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Topic: Fork off - page 21. (Read 37762 times)

legendary
Activity: 1078
Merit: 1006
100 satoshis -> ISO code
January 10, 2015, 07:54:49 PM
#83
From the Gold Collapsing thread...

who knows how much further MC achievements might have been accomplished if BS core devs were spending all that time working on Bitcoin Core that they undoubtedly have been dedicating to the spvp for the last year and a half.  forget that shit and get behind Gavin and increase blocksize.  now is the time to do this.
A hard fork to increase blocksize may be needed, but the proposed exponential blocksize growth is both unnecessary and harmful to propagation of the sufficient bitcoin nodes desired for resilience.  

I'm curious to know what you (and others btw) make of Mircea Popescu and his crew's position that blocksize should not (arguably never) be increased

People who argue that the block size limit should never be increased are arguing from a position of ideology, not practicality. They want as many nodes as possible, helped by low volume overhead, thinking that limiting transaction throughput can maintain Bitcoin as a guerrilla enterprise outside mainstream finance. They want it to be the financial system for the "Unsystem".

Anyone who has read my posts for the last 2 years will know that I rail against the global corruption of central banks, their fiat FRB system, inflation targeting, interest rate manipulation, crony capitalism, asset bubbles, and stealth wealth transfers from the majority to the 0.1%. I see Bitcoin is a reset button for this 100-year mess, a river to flush out the Augean Stables of central banking. However, that river can never be diverted when it is a trickle, dammed upstream.

Answer the question "Is blockchain PoW (or its variants, perhaps even PoS) a better basis for a monetary system than the existing debt-money of CB fiat?"
If "yes", then the inexorable nature of science and technology will ensure that blockchain money prevails in the long run, 10, 20, 30 years from now. So the second question is "Will the future globally successful blockchain money be Bitcoin or some other alt coin?"

The answer to the second question is "Bitcoin, unless its first mover advantage is thrown away by an unresolved fundamental failing." Failure to scale is a fundamental failing which can consign Bitcoin forever to the margins of world finance. But, why would a marginalized Bitcoin be used even by its unsystem adherents when Darkcoin or Monero offer better anonymity?

Constraining the block size, therefore transaction volumes, ignores several important aspects of the situation:

1. The quality of nodes is much better than 5 years ago. There might have been 20,000 PCs and notebooks as nodes in 2010, cpu mining and supporting the network, but was that network better than the 6500 (known) nodes of today? Many of which are owned by companies now earning a living in the Bitcoin ecosystem. Corporate nodes are much more tolerant of volumes than hobbyist nodes.

2. Bandwidth is improving in many countries at up to 40% per year, so volume increases should be acceptable up to that level, or until another constraint is seen such as cpu signature verification. Limiting it at a 2010 baseline means it is being unnecessarily constrained as computing technology is still improving.

3. Block compression techniques exist to reduce propagation overhead. IBLT was only described in 2011, a year after Satoshi put the 1MB limit in place.

4. If Bitcoin fails to scale then I-Can-Scale-Coin will incorporate the necessary changes and the ecosystem will move across to that alt instead. Sidechains do not help with scaling because SC volume still needs to be handled somewhere.

5. Despite the long bearmarket of 2014, and price down at $290 right now, a large percentage of the price assumes that Bitcoin has future scalability. That it can grow to handle a reasonable percentage of world commerce. Its SoV is predicated upon being able to scale.

Accepting the block size limit as it stands is to do the central banks a massive favor by crippling this new emerging monetary system, giving them more years to screw up the world economy, before a new alt coin can eventually prevail.
hero member
Activity: 907
Merit: 1003
January 10, 2015, 07:54:01 PM
#82
What does Mircea Popescu have to lose by this proposed fork? It's obvious by his reaction that he feels this would be very negative for him, but why?

And I agree, Mircea's attitude and comments about his budget are a big turnoff.

That's like saying "I've lost the fight, so I'm going to go in with my wallet and buy my victory since my logic and arguments didn't prevail."

