, both on the field and in the locker room. because, his role will be very central to his teammates. plus, takes responsibility for his teammates.

If Mbappe fulfills these requirements, then he deserves the title of captain. but if we refer to Mbappe's attitude, it seems that he is not fit to be the leader of a team. and I agree with what you said, that Antonio Griezman who deserves to be the captain of the French national team. but usually, the appointment of a captain in a team is the responsibility of the coach. because he was given the trust to be the team leader. perhaps, the appointment of captain to Mbappe was none other than his contribution during the Qatar 2022 world cup. that is why, Mbappe was appointed as the leader of the French national team. by the way, if that's the case. there is nothing wrong with that, maybe with him being appointed as team captain, his attitude and selfishness will change a lot. well, so we'll just take it from the positive value.

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Quote from: Leviathan.007 on March 21, 2023, 04:41:51 AM

Zlatan Ibrahimovic is an exception. However, even regarding Ibrahimovic, he is still not fresh as his young days when he was under 30 obviously his performance is not the same as his young days but he still can play in a professional team and score goals as a forward, it depends on their style and physical power that's why we can't say there should be the same situation for Ronaldo and Messi at 41.

I still think that he is not just "not good as he used to be" but not good enough for anything at all. If I was the manager or owner of a club, I wouldn't even consider spending that much money on him, makes absolutely no sense at all. Him being a good player was a long gone thing and right now he is not that good, not even for Milan level at least.

He could go ahead and play in the Saudi league along with Ronaldo if he wants to, but I wouldn't put him on my team. He literally missed over half of the year with injury and Milan was still fine about paying him the highest salary, that never made any sense to me at all, it is a big waste of money and they could have bought some other player for it.

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Quote from: Patrol69 on March 20, 2023, 09:24:27 PM

Quote from: gagux123 on March 20, 2023, 04:48:45 PM

Guys, after reading your comments, I also imagine that the performance of Cristiano Ronaldo and Messi will decrease, that's a fact, it's the law of nature.
What we don't know is how much their performance will drop...

Yes I do believe that age is a very important factor for playing football. However, the idea that football cannot be played if you are old is wrong. The game depends a lot on one's skill, fitness and mental strength. Currently, Messi is 35 years old and Ronaldo is 38 years old. In 2026 World Cup, Messi will be 39 years old and Ronaldo will be 42 years old. If they can maintain their performances at the club level and if they work on their fitness then I don't think age will be a hindrance for them in the upcoming World Cup. And Cristiano Ronaldo is always worried about his fitness and he takes good care of himself. So we can expect Messi and Ronaldo to win the World Cup together again in the next World Cup.

Quote from: gagux123 on March 20, 2023, 04:48:45 PM

An example of this... LeBron James, he will be 39 years old at the end of this year, and incredible as it may seem, he is still considered one of the best players in the NBA. His athleticism and his genetics is something formidable, I have no doubt that LJ will still be able to play in the Olympics defending the USA (but i don't think that can happen)

Zlatan Ibrahimovic is 41 years old now but his fitness doesn't look like he is 41 now. At this age he got a call up to play for Sweden's national team. Age is just a number. Age does not affect the game if you maintain your fitness.

Zlatan Ibrahimovic is an exception. However, even regarding Ibrahimovic, he is still not fresh as his young days when he was under 30 obviously his performance is not the same as his young days but he still can play in a professional team and score goals as a forward, it depends on their style and physical power that's why we can't say there should be the same situation for Ronaldo and Messi at 41.

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Quote from: CryptocurencyKing on March 21, 2023, 01:49:38 AM

Kylian Mbappé has been appointed as the new captain of the French national team. I don’t really know how I feel about this appointment considering the fact that they’re other eligible candidates like Antoine Griezmann and Oliver Giroud who has been in the team for quiet a long time. But I also understand that its not just Coach’s decision. Players also have a voice on who should lead them. He has been phenomenal for France lately, but giving him the armband is too much even for him. I feel there are other old and experience players in the team.

Not sure whether Antoine Griezmann and Giroud are going to welcome this decision, but Mbappé completely deserves this. He was exceptional during Qatar 2022. And he represents the future for France. What is the point in making someone in their mid-30s the captain? In that case after a few years, again they need to search for the new captain. In case of Mbappé, he is already captaining a very high-quality side (Paris Saint-Germain F.C.). Captaining the French national team is not going to be too much of a challenge for him.

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Quote from: CryptocurencyKing on March 21, 2023, 01:49:38 AM

Kylian Mbappé has been appointed as the new captain of the French national team. I don’t really know how I feel about this appointment considering the fact that they’re other eligible candidates like Antoine Griezmann and Oliver Giroud who has been in the team for quiet a long time. But I also understand that its not just Coach’s decision. Players also have a voice on who should lead them. He has been phenomenal for France lately, but giving him the armband is too much even for him. I feel there are other old and experience players in the team.

I think that he is the best player for France and it was thanks to him that France got to the penalties in the final against Argentina this last world cup as without him France would have probably not even a shot on goal on that game.Things have changed now and despite the old players being usually captains now there is a new trend which the captain usually becomes the best player of the team and I think France has made the right decision to appoint Mbappe as their captain.He surely is one of the most talented players in the world and he fully deserve this title despite his young age.

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Kylian Mbappé has been appointed as the new captain of the French national team. I don’t really know how I feel about this appointment considering the fact that they’re other eligible candidates like Antoine Griezmann and Oliver Giroud who has been in the team for quiet a long time. But I also understand that its not just Coach’s decision. Players also have a voice on who should lead them. He has been phenomenal for France lately, but giving him the armband is too much even for him. I feel there are other old and experience players in the team.

