FinCEN addresses Bitcoin - page 11. | Bitcointalksearch.org

bitlizard

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Quote from: evoorhees on March 18, 2013, 07:43:00 PM

Quote from: bitlizard on March 18, 2013, 07:38:59 PM

Quote from: ?? on ??

This is pretty much the best news regarding bitcoin we could have gotten from the government.

Are you out of your fucking mind???

No I agree, it is the best news US peoples could have hoped for. Bitcoin is now explicitly legal and will be regulated like real money (we knew it was already real money, but now the "normal business community" will as well). I've long said that Amazon will not accept Bitcoin until the legal uncertainty is removed. This just removed it.

There is good and bad in this news, but the net effect is extremely good. Bitcoin demolishes all resistance, and just entered the next phase of its evolution.

I understand why people might think this is a good thing, we all knew it was inevitable so I guess I shouldn't be too surprised. Right now we know very little about the scope and or future enforcement of whatever regulation is being cooked up. What I think we do know very well is that, bitcoin and government don't really mix. At all.

TheButterZone

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RIP Mommy

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Everything_which_is_not_forbidden_is_allowed

Everything which is specifically allowed will ultimately be regulated out of the hands of the common man via protectionist, pro-monopoly, anti-economic liberty "legal" requirements in the form of licensing, insurance, etc... ad nauseam. Not even a Constitutional Amendment can save anything, as long as the fed courts bend over backward to please tyrants.

Don't get the $1000 threshold mixed up with the BTC>USD definition. Exchange a SINGLE PENNY for your BTC without fulfilling the requirements, and you're a criminal.

It's like saying "since there was no specific declaration that exhaling CO2 was legal, it's great news that the government has now affirmed it is, subject to your paying carbon credits."

FTFY

jgarzik

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With the standard "I Am Not A Lawyer" disclaimer, my read is that miners might be ok if

They sell bitcoins for fiat, via a licensed exchange
They purchase goods and services entirely within the bitcoin economy

The first is obvious. The US government is certainly within their rights to regulate the US Dollar, and ditto for other government fiat currencies.

The second is vastly positive. Stimulative for the bitcoin economy, encouraging a broad market of services priced in bitcoins.

And the third, more general point is implied: bitcoins are legal for regular users to possess and spend.

It is true that bitcoins were never illegal, but having a big government issuing an affirmative statement "bitcoins are legal" (in effect) is great news.

Paladin69

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Quote from: malevolent on March 18, 2013, 07:11:04 PM

Not yet.

Paladin69

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Quote from: Technomage on March 18, 2013, 07:29:02 PM

1 million? That is quite expensive. As far as I know that license in Finland costs like 5000 EUR, which our company is prepared to pay if this ruling spreads to Finland. Not sure how much these licenses cost for the whole EU though.

For mining though, I will venture to guess that people will simply not report any of it from now on. If the coins are mixed, there is no way to really know where the coins came from.

And now that you pay for the license, they know who you are and will pester you until the end of time as they keep changing the law to benefit them so they can take more from you.

SBC

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One interesting side effect of this is it seems likely that all the 'anonymous' fiat<->Bitcoin services that have sprung up are going to have to start being significantly more nosy about who they do business with...

Severian

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Maybe I'm just getting cyncial in my old age, but all I see is the billy club they just made for themselves to swing at anyone of us or all of us if they ever see Bitcoin as an economic threat.

Some of my favorite illegal things started out by being "regulated" first before they were banned.

repentance

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Quote from: hazek on March 18, 2013, 07:48:44 PM

Quote from: evoorhees on March 18, 2013, 07:43:00 PM

There is good and bad in this news, but the net effect is extremely good. Bitcoin demolishes all resistance, and just entered the next phase of its evolution.

I just wonder how miners will cope with this news. Technically they could just buy gold and silver and sell that to avoid needed a license.. but still..

In some places, once you trade a certain volume of precious metals you're subject to AML/CFT regulations and need to register and report just like you'd need to if you were providing a financial services.

