But what about the poor dog, shoved out into that brutal heat?
He gets special allowance working as a security guard and lives next door 
Topic: First power bill for my 6 GH/s rig - page 2. (Read 10105 times)
Once upon a time, there were six 5970s calling this little house home, their poor master couldn't afford a server room; (not) surprisingly, they all survived a N400 hot summer, including a few 100+ days.
Actually they are still living there, all live and well.
http://i1133.photobucket.com/albums/m586/bitcool5/IMAG0193.jpg
Actually they are still living there, all live and well.
http://i1133.photobucket.com/albums/m586/bitcool5/IMAG0193.jpg
But what about the poor dog, shoved out into that brutal heat?
Once upon a time, there were six 5970s calling this little house home, their poor master couldn't afford a server room; (not) surprisingly, they all survived a N400 hot summer, including a few 100+ days.
Actually they are still living there, all live and well.
http://i1133.photobucket.com/albums/m586/bitcool5/IMAG0193.jpg
Epic win. No problems with rain/humidity?Actually they are still living there, all live and well.
http://i1133.photobucket.com/albums/m586/bitcool5/IMAG0193.jpg
One tower shut itself down a few times in hot afternoons, possibly caused by PSU overheat, so I converted it to a part-time worker.
Other two didn't have the issue.
FALSE.
Please show me where you are talking about his specific post. You can't because you weren't. You go on and on about how it's hard to cool things when it's hot out. I think we all get the point, nobody said it isn't harder. The point is you can do it.
Please show me where you are talking about his specific post. You can't because you weren't. You go on and on about how it's hard to cool things when it's hot out. I think we all get the point, nobody said it isn't harder. The point is you can do it.
Thanks for proving the point. I said it is more difficult. I said it takes a larger surface area. I said it takes higher airflow. Nowhere did i say it was impossible.
Your blatant and obvious lie is that I said it was impossible. Maybe you are confused but "impossible" was your strawman. You made it up just to defeat it and beat the "trolls". YOU claimed impossible so you could prove it wrong.
Once upon a time, there were six 5970s calling this little house home, their poor master couldn't afford a server room; (not) surprisingly, they all survived a N400 hot summer, including a few 100+ days.
Actually they are still living there, all live and well.
http://i1133.photobucket.com/albums/m586/bitcool5/IMAG0193.jpg
Epic win. No problems with rain/humidity? Actually they are still living there, all live and well.
http://i1133.photobucket.com/albums/m586/bitcool5/IMAG0193.jpg
Once upon a time, there were six 5970s calling this little house home, their poor master couldn't afford a server room; (not) surprisingly, they all survived a N400 hot summer, including a few 100+ days.
Actually they are still living there, all live and well.
Actually they are still living there, all live and well.
Um I did
FALSE.
Quote from: DeathAndTaxes
A long winded nothing and you missed the only point.
Car's cooling system can effectively dump the heatload because a car can operate at 200F. That is 100F OVER ambient under worst case scenario. If a car's cooling system had to keep car's internal temp at <140F then a car (as built today) would be insufficient to operate when outside temp is 100F+. If a car could operate effectively at 300F it would need a SMALLER cooling system (relative to heat load) to keep temps <300F when ambient is 100F.
Car = 200F operating temp = 100F Delta T to ambient*
GPU = <140F operating temp = <40F Delta T to ambient*
On edit:
* further and likely unecessary clarificaiton because sveetsnelda is either an idiot or a troll ...
Code:
ambient in this case would be 100F input air time. The input air time he indicates is sufficient to cool his farm. Yes it may also be cooler parts of the year but your idiotic trolling aside it wasn't your claim that you could cool the GPU with outside air when airtime if 0F your claim was you could cool them when outside airtime was 100F.