That's also how the Federal Reserve runs things. They use their control of money as their only power.

Big turn-off. And tyrannical.

Lost the fight? It's more like one guy said, "I'm gonna start validating invalid blocks for some derpy reason," and another (much more important) guy said, "alright, well I'm not gonna do that; have fun!" The fight hasn't begun yet; upvoting regurgitations from the latest gospel of derpopolous (or whoever replaced him after his death) does not constitute a fight.

Here's a glimpse of the war:
If the hard fork happens, it should be possible to cycle funds in and out of exchanges that are dumb enough to switch, splitting away real-bitcoin whenever the withdraw gives you an output that hasn't been doublespent yet. Withdraw, split, send fake-coins back into exchange, repeat. When "dust settles," exchange is now fractional reserve (if it wasn't already).

So you are an MP shill? Yes, there's a handful of you devoted followers in his IRC room.

MP def lost the intellectual battle by the brag of wealth as his last effort to win.

He invited me to his channel once and I spoke with him. I like the guy and he seemed nice. I had respect for him, but my viewpoint has changed after reading that post and his little snide jabs at various figures and boast of wealth to try to control things. That's no better than a US politician a.k.a. thug with a suit on.
legendary
Activity: 1722
Merit: 1004
January 10, 2015, 07:38:40 PM
#81
You should listen in to the chatter that happens on IRC during a fork. It's pretty funny and panic filled.

The forks I remember were urgent, deployed in a hurry. I would assume a well planned and announced months in advance fork would be somewhat calmer.... unless the "change is bad" crowd holds out and it's only finally applied in an emergency when the network is already practically DDoSing itself to death.


Here's how Satoshi intended to do it:

It can be phased in, like:

if (blocknumber > 115000)
    maxblocksize = largerlimit

It can start being in versions way ahead, so by the time it reaches that block number and goes into effect, the older versions that don't have it are already obsolete.

When we're near the cutoff block number, I can put an alert to old versions to make sure they know they have to upgrade.



Note that Gavin's plan with miner's signaling willingness via a new version number in the block header is even better (he mentions this in the comments: http://gavintech.blogspot.com/2015/01/looking-before-scaling-up-leap.html scroll down)


Edit: Here's Gavin's signaling suggestion from the comments on his post:

Quote from: Gavin
I'll be proposing what we did for the block.version=1 to block.version=2 soft fork: miners signal that they approve of the new rules by producing less-than-1-MB-blocks with version=3 (the version number is part of the block header of every block).

When 50% of blocks are version=3, old version of the reference implementation start complaining: "Warning: This version is obsolete, upgrade required!"

Whenever... uhh... 80% of blocks produced are version=3, the fork happens: version=2 blocks are rejected, and miners are free to build bigger-than-1-MB version=3 blocks.

The hard fork would happen sometime after that, when a miner actually DOES produce a bigger-than-1-MB block (that is assuming that we don't decide to make some other incompatible hard-forking change that is also tied to block.version=3 blocks becoming a supermajority).
legendary
Activity: 4690
Merit: 1276
January 10, 2015, 07:01:08 PM
#80

Here's a glimpse of the war:
If the hard fork happens, it should be possible to cycle funds in and out of exchanges that are dumb enough to switch, splitting away real-bitcoin whenever the withdraw gives you an output that hasn't been doublespent yet. Withdraw, split, send fake-coins back into exchange, repeat. When "dust settles," exchange is now fractional reserve (if it wasn't already).

Oh Ya.  I always build from source and can patch and deploy in a matter of seconds.  If we kill it trying to save it, oh well...I took my fair share at 100x a long time ago.  Much more than my fair share actually.  Hard fork?  Bring it, bitch.

hero member
Activity: 602
Merit: 501
January 10, 2015, 06:59:32 PM
#79
Whichever way it goes, it's gonna be hilarious.
full member
Activity: 212
Merit: 100
Daniel P. Barron
January 10, 2015, 06:50:33 PM
#78
What does Mircea Popescu have to lose by this proposed fork? It's obvious by his reaction that he feels this would be very negative for him, but why?