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Quote from: Patrol69 on March 20, 2023, 09:24:27 PM

Quote from: gagux123 on March 20, 2023, 04:48:45 PM

Guys, after reading your comments, I also imagine that the performance of Cristiano Ronaldo and Messi will decrease, that's a fact, it's the law of nature.
What we don't know is how much their performance will drop...

Yes I do believe that age is a very important factor for playing football. However, the idea that football cannot be played if you are old is wrong. The game depends a lot on one's skill, fitness and mental strength. Currently, Messi is 35 years old and Ronaldo is 38 years old. In 2026 World Cup, Messi will be 39 years old and Ronaldo will be 42 years old. If they can maintain their performances at the club level and if they work on their fitness then I don't think age will be a hindrance for them in the upcoming World Cup. And Cristiano Ronaldo is always worried about his fitness and he takes good care of himself. So we can expect Messi and Ronaldo to win the World Cup together again in the next World Cup.

Quote from: gagux123 on March 20, 2023, 04:48:45 PM

An example of this... LeBron James, he will be 39 years old at the end of this year, and incredible as it may seem, he is still considered one of the best players in the NBA. His athleticism and his genetics is something formidable, I have no doubt that LJ will still be able to play in the Olympics defending the USA (but i don't think that can happen)

Zlatan Ibrahimovic is 41 years old now but his fitness doesn't look like he is 41 now. At this age he got a call up to play for Sweden's national team. Age is just a number. Age does not affect the game if you maintain your fitness.

Yes, that's a fact, because age is completely relative, there are 35-year-olds, 36-year-olds, 38-year-olds for example, who play much better than many younger players.

Well, I'm pretty sure that if Messi or Cristiano Ronaldo are called up by the national team to compete in the world cup in 2026, their performance will not be at the level it is today, especially in terms of their physique (strength, explosion , speed, thrust and other pertinent attributes)

Regarding Ibrahimovic, he is still a good player, but he is far from his prime.
He plays very well, but his physique and his history of injuries is a negative point for him, I believe that this is a sign that his body is no longer the same, especially over 40 years old

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Quote from: romero121 on March 20, 2023, 06:46:20 PM

The passion for football never goes down, but the fitness is the one that makes things work in favour of his passion. These players will keep up the fitness level high, but age really matters when the young players enter. Ronaldo can make tricks and his technical games, but to stand level to the young ones into the team will be hard for him. This is just an assumption, we don't know how young is his mind for the upcoming World Cup. As said playing for the clubs is different from playing for the nation. The legendary ones preparing the young ones for the world cup will be more interesting than their participation.

Nowadays age is mostly a psychological thing. Medical technology has advanced so much, and trainers are able to keep players away from wear and tear for extended durations. I have watched Ronaldo playing for Al Nassr in the Saudi Professional League recently. At no point I got an impression that he is getting aged. But the Portugal national team coach, as well as those in Manchester United used this excuse to mistreat him. In the end, he got fed up and decided to pack his bags and move to somewhere he is valued more.

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Quote from: gagux123 on March 20, 2023, 04:48:45 PM

Guys, after reading your comments, I also imagine that the performance of Cristiano Ronaldo and Messi will decrease, that's a fact, it's the law of nature.
What we don't know is how much their performance will drop...

Yes I do believe that age is a very important factor for playing football. However, the idea that football cannot be played if you are old is wrong. The game depends a lot on one's skill, fitness and mental strength. Currently, Messi is 35 years old and Ronaldo is 38 years old. In 2026 World Cup, Messi will be 39 years old and Ronaldo will be 42 years old. If they can maintain their performances at the club level and if they work on their fitness then I don't think age will be a hindrance for them in the upcoming World Cup. And Cristiano Ronaldo is always worried about his fitness and he takes good care of himself. So we can expect Messi and Ronaldo to win the World Cup together again in the next World Cup.

Quote from: gagux123 on March 20, 2023, 04:48:45 PM

An example of this... LeBron James, he will be 39 years old at the end of this year, and incredible as it may seem, he is still considered one of the best players in the NBA. His athleticism and his genetics is something formidable, I have no doubt that LJ will still be able to play in the Olympics defending the USA (but i don't think that can happen)

Zlatan Ibrahimovic is 41 years old now but his fitness doesn't look like he is 41 now. At this age he got a call up to play for Sweden's national team. Age is just a number. Age does not affect the game if you maintain your fitness.

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Quote from: romero121 on March 20, 2023, 06:46:20 PM

~snip~
The passion for football never goes down, but the fitness is the one that makes things work in favour of his passion. These players will keep up the fitness level high, but age really matters when the young players enter. Ronaldo can make tricks and his technical games, but to stand level to the young ones into the team will be hard for him. This is just an assumption, we don't know how young is his mind for the upcoming World Cup. As said playing for the clubs is different from playing for the nation. The legendary ones preparing the young ones for the world cup will be more interesting than their participation.

Absolutely.

Quote from: https://builtforathletes.com/blogs/news/what-age-do-athletes-peak

For sprints, jumps, and throws, men and women hit their peak around 25 years of age

The current age of Mbappe is 24 years old, and it shows. Messi is 35 years old, and Christiano Ronaldo is 38. We saw that difference in the world cup very clearly.

Topic: FIFA World Cup 2026 :Canada/Mexico/United States: Discussion Thread - page 254. (Read 62712 times)