The point of the 100F vs 40F is that given 100F AMBIENT AIR TEMP it is much easier to cool something (easier as in surface area and airflow requires) when you only need to keep it at 100F OVER AMBIENT. It is much harder (as in amount of surface area and airflow required) to keep operating temps at only 40F OVER AMBIENT. Yes sveetsnelda I know what over ambient means. Maybe you forgot but your claims was you could cool GPU with 100F input air. Not sure why it is sooooooooooooooo complicated but if your are cooling something and the T-In is 100F then that is your ambient temperature. You can't cool anything below ambient without phase change so that becomes the baseline. A perfect cooling system could keep card temp at Ambient. Such a system would be massive though so the Delta over ambient determines the amount of cooling (in terms of surface area, and airflow) necessary. 40 Delta over ambient is harder to achieve than a Delta of 100F over ambient for the same heat load.
The fact that a car can operate (at 100F over ambient) doesn't prove anything. A nuclear reactor can continue to operate at 600F over ambient that doesn't mean a water cooled rig that keeps a GPU at 600F over ambient will be effective. Why do reactors run at 600F? Because the cooling system can be smaller/cheaper/more efficient than if it needed to operate at 500F, or 200F (car), or 140F (GPU).
40F Delta T is not much to work with. The smaller the Delta T the more volume necessary to transfer the same amount of thermal energy and the same surface area. If you can keep an entire farm stable 24/7 with 100F input air temps well you are better than most. My guess is you 100F temps are with low humidity? Still your stupid car analogy is just that ... stupid.
Car's cooling system can effectively dump the heatload because a car can operate at 200F. That is 100F OVER ambient under worst case scenario. If a car's cooling system had to keep car's internal temp at <140F then a car (as built today) would be insufficient to operate when outside temp is 100F+. If a car could operate effectively at 300F it would need a SMALLER cooling system (relative to heat load) to keep temps <300F when ambient is 100F.
Car = 200F operating temp = 100F Delta T to ambient*
GPU = <140F operating temp = <40F Delta T to ambient*
On edit:
* further and likely unecessary clarificaiton because sveetsnelda is either an idiot or a troll ...
Code:
ambient in this case would be 100F input air time. The input air time he indicates is sufficient to cool his farm. Yes it may also be cooler parts of the year but your idiotic trolling aside it wasn't your claim that you could cool the GPU with outside air when airtime if 0F your claim was you could cool them when outside airtime was 100F.
The point of the 100F vs 40F is that given 100F AMBIENT AIR TEMP it is much easier to cool something (easier as in surface area and airflow requires) when you only need to keep it at 100F OVER AMBIENT. It is much harder (as in amount of surface area and airflow required) to keep operating temps at only 40F OVER AMBIENT. Yes sveetsnelda I know what over ambient means. Maybe you forgot but your claims was you could cool GPU with 100F input air. Not sure why it is sooooooooooooooo complicated but if your are cooling something and the T-In is 100F then that is your ambient temperature. You can't cool anything below ambient without phase change so that becomes the baseline. A perfect cooling system could keep card temp at Ambient. Such a system would be massive though so the Delta over ambient determines the amount of cooling (in terms of surface area, and airflow) necessary. 40 Delta over ambient is harder to achieve than a Delta of 100F over ambient for the same heat load.
The fact that a car can operate (at 100F over ambient) doesn't prove anything. A nuclear reactor can continue to operate at 600F over ambient that doesn't mean a water cooled rig that keeps a GPU at 600F over ambient will be effective. Why do reactors run at 600F? Because the cooling system can be smaller/cheaper/more efficient than if it needed to operate at 500F, or 200F (car), or 140F (GPU).
40F Delta T is not much to work with. The smaller the Delta T the more volume necessary to transfer the same amount of thermal energy and the same surface area. If you can keep an entire farm stable 24/7 with 100F input air temps well you are better than most. My guess is you 100F temps are with low humidity? Still your stupid car analogy is just that ... stupid.
Please show me where you are talking about his specific post. You can't because you weren't. You go on and on about how it's hard to cool things when it's hot out. I think we all get the point, nobody said it isn't harder. The point is you can do it.