And I agree, Mircea's attitude and comments about his budget are a big turnoff.

That's like saying "I've lost the fight, so I'm going to go in with my wallet and buy my victory since my logic and arguments didn't prevail."

That's also how the Federal Reserve runs things. They use their control of money as their only power.

Big turn-off. And tyrannical.

Lost the fight? It's more like one guy said, "I'm gonna start validating invalid blocks for some derpy reason," and another (much more important) guy said, "alright, well I'm not gonna do that; have fun!" The fight hasn't begun yet; upvoting regurgitations from the latest gospel of derpopolous (or whoever replaced him after his death) does not constitute a fight.

Here's a glimpse of the war:
If the hard fork happens, it should be possible to cycle funds in and out of exchanges that are dumb enough to switch, splitting away real-bitcoin whenever the withdraw gives you an output that hasn't been doublespent yet. Withdraw, split, send fake-coins back into exchange, repeat. When "dust settles," exchange is now fractional reserve (if it wasn't already).
legendary
Activity: 2156
Merit: 1393
You lead and I'll watch you walk away.
January 10, 2015, 05:26:49 PM
#77
You should listen in to the chatter that happens on IRC during a fork. It's pretty funny and panic filled.

The forks I remember were urgent, deployed in a hurry. I would assume a well planned and announced months in advance fork would be somewhat calmer.... unless the "change is bad" crowd holds out and it's only finally applied in an emergency when the network is already practically DDoSing itself to death.

lol Yeah, the urgent ones are the best entertainment value.
hero member
Activity: 518
Merit: 500
Hodl!
January 10, 2015, 05:24:13 PM
#76
You should listen in to the chatter that happens on IRC during a fork. It's pretty funny and panic filled.

The forks I remember were urgent, deployed in a hurry. I would assume a well planned and announced months in advance fork would be somewhat calmer.... unless the "change is bad" crowd holds out and it's only finally applied in an emergency when the network is already practically DDoSing itself to death.
legendary
Activity: 2156
Merit: 1393
You lead and I'll watch you walk away.
January 10, 2015, 05:16:49 PM
#75
We know roughly 20% of the hash rate is of unknown origin. Does anyone else know if MP controls or has controlling interest any known pools?

This thread would be so much more fun if MPOE-PR was still around.

Few months ago CEX.io CIO Jeffrey Smith expressed concern about the origin of this unknown hash rate. The interview below...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yvMQeCl9K-U

That's my point. Before you kick a sleeping tiger that has no teeth make sure you can see his gums.

We have previously seen that this guy, Mircea Popescu, do have some deep pocket...

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2014/01/20/openbsd_bailed_out/

But I doubt, whether he'll be able to fight against the venture capitalists those have walked into the bitcoin game in 2014, e.g. Tim Draper. To these people Gavin's word is most probably more valuable and I guess, the future of Bitcoin core is ultimately in the hand of The Bitcoin Foundation. So, if Gavin can convince them, it is very difficult to resist it from outside.

At the end of the day, we need to see, who is speaking logical.

Control of Bitcoin rests in the hands of miners when you're talking about a chain fork. Clout doesn't matter as much as mining power does. Who will follow the new chain?

Oops... am I having a conceptual problem here ? As I understand, hard fork is more about nodes than it is about the miners. Unless, there are some new mining rules coming in, miners do not probably have much to say. It will depend on the mempool of the nodes, which will decide which tx will be accepted and which not + which block found by the miners to be relayed and which not.... again I am confused. Am I wrong ?

You're right nodes matter. But the miners will need to accept the new fork and work off of it. There can't be two databases to work from. You should listen in to the chatter that happens on IRC during a fork. It's pretty funny and panic filled.
legendary
Activity: 2226
Merit: 1052
January 10, 2015, 05:08:15 PM
#74
We know roughly 20% of the hash rate is of unknown origin. Does anyone else know if MP controls or has controlling interest any known pools?

This thread would be so much more fun if MPOE-PR was still around.