This news from FinSEC is less about virtual currencies and Bitcoin than it is about the services which have grown up around them. It makes abundantly clear that those services will be subject to regulation - which people were pretty much expecting would be the case. It just pre-empts the possibility of another PayPal style legal battle where a particular service argues that it's non subject to financial services regulations and AML/CFT requirements.

Paladin69

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They'll keep trying to change the rules if local retailers start accepting BTC.

jgarzik

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Quote from: hazek on March 18, 2013, 07:24:11 PM

Quote from: jgarzik on March 18, 2013, 07:20:33 PM

tl;dr... bitcoins are legal

And you need a +$1million dollar worth money transmitter license if you want to mine and sell them for fiat Roll Eyes

I don't read it that way at all... assuming that the miner is selling via a licensed bitcoin exchange (MSB/MT).

Cubic Earth

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Money Services Business - The term "money services business" includes any person doing business, whether or not on a regular basis or as an organized business concern, in one or more of the following capacities:

(1) Currency dealer or exchanger.
(2) Check casher.
(3) Issuer of traveler's checks, money orders or stored value.
(4) Seller or redeemer of traveler's checks, money orders or stored value.
(5) Money transmitter.
(6) U.S. Postal Service.

An activity threshold of greater than $1,000 per person per day in one or more transactions applies to the definitions of: currency dealer or exchanger; check casher; issuer of traveler's checks, money orders or stored value; and seller or redeemer of travelers' checks, money orders or stored value. The threshold applies separately to each activity -- if the threshold is not met for the specific activity, the person engaged in that activity is not an MSB on the basis of that activity.

Source: http://www.fincen.gov/financial_institutions/msb/definitions/msb.html

So, stay below $1,000 a day and a miner should be okay?

hazek

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Quote from: evoorhees on March 18, 2013, 07:43:00 PM

There is good and bad in this news, but the net effect is extremely good. Bitcoin demolishes all resistance, and just entered the next phase of its evolution.

I just wonder how miners will cope with this news. Technically they could just buy gold and silver and sell that to avoid needed a license.. but still..

David M

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Quote from: dree12 on March 18, 2013, 07:41:49 PM

You act as if this is a bad thing.

I have had no issues (and no special paperwork) in my dealings with Australian government & Tax Office in regards to my businesses accepting Bitcoin before this announcement.

I cannot say the same for the future thanks to our FTA with the yanks.

SBC

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Quote from: johnyj on March 18, 2013, 07:32:09 PM

There will be better exchanges appear in bahamas and virgin island

Not really sure how well that's going to work out. Although those territories are outside of US jurisdiction, fiat funds wired to US bank accounts would not be. Unless you either launder the money through third party countries (which requires wealth and contacts), or you maintain your entire life in crypto-currencies - you'll fall foul of the regulation.

The problem is much as we all love Bitcoin (it is awesome), it's a) still not a mass market technology and b) now likely to face heavy commercial resistance from the entrenched monopolies (e.g. Mastercard, Visa) as a consequence of this ruling. As a result it's not likely to replace the Dollar, Euro, Yuan etc - physically or electronically - anytime soon a unit of transaction in day-to-day life. That of course is unless you go specifically out of your way to pay for your life with Bitcoins (or other crypto-currencies)... which the average person won't do.

gweedo

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Quote from: d'aniel on March 18, 2013, 07:40:15 PM

Quote from: gweedo on March 18, 2013, 07:37:23 PM

See some people have not contacted lawyers before jumping into bitcoin businesses, if you contacted your lawyer before doing business in bitcoin, you would know it was always legal.

It's about the law going forward. Nobody had any certainty about that before. Jesus, you're such a fucking buzzkill

Quote from: ufmace on March 18, 2013, 07:42:37 PM

Quote from: gweedo on March 18, 2013, 07:30:29 PM

Quote from: niko on March 18, 2013, 07:28:35 PM

Quote from: d'aniel on March 18, 2013, 07:22:27 PM

Quote from: jgarzik on March 18, 2013, 07:20:33 PM

tl;dr... bitcoins are legal

Yeah, I've been jumping with joy for the past 10 minutes

I also see this as a positive development, especially in the long run.

When was bitcoins ever illegal? LMAO I was jumping for joy over 2 years ago when I got into bitcoins, cause they were never illegal.

They've been a legal gray area since they were created. We've always known that the Government would get into regulating them someday, but nobody knew what form that regulation would take. They could be all but ignored or they could do their level best to squash it like a bug. I believe this is a good sign in that it seems to be pretty light regulation and provides some security - the more official recognition Bitcoin gets, the less likely the Government is to try to crush it.

Another two people who never talked to a lawyer before getting into bitcoin, it isn't a buzzkill, if the news was the other way, I be very sad, but we are talking about something that must people already knew. Bitcoins are legal, and if your exchanging a high volume of them get your wallet out and license up. Nothing new here.

matonis

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Quote from: lonelyminer (Peter Šurda) on March 18, 2013, 07:23:52 PM

Well, the way I read it:

Quote from: FinCEN

An administrator is a person engaged as a business in issuing (putting into circulation) a virtual currency, and who has the authority to redeem (to withdraw from circulation) such virtual currency.

emphasis added

While it is possible to "destroy" Bitcoin units, nobody has the authority to redeem it. So there is no such thing as "administrator" of Bitcoin.

Unfortunately, there is no silver bullet in the law. The law will be adjusted if the nuance of bitcoin doesn't fit the "redeem" and "administrator" paradigm. The goal is to bring exchangers directly under the MSB and MT regulations. No more casual preemptive compliance like Bitinstant because it will be required and they did it without declaring bitcoin real currency.

Also, a decentralized convertible virtual currency has no single administrator as stated in the FinCEN guidance.

evoorhees

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Democracy is the original 51% attack

Quote from: bitlizard on March 18, 2013, 07:38:59 PM

Quote from: ?? on ??

This is pretty much the best news regarding bitcoin we could have gotten from the government.

Are you out of your fucking mind???

No I agree, it is the best news US peoples could have hoped for. Bitcoin is now explicitly legal and will be regulated like real money (we knew it was already real money, but now the "normal business community" will as well). I've long said that Amazon will not accept Bitcoin until the legal uncertainty is removed. This just removed it.

There is good and bad in this news, but the net effect is extremely good. Bitcoin demolishes all resistance, and just entered the next phase of its evolution.

ufmace

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Quote from: gweedo on March 18, 2013, 07:30:29 PM

Quote from: niko on March 18, 2013, 07:28:35 PM

Quote from: d'aniel on March 18, 2013, 07:22:27 PM

Quote from: jgarzik on March 18, 2013, 07:20:33 PM

tl;dr... bitcoins are legal

Yeah, I've been jumping with joy for the past 10 minutes

I also see this as a positive development, especially in the long run.

When was bitcoins ever illegal? LMAO I was jumping for joy over 2 years ago when I got into bitcoins, cause they were never illegal.

They've been a legal gray area since they were created. We've always known that the Government would get into regulating them someday, but nobody knew what form that regulation would take. They could be all but ignored or they could do their level best to squash it like a bug. I believe this is a good sign in that it seems to be pretty light regulation and provides some security - the more official recognition Bitcoin gets, the less likely the Government is to try to crush it.

dree12

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Quote from: David M on March 18, 2013, 07:40:27 PM

I don't think this has anything to do with legality.

This is about regulation: The bureaucrats weapon of choice.

You act as if this is a bad thing.

bitlizard

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Anyone who thinks this is a good thing for bitcoin is in for a rude awakening.
I had my fingers crossed that bitcoin would get much further along before this happened.

Topic: FinCEN addresses Bitcoin - page 11. (Read 28355 times)