You never said "you can't cool it because the delta is too small and you only have 15 fans plus an evaporation cooler it's not enough". If you did, perhaps I would have stayed out, I can't argue with that because I don't know all the details.
Um I did and others did and then they correct you and you kept going.
The "enough airflow" as indicated was a pair of box fans. So yes with enough airflow you could cool GPU with furnace air at 130F but you certainly aren't with a box fan.
Have a nice day.
It was your post that got me into the thread, because you were posting some ridiculous crap about how the temperature delta between 110F and safe GPU operating temperature is too small. After I destroyed that argument you went on to something else.
I never claimed ANYTHING was impossible other than one can't cool 21KW of GPUs in a room with a pair of box fans in 100F ambient temps.
Nothing else. I claimed the car analogy was bad because cars operate at temps that would destroy a GPU.
See that is what a strawman is. You construct a false argument and then "defeat it".
Your strawman: cooling GPU given an infinite amount of airflow in 110F is impossible (claim never made by anyone)
Your "victory": AH HA got you trolls. Given ENOUGH airflow you can cool GPUs to x deg in 110F ambient temps.
Everyone else:
WTF? No really WTF? Is he high or something? I don't know maybe he didn't take his meds today.Try re-reading the thread. Given you only NOW just realized what the claim being refuted was it is easy to see how you were off in your own universe making arguments and counterarguments on a topic only you were debating.
Quote
I do know there is nothing that makes it impossible to air cool a GPU down to 80C when the ambient temp is 43C.
OK. I never said otherwise. Starting to get the concept of a strawman?
Just two window fans, allegedly.
An evaporative cooler is not a compressor AC. One fan per rig is circulating air within the space, the two window fans provide cross-ventilation.
You really can't see a difference between these two statements? First you come out saying it's just two fans. Now you say it's just two fans, plus another fan per rig, and an evaporation cooler.
Slightly different situations, aren't they? It's hard to take you seriously when you lie or mislead so much before I come in and correct you on the facts.
No, I cannot see the difference. Moving air within a confined space does not dissipate heat. Cross ventilation, however, does. See, those fans on each rig...they are a local phenomena, and the two window fans driving the cross-flow are the only things significantly affecting the dissipation of heat. Or are you arguing that pointing a fan at a 21.5kW heat source in a closed space will cool the space?
Just put me on ignore, brother. I am already the king of it.
Congrats you winz the interents.
Thanks. Now go back and read the thread. I never said the things you say I said. It was your post that got me into the thread, because you were posting some ridiculous crap about how the temperature delta between 110F and safe GPU operating temperature is too small. After I destroyed that argument you went on to something else.
You never said "you can't cool it because the delta is too small and you only have 15 fans plus an evaporation cooler it's not enough". If you did, perhaps I would have stayed out, I can't argue with that because I don't know all the details.
I do know there is nothing that makes it impossible to air cool a GPU down to 80C when the ambient temp is 43C.
Just two window fans, allegedly.
An evaporative cooler is not a compressor AC. One fan per rig is circulating air within the space, the two window fans provide cross-ventilation.
You really can't see a difference between these two statements? First you come out saying it's just two fans. Now you say it's just two fans, plus another fan per rig, and an evaporation cooler.
Slightly different situations, aren't they? It's hard to take you seriously when you lie or mislead so much before I come in and correct you on the facts.
The funny thing is the author of the asinine claim has backed away (not refuting it but certainly not defending it). You just kept going on and on calling people trolls and saying they were changing the topic, defending something that you hadn't even read.
READ MORE & RANT LESS.
Uh, no. The claims I have been arguing against and the things I have been "defending" didn't include this post. This is the first time I've responded to a post talking about that specific situation.
For all I know the exact situation could be BS, which I why I asked for more details, but it doesn't change the basic point- can you cool a GPU with sufficient airflow in 110F air? Yes you can.