Few months ago CEX.io CIO Jeffrey Smith expressed concern about the origin of this unknown hash rate. The interview below...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yvMQeCl9K-U

That's my point. Before you kick a sleeping tiger that has no teeth make sure you can see his gums.

We have previously seen that this guy, Mircea Popescu, do have some deep pocket...

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2014/01/20/openbsd_bailed_out/

But I doubt, whether he'll be able to fight against the venture capitalists those have walked into the bitcoin game in 2014, e.g. Tim Draper. To these people Gavin's word is most probably more valuable and I guess, the future of Bitcoin core is ultimately in the hand of The Bitcoin Foundation. So, if Gavin can convince them, it is very difficult to resist it from outside.

At the end of the day, we need to see, who is speaking logical.

Control of Bitcoin rests in the hands of miners when you're talking about a chain fork. Clout doesn't matter as much as mining power does. Who will follow the new chain?

Oops... am I having a conceptual problem here ? As I understand, hard fork is more about nodes than it is about the miners. Unless, there are some new mining rules coming in, miners do not probably have much to say. It will depend on the mempool of the nodes, which will decide which tx will be accepted and which not + which block found by the miners to be relayed and which not.... again I am confused. Am I wrong ?
legendary
Activity: 2156
Merit: 1393
You lead and I'll watch you walk away.
January 10, 2015, 05:03:33 PM
#73
We know roughly 20% of the hash rate is of unknown origin. Does anyone else know if MP controls or has controlling interest any known pools?

This thread would be so much more fun if MPOE-PR was still around.

Few months ago CEX.io CIO Jeffrey Smith expressed concern about the origin of this unknown hash rate. The interview below...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yvMQeCl9K-U

That's my point. Before you kick a sleeping tiger that has no teeth make sure you can see his gums.

We have previously seen that this guy, Mircea Popescu, do have some deep pocket...

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2014/01/20/openbsd_bailed_out/

But I doubt, whether he'll be able to fight against the venture capitalists those have walked into the bitcoin game in 2014, e.g. Tim Draper. To these people Gavin's word is most probably more valuable and I guess, the future of Bitcoin core is ultimately in the hand of The Bitcoin Foundation. So, if Gavin can convince them, it is very difficult to resist it from outside.

At the end of the day, we need to see, who is speaking logical.

Control of Bitcoin rests in the hands of miners when you're talking about a chain fork. Clout doesn't matter as much as mining power does. Who will follow the new chain?
legendary
Activity: 2226
Merit: 1052
January 10, 2015, 04:45:36 PM
#72
We know roughly 20% of the hash rate is of unknown origin. Does anyone else know if MP controls or has controlling interest any known pools?

This thread would be so much more fun if MPOE-PR was still around.

Few months ago CEX.io CIO Jeffrey Smith expressed concern about the origin of this unknown hash rate. The interview below...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yvMQeCl9K-U

That's my point. Before you kick a sleeping tiger that has no teeth make sure you can see his gums.

We have previously seen that this guy, Mircea Popescu, do have some deep pocket...

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2014/01/20/openbsd_bailed_out/

But I doubt, whether he'll be able to fight against the venture capitalists those have walked into the bitcoin game in 2014, e.g. Tim Draper. To these people Gavin's word is most probably more valuable and I guess, the future of Bitcoin core is ultimately in the hand of The Bitcoin Foundation. So, if Gavin can convince them, it is very difficult to resist it from outside.

At the end of the day, we need to see, who is speaking logical.
legendary
Activity: 2156
Merit: 1393
You lead and I'll watch you walk away.
January 10, 2015, 04:28:20 PM
#71
We know roughly 20% of the hash rate is of unknown origin. Does anyone else know if MP controls or has controlling interest any known pools?

This thread would be so much more fun if MPOE-PR was still around.

Few months ago CEX.io CIO Jeffrey Smith expressed concern about the origin of this unknown hash rate. The interview below...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yvMQeCl9K-U

That's my point. Before you kick a sleeping tiger that has no teeth make sure you can see his gums.
legendary
Activity: 2226
Merit: 1052
January 10, 2015, 04:22:46 PM
#70
We know roughly 20% of the hash rate is of unknown origin. Does anyone else know if MP controls or has controlling interest any known pools?