And? You jumped in when people claimed the setup described above was implausible.
It would be like:
Kid #1: I can go to the moon for $8.
Various Kids: Impossible, not even close, etc
chiropteran: Hey trolls it is possible.
Various kids:
WTF?(50 worthless post later)
chiropteran: See I was right. You can get to the moon given ENOUGH money.
In related news chiropteran most of the time you can (fill in blank) given enough (fill in blank). It is kinda useless claim.
Quote
but it doesn't change the basic point- can you cool a GPU with sufficient airflow in 110F air?
That was never the basic claim in anyones mind except yours. Generally that is called a strawman. Make up your own weak defense so you can defeat it.
Congrats you winz the interents.
The funny thing is the author of the asinine claim has backed away (not refuting it but certainly not defending it). You just kept going on and on calling people trolls and saying they were changing the topic, defending something that you hadn't even read.
READ MORE & RANT LESS.
Uh, no. The claims I have been arguing against and the things I have been "defending" didn't include this post. This is the first time I've responded to a post talking about that specific situation.
For all I know the exact situation could be BS, which I why I asked for more details, but it doesn't change the basic point- can you cool a GPU with sufficient airflow in 110F air? Yes you can.
It blows my fucking mind how many idiots are in here arguing that two lasko 20" fans can move enough volume to sufficiently cool a 21.5kw heat source to ~70C with 100F intake air. Chiropteran, you don't seem to understand the claims at hand, nor is there any moving of the goalpost. There is no AC or massive airflow involved. Just two window fans, allegedly.
How about sveets just nuts up and posts one (1) photograph of this 21.5kw farm of his, clearly demonstrating the two window fans?
Where was this claim?
edit: You mean this post? https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.797258
What exactly is "I used a small evap cooler last year during the summer because my current layout ends up recirculating a little of the air from one rig to the next." if not an AC?
What does "standalone small household fan for each rig and 2 window fans" mean to you? 1 fan PER RIG plus window fans isn't "just two window fans". A window fan could potentially be a lot of different things, you don't have any idea how powerful it is or how much airflow it is producing.
An evaporative cooler is not a compressor AC. One fan per rig is circulating air within the space, the two window fans provide cross-ventilation. You really can't see a difference between the two?
A window fan is a window fan...a 14" MaxFan would be referred to as a 'window fan' by exactly zero people on this planet, and that's the kind of volume he needs to be moving. As I said above, I have extensive experience dissipating heat from lighting setups. You cannot evacuate 21.5kw of heat in a closed space with two window fans when the intake is at 100F.
It blows my fucking mind how many idiots are in here arguing that two lasko 20" fans can move enough volume to sufficiently cool a 21.5kw heat source to ~70C with 100F intake air. Chiropteran, you don't seem to understand the claims at hand, nor is there any moving of the goalpost. There is no AC or massive airflow involved. Just two window fans, allegedly.
How about sveets just nuts up and posts one (1) photograph of this 21.5kw farm of his, clearly demonstrating the two window fans?
Where was this claim?
edit: You mean this post? https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=67826.msg797258#msg797258
What exactly is "I used a small evap cooler last year during the summer because my current layout ends up recirculating a little of the air from one rig to the next." if not an AC?
What does "standalone small household fan for each rig and 2 window fans" mean to you? 1 fan PER RIG plus window fans isn't "just two window fans". A window fan could potentially be a lot of different things, you don't have any idea how powerful it is or how much airflow it is producing.
Evaporative cooler != AC.
Funny you spent 10 posts defending it and now pages into the thread decide to actually read what you were defending. You say people are trolling because they are blasting a claim of using 2 window fans to cool ultra high density and saying "that isn't what was claimed" and now you realize you have no idea what was claimed because you didn't read it until just now. Fans on rigs aren't going to get rid of heat. As an experiment shut all the doors and windows to a room, crank up 21KW of space heaters and use all the fans you want. Let me know how you plan to keep the temps below 120F+.
Instead of saying "hey I was an ass I had no idea what was going on" you decide to hold the line on the definition of "window fans".
LOLZ. Unless he has a 2 meter by 2 meter window one would expect window fan is 20" or less. Since 9 square feet windows are kind rare one would think that unless someone was trying to hide something would explain that. i.e. "I can cool it with 2 window fans but then again they are 72" across. j/k
" My any normal persons definition a window fan without clarifiction would be a fan one can fit in a window. 20" maybe 36" across. The funny thing is the author of the asinine claim has backed away (not refuting it but certainly not defending it). You just kept going on and on calling people trolls and saying they were changing the topic, defending something that you hadn't even read.
READ MORE & RANT LESS.
It blows my fucking mind how many idiots are in here arguing that two lasko 20" fans can move enough volume to sufficiently cool a 21.5kw heat source to ~70C with 100F intake air. Chiropteran, you don't seem to understand the claims at hand, nor is there any moving of the goalpost. There is no AC or massive airflow involved. Just two window fans, allegedly.
How about sveets just nuts up and posts one (1) photograph of this 21.5kw farm of his, clearly demonstrating the two window fans?
Where was this claim?
edit: You mean this post? https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.797258
What exactly is "I used a small evap cooler last year during the summer because my current layout ends up recirculating a little of the air from one rig to the next." if not an AC?
What does "standalone small household fan for each rig and 2 window fans" mean to you? 1 fan PER RIG plus window fans isn't "just two window fans". A window fan could potentially be a lot of different things, you don't have any idea how powerful it is or how much airflow it is producing.
You haven't bothered to look at my sig, have you? Density is key and king. Reliability is damn important as well. You might be in it as a hobby, but some folks like to make a business of it. No problem with that.
Again, you are changing the argument to get the results you want. Nobody said you could cool a super dense mining cluster in 110F summer heat. (Nobody said you can't either, but that isn't the point). If that is your situation, that you consider density the most important aspect even if it means you are throwing away efficiency and value, so be it. However, your personal limitations don't apply to the rest of the world.
Do you know what causes a lack of reliability? That's right, heat. 80 C is far too hot to be sufficiently reliable for me, and 60 is just right. "Just working" isn't good enough. Working for years without failure is what is necessary.
It's really not. Reliability in mining is largely a cost benefits analysis. All things equal, a more reliably setup is better, sure. But all things are not equal. There is a point where the money you are spending to keep your cards at 60 instead of 70 or 80 is greater than the cost of simply replacing or upgrading failing cards or systems. I'm not about to do the calculations here, but the point is an arbitrary statement that 60C is best isn't true, unless you can back it up. The guy who runs cards at 70C but saves $500/month on cooling bills could well come out ahead of you in the long run, even if he has to replace cards more often.
I have yet to see evidence of actual rigs being cooled to 60C at 90F, and as I said above 80C is completely unacceptable. Since I can't control the temperature in the summer, I may even need to maintain 60C at 110F. Using an existing air conditioning system and making it run continuously is actually more efficient than installing powerful blowers for outside air cooling, since part of the A/C isn't used for this application anyway.
I've yet to see any evidence at all from you. How do I know you aren't actually a monkey? I seriously doubt that running AC 24/7 uses less electricity than running fans 24/7, especially given the fact that AC system uses fans itself, in addition to all the electricity required for the compressors. Not going to take your word for it, sorry. Back it up with some proof.
I care. I want my cards to last forever. Is that too much to ask? 
You can have what you want, but the rest of us don't have to play by your rules. I think it's silly to try to baby your hardware that much, since the constant progress in technology means your cards are going to be slow and obsolete compared to the new things in a few years anyway. I could care less if my cards fail in 2 years, if it means I can save some money on cooling. FPGA will probably have completely replaced video card mining by then anyway
Cool, bro. You can argue semantics and provide poor analogies.