This thread would be so much more fun if MPOE-PR was still around.

Few months ago CEX.io CIO Jeffrey Smith expressed concern about the origin of this unknown hash rate. The interview below...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yvMQeCl9K-U
legendary
Activity: 4690
Merit: 1276
January 10, 2015, 04:06:32 PM
#69
@tvbcof 2 way peg requires hard fork too, no?  would appreciate response to my prior question about how sidechains address storage.

No.  At best a soft fork to implement the spv_verify opcode.  It would not be necessary, strictly speaking, and the opcode is just a generally useful thing that many disparate efforts could possibly use to invent or optimize whatever interests them.

As for storage, some chains would certainly bloat.  I don't care about them.  If I happen to be using one which does so in a way that I consider problematic in the role I'm using it for, I'll simply deprecate my use of it and move on to something else.

The only thing I care deeply about is the actual Bitcoin core.  If it bloats to the point where it is not likely that it could be supported in a manner which is suitable in worst-case scenarios, then Bitcoin is a vastly less interesting thing to me.

We really only need one solid defensible core.  I hope this ends up being Bitcoin, and feel that it is not yet to late.  Individual sidechains are dispensable.  I only need one carefully protected basket because the eggs I have in other baskets can be low in count.  And most properly implemented sidechains would not result in the few eggs breaking anyway...just jumping back into my Bitcoin basket before impact.

legendary
Activity: 2156
Merit: 1393
You lead and I'll watch you walk away.
January 10, 2015, 03:41:29 PM
#68
We know roughly 20% of the hash rate is of unknown origin. Does anyone else know if MP controls or has controlling interest any known pools?

This thread would be so much more fun if MPOE-PR was still around.
legendary
Activity: 1302
Merit: 1008
Core dev leaves me neg feedback #abuse #political
January 10, 2015, 03:29:58 PM
#67
@tvbcof 2 way peg requires hard fork too, no?  would appreciate response to my prior question about how sidechains address storage.
hero member
Activity: 742
Merit: 500
January 10, 2015, 03:03:29 PM
#66
sidechains are the next stupid megalomaniac idea which endanger its useability for its main purpose by introducing more complexity. Has it even been tested in the wild on an altcoin?
This is such a megalomaniac fail-parade, unbelievable.
Bitcoiners are some serious nutcases.

You're aiming too high all the time. Bitcoin as the only coin and alts as scam-only to support bitcoins #1 position is going to backfire royally.

Bitcoin with its idea to be unaccompanied world #1 coin forever is nothing that's possible. The idea alone warrants to see a doctor for mental examination.

Right now bitcoin stifles innovation and endangers all of crypto to fail with the way it behaves. You got some serious homework on diversity and innovation outside of the btc blockchain to do.

#justsayin'

It's pretty much screwed from the beginning with this longterm high inflation. Bitcoin meets the same fate as most shitcoins: looses 99% of value - but not because it  wouldn't be possible to have a coin that can maintain value but because satoshi designed it inflationary and inflation never was a good thing. It's just a destuctive force on the market, nothing else. Observe the scarce coins. They found their bottom after the bubble mid last year while bitcoin has no bottom apparently.

I think i'm not the only one exteremely unhappy and annoyed with this arrogant bitcoin-folks, the know-it-alls on the quest for worlddomination on first try while it's actually falling like a rock right in front of you. There's some serious imbalance between peoples perception, wishes, dreams and reality. This whole fork and sidechains-discussion just shows how detached everyone is from reality.

I'm not managing to filter a coherent "position" out of your posts.... "It's all broken anyway, it's failing, please don't fix it, I hate it, but I don't want it to change, I want money that's useful everywhere but I don't want universal money..."

Fix your inflation problem first is my point. And stop acting as if bitcoin would be a sure thing to take over the world. And then there's enough real value alts can provide which is denied too.

So that's the point. Bitcoin stifles innovation and diversity while being unable to even survive itself.
All your problems start with your high inflation and long halvings. The problems continue to pile up with your idea of bitcoin being the only true coin. You get caught in a lot of problems with this philosophy.

So #1 problem: inflation
#2 problem: philosophy of the whole thing

you're discussing forks to bloat the chain to avoid a problem that did not even occure and likely never will. You lost touch with reality.
Selloff after selloff after one year bearmarket. It collapses right in front of you but you idiots discuss a fork to bloat the chain because of a pseudo-problem which doesn't occure for many reasons - of which the main one is: it's collapsing


edit: ... wait a second ... i  totally forgot everyone is corrupt by the bags they hold and lost ability to think clear because of that. lmao. A circus of greed. Epic failtrain.

(i'll shut up now and leave the discussion and watch you know-it-alls from a distance)
hero member
Activity: 518
Merit: 500
Hodl!
January 10, 2015, 02:57:39 PM
#65
sidechains are the next stupid megalomaniac idea which endanger its useability for its main purpose by introducing more complexity. Has it even been tested in the wild on an altcoin?
This is such a megalomaniac fail-parade, unbelievable.
Bitcoiners are some serious nutcases.

You're aiming too high all the time. Bitcoin as the only coin and alts as scam-only to support bitcoins #1 position is going to backfire royally.

Bitcoin with its idea to be unaccompanied world #1 coin forever is nothing that's possible. The idea alone warrants to see a doctor for mental examination.

Right now bitcoin stifles innovation and endangers all of crypto to fail with the way it behaves. You got some serious homework on diversity and innovation outside of the btc blockchain to do.

#justsayin'

It's pretty much screwed from the beginning with this longterm high inflation. Bitcoin meets the same fate as most shitcoins: looses 99% of value - but not because it  wouldn't be possible to have a coin that can maintain value but because satoshi designed it inflationary and inflation never was a good thing. It's just a destuctive force on the market, nothing else. Observe the scarce coins. They found their bottom after the bubble mid last year while bitcoin has no bottom apparently.

I think i'm not the only one exteremely unhappy and annoyed with this arrogant bitcoin-folks, the know-it-alls on the quest for worlddomination on first try while it's actually falling like a rock right in front of you. There's some serious imbalance between peoples perception, wishes, dreams and reality. This whole fork and sidechains-discussion just shows how detached everyone is from reality.

I'm not managing to filter a coherent "position" out of your posts.... "It's all broken anyway, it's failing, please don't fix it, I hate it, but I don't want it to change, I want money that's useful everywhere but I don't want universal money..."
legendary
Activity: 4690
Merit: 1276
January 10, 2015, 02:51:39 PM
#64
Not against changing increasing the max block size. But sidechains, wtf do we need them for?

To do any number of mutually exclusive tasks that Bitcoin cannot do natively.  Examples: increase block frequency, allow effectively unlimited transaction volumes for micro-transactions, be legally compliant with regulators, NOT be legally compliant with regulators, be transparent, be opaque, be lossy, be loss-less, etc, etc.

With a two-way peg (which works as advertised) it is economically valid to consider a sidechain currency to BE Bitcoin.

Yet another win is that it would allow Bitcoin to freeze (or 'slush' as we call it) in a state that is still largely free of corruption and not yet centralized beyond salvation.

Yet another win is that as I've shown on other threads, POW mining in Bitcoin-land is guaranteed to be an eventual money loser for all but the biggest players who can tap other revenue streams most of which are to the detriment of the user (and to the advantage of Big Bro.)  This due to unlimited supply of mining gear and where the integration ends up.  We've already seen in several times IIRC, and there is zero reason to suspect that we won't see it again.  Sidechains themselves MUST support Bitcoin since they are backed by it no matter what the economics.

To my way of thinking sidechains are the biggest win/win 'in the history of mankind' (to use an absurd quote from the re-finance commercial.)

 edit: typo: Bit Bro  -->  Big Bro
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