How about you just explain how 'two window fans' provide an adequate volume of air to compensate for the delta-t of 40F. You do this for a living; I'd love to see the calculations.
It's a delta-t of 65.2F. I don't run my air-cooled GPUs at 60C. I'd like the fans to last more than a few months and I don't need the GPUs to keep running for decades.How about you just explain how 'two window fans' provide an adequate volume of air to compensate for the delta-t of 40F. You do this for a living; I'd love to see the calculations.
I'm not doing your homework. Judging by your previous posts, you'd turn mine into a conspiracy theory. If you knew enough about the subject to understand the calculations one would post, you'd realize that a temperature differential of 65F isn't really THAT difficult to work with when you have a decent supply of fresh air. I'm not showing you my birth certificate either.
I grow dope and fish for a living, bro. I have no idea what volume of cross-flow you would need to dissipate 21.5kW of heat with 100F ambient temperatures, nor how to calculate it.
I can say that I have dealt with ~25kw of indoor lighting, and it took a six-ton compressor working it's ass off and fans that no one on earth would call 'window fans' even when the intake temps were in the sixties(F).
I have set up a cannabis aquaponics system, but it's too finicky, and requires too much space. Peppers get tall and kinda bulky. You will get a lot more productivity sticking with herbs and greens. Where do you live that you can't get edible fish? Tilapia are pretty easy to snag except in Florida, and they are completely fucking indestructible.
It blows my fucking mind how many idiots are in here arguing that two lasko 20" fans can move enough volume to sufficiently cool a 21.5kw heat source to ~70C with 100F intake air. Chiropteran, you don't seem to understand the claims at hand, nor is there any moving of the goalpost. There is no AC or massive airflow involved. Just two window fans, allegedly.
How about sveets just nuts up and posts one (1) photograph of this 21.5kw farm of his, clearly demonstrating the two window fans?
This isn't a data-center. The beauty of outdoor cooling is that you don't need the ridiculous density of a datacenter. You can spread things out, you don't need to stuff 20 video cards into a single tower. Also, given this is just a hobby or personal business for most of us, we are not restricted by customer contractual demands. Reliability isn't nearly as important or critical.
You haven't bothered to look at my sig, have you? Density is key and king. Reliability is damn important as well. You might be in it as a hobby, but some folks like to make a business of it. No problem with that.If I wish to cool my rigs to an acceptable temperature with a low outside ambient temp, I use an open window and no additional fans, or perhaps a small fan to direct the air to an appropriate location. If I wish to do the same in the summer, I need massive amounts of air flowing, which requires noise and power. And even then, the cards are not going to remain within a tolerance that I wish to see.
Like I said, moving the goalposts. You can cool your rigs with outside air, even in the summer. Massive amounts of air flowing? Whatever. It's all relative. If that "massive" airflow is cheaper than running the AC 24/7, it's a net gain. Noise? Power? Absoklute power is irrelevant, what matters is the relative power. If it's less power to cool via blowing air than it is to run an AC unit, the power usage is a gain, not a negative. "A tolerance that I wish to see", lovely. So it's not even about provable facts anymore, if you decide the numbers aren't good enough you get to win the argument for free? Nice try, but no. If the cards work reliably enough than who cares what rfk thinks is the correct temperature. Your wishes are not important in this discussion.Do you know what causes a lack of reliability? That's right, heat. 80 C is far too hot to be sufficiently reliable for me, and 60 is just right. "Just working" isn't good enough. Working for years without failure is what is necessary.
You can cool your rigs with ambient air at close to 90 degrees and low GPU fan speed -
Is that a small spark of intelligence? Are you finally starting to understand how heating and cooling works? If it's possible to cool down to 60C at 90F, how much harder do you think it is to cool to 80C at 110F?OK, what is the core temperature? 75, 80, 85 degrees C?
Who cares? He said it could be done, he didn't specify any particular temperature other than the general assumption that the cards were functioning. Jump to: