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Topic: Fractional Reserve Lending IS NOT bad - its unavoidable - page 8. (Read 12751 times)

sr. member
Activity: 448
Merit: 250
The real issue is not that we "allow" fractional reserve lending. The government should not be involved in banking at all.

Banks would not take such stupid risks if they were not back by the federal reserve's ability to print money. If you make stupid decisions you fail. The government bailout addiction makes it easy for banks to make stupid decisions and the hyper regulation after such a bailout leads to the demise of small banks which compounds the original issue by further centralizing the banking system and increasing the risk of systemic shocks. These newly merged frankenbanks are then even more likely to be bailed out for bad decision making. The bailouts come from you and me in the form of tax dollars and devalued currency. Rinse and repeat ad nauseam.

Agree with this.  But let's not forget the human propensity to be greedy, especially when they are not personally taking on risk themselves.

Banks are run by managers who are paid bonuses. When losses occur, it is the shareholders that get hit.  I don't recall any banker going to prison since the GFC. Maybe in Iceland. 

And if those risks make profits and stockholders make money? 

Bankers make money in the short term (possible 5 to 10 year period), get paid bonuses.  The debt bubble eventually collapses leaving shareholders and taxpayers with the bill.
hero member
Activity: 784
Merit: 500
Yes, the modern differentiation between property and management can have serious risks. An exaggerated attention to the short-term (profits this year) and a disregard for the long-term interests of the corporation. So, risks with good short-term profits are welcome.
A system of laissez-faire on the banking system was precisely what left us where we are.

I agree that there should be more regulation but the debate is how much?  Is Dodd Frank enough to prevent another 2008?  We won't know til it happens again
sr. member
Activity: 481
Merit: 268
Yes, the modern differentiation between property and management can have serious risks. An exaggerated attention to the short-term (profits this year) and a disregard for the long-term interests of the corporation. So, risks with good short-term profits are welcome.
A system of laissez-faire on the banking system was precisely what left us where we are.
hero member
Activity: 784
Merit: 500
The real issue is not that we "allow" fractional reserve lending. The government should not be involved in banking at all.

Banks would not take such stupid risks if they were not back by the federal reserve's ability to print money. If you make stupid decisions you fail. The government bailout addiction makes it easy for banks to make stupid decisions and the hyper regulation after such a bailout leads to the demise of small banks which compounds the original issue by further centralizing the banking system and increasing the risk of systemic shocks. These newly merged frankenbanks are then even more likely to be bailed out for bad decision making. The bailouts come from you and me in the form of tax dollars and devalued currency. Rinse and repeat ad nauseam.

Agree with this.  But let's not forget the human propensity to be greedy, especially when they are not personally taking on risk themselves.

Banks are run by managers who are paid bonuses. When losses occur, it is the shareholders that get hit.  I don't recall any banker going to prison since the GFC. Maybe in Iceland. 

And if those risks make profits and stockholders make money? 
hero member
Activity: 784
Merit: 500
The real issue is not that we "allow" fractional reserve lending. The government should not be involved in banking at all.

Banks would not take such stupid risks if they were not back by the federal reserve's ability to print money. If you make stupid decisions you fail. The government bailout addiction makes it easy for banks to make stupid decisions and the hyper regulation after such a bailout leads to the demise of small banks which compounds the original issue by further centralizing the banking system and increasing the risk of systemic shocks. These newly merged frankenbanks are then even more likely to be bailed out for bad decision making. The bailouts come from you and me in the form of tax dollars and devalued currency. Rinse and repeat ad nauseam.

You are wrong.  Bailout was an emergency loan that's already paid off w interest

In the case of AIG the Treasury took equity in terms of AIG stock and made a handsome profit selling in 2012.

I don't know about you but I didnt pay any more taxes because of bailouts.  I got suckered into an ARM mortgage by Countrywide and when my interest ballooned no bank allowed me refinance because my mortgage was underwater.  But I could roll it into an FHA jumbo.  So the govt helped me out a lot
sr. member
Activity: 448
Merit: 250
The real issue is not that we "allow" fractional reserve lending. The government should not be involved in banking at all.

Banks would not take such stupid risks if they were not back by the federal reserve's ability to print money. If you make stupid decisions you fail. The government bailout addiction makes it easy for banks to make stupid decisions and the hyper regulation after such a bailout leads to the demise of small banks which compounds the original issue by further centralizing the banking system and increasing the risk of systemic shocks. These newly merged frankenbanks are then even more likely to be bailed out for bad decision making. The bailouts come from you and me in the form of tax dollars and devalued currency. Rinse and repeat ad nauseam.

Agree with this.  But let's not forget the human propensity to be greedy, especially when they are not personally taking on risk themselves.

Banks are run by managers who are paid bonuses. When losses occur, it is the shareholders that get hit.  I don't recall any banker going to prison since the GFC. Maybe in Iceland. 
sr. member
Activity: 406
Merit: 250
The real issue is not that we "allow" fractional reserve lending. The government should not be involved in banking at all.

Banks would not take such stupid risks if they were not back by the federal reserve's ability to print money. If you make stupid decisions you fail. The government bailout addiction makes it easy for banks to make stupid decisions and the hyper regulation after such a bailout leads to the demise of small banks which compounds the original issue by further centralizing the banking system and increasing the risk of systemic shocks. These newly merged frankenbanks are then even more likely to be bailed out for bad decision making. The bailouts come from you and me in the form of tax dollars and devalued currency. Rinse and repeat ad nauseam.
hero member
Activity: 784
Merit: 500
FR isn't only the right to lend out money someone lent to us, in the end it's the right to create money by lending the same amount of money several times.
Technically, isn't fraud, but it's risky and concedes a public function (a sovereign one) to a corporation, the right to create money, crowding out as unnecessary the same amount of public money. If the bank can lend the same money, it doesn't have to ask for credit from the central bank. We all lose.


The risk is credit worthiness of the borrower.

In England there is no cap so banks can create unlimited credit as long as there are credit worthy borrowers.  The make the loans THEN they look for the reserves not the other way around. The problem occurs when deregulation allows things like subprime lending

The issue isn't whether we should have FRB or not.  It's absolutely necessary for modern economies.  The issue is how to regulate it in order to avoid systemic risk
sr. member
Activity: 448
Merit: 250
FR isn't only the right to lend out money someone lent to us, in the end it's the right to create money by lending the same amount of money several times.
Technically, isn't fraud, but it's risky and concedes a public function (a sovereign one) to a corporation, the right to create money, crowding out as unnecessary the same amount of public money. If the bank can lend the same money, it doesn't have to ask for credit from the central bank. We all lose.


I disagree, we would lose if that money was sitting in a vault doing nothing. People need to save for their futures, and FRB allows that savings to be used productively to create economic value that benefits us all. If FRB was banned, money would have to be stored in vaults and under mattresses or (more likely) FRB would just take other forms.

Banks are not only lending out the money that they have, they are lending out the money they DON'T have.
sr. member
Activity: 448
Merit: 250
FR isn't only the right to lend out money someone lent to us, in the end it's the right to create money by lending the same amount of money several times.
Technically, isn't fraud, but it's risky and concedes a public function (a sovereign one) to a corporation, the right to create money, crowding out as unnecessary the same amount of public money. If the bank can lend the same money, it doesn't have to ask for credit from the central bank. We all lose.


This is an intelligent comment.  Smiley
sr. member
Activity: 448
Merit: 250
Wrong.
Fractional reserve lending is fraud.
Prices transmit information in a free market.
"Some holder(s) of a larger amount of this currency lend currency out to individuals, to collect interest. This creates a fractional reserve banking phenomenon"
lending money at interest is not fractional reserve banking.
You have your definitions mixed up.  Huh

In what world is fractional reserve banking fraud? When you take your money to the bank and they agree to hold it for you and pay interest, you know that they are doing so in order to lend it out. If they didn't lend it out, you would have to pay THEM interest.

Also, the benefit of fractional reserve banking is that it allows multiple people to use the same money at the same time. You can have your money in a rainy-day fund, and I can use it to buy stuff until you need it back. Locking money in a vault and doing nothing with it for years is not productive.
Then have one to one lending.  NO problems with that.
sr. member
Activity: 481
Merit: 268
Ending it completely might be too demanding, but limiting it? 10% seems to be the rule around the world. That is playing with a serious risk.
And allows a drastic banking multiplier on the creation of money.
legendary
Activity: 1330
Merit: 1003
FR isn't only the right to lend out money someone lent to us, in the end it's the right to create money by lending the same amount of money several times.
Technically, isn't fraud, but it's risky and concedes a public function (a sovereign one) to a corporation, the right to create money, crowding out as unnecessary the same amount of public money. If the bank can lend the same money, it doesn't have to ask for credit from the central bank. We all lose.


I disagree, we would lose if that money was sitting in a vault doing nothing. People need to save for their futures, and FRB allows that savings to be used productively to create economic value that benefits us all. If FRB was banned, money would have to be stored in vaults and under mattresses or (more likely) FRB would just take other forms.
sr. member
Activity: 481
Merit: 268
FR isn't only the right to lend out money someone lent to us, in the end it's the right to create money by lending the same amount of money several times.
Technically, isn't fraud, but it's risky and concedes a public function (a sovereign one) to a corporation, the right to create money, crowding out as unnecessary the same amount of public money. If the bank can lend the same money, it doesn't have to ask for credit from the central bank. We all lose.
legendary
Activity: 1330
Merit: 1003
On the issue of Fractional reserve banking being a fraud or not, I just want to point out that we individuals would go to jail if we started lending several times money people entrusted to us. But never mind.

Individuals are not banks. There is a special set of regulations that allows banks to do what they do. These do not extend to individuals (unless those individuals decide to open a bank Smiley )

And please explain to us all why banks should have this special privilege?  And tell me what is the Blockchain for?

The only reason it is a special privilege is because the government labels anyone who does so a bank. You can't bank without being a bank and therefore only banks are allowed to bank. If regulations did not restrict the ability of individuals to privately borrow and lend money, anyone could do it. As long as they were responsible about it there would be nothing wrong.

By the way, fractional reserve banking is nothing more than borrowing money to invest it. For example, I would be engaging in activities very similar to FRB:

1: If I borrow money on a site like BTC Jam and then loan it out at a higher interest rate, or if I buy Bitcoins using money from my credit card and then loan out those Bitcoins.

2: If I borrow money on a credit card to buy stocks at an IPO, since a stock is essentially a loan to a company secured with partial ownership (to be more accurate I could buy bonds).

newbie
Activity: 26
Merit: 0
On the issue of Fractional reserve banking being a fraud or not, I just want to point out that we individuals would go to jail if we started lending several times money people entrusted to us. But never mind.

Individuals are not banks. There is a special set of regulations that allows banks to do what they do. These do not extend to individuals (unless those individuals decide to open a bank Smiley )

And please explain to us all why banks should have this special privilege?  And tell me what is the Blockchain for?

Because that's what the politicians we voted into office legislated. That's the rules that were made. For the same reason a policeman gets to arrest people and I don't. Right?

Block chain is for keeping a history of transactions. Why?
legendary
Activity: 1330
Merit: 1003
Wrong.
Fractional reserve lending is fraud.
Prices transmit information in a free market.
"Some holder(s) of a larger amount of this currency lend currency out to individuals, to collect interest. This creates a fractional reserve banking phenomenon"
lending money at interest is not fractional reserve banking.
You have your definitions mixed up.  Huh

In what world is fractional reserve banking fraud? When you take your money to the bank and they agree to hold it for you and pay interest, you know that they are doing so in order to lend it out. If they didn't lend it out, you would have to pay THEM interest.

Also, the benefit of fractional reserve banking is that it allows multiple people to use the same money at the same time. You can have your money in a rainy-day fund, and I can use it to buy stuff until you need it back. Locking money in a vault and doing nothing with it for years is not productive.
newbie
Activity: 26
Merit: 0
Hey, just want to be clear why you guys are saying frb is 'fraud'. I don't get it. Fraud means that there was some dishonesty. However, the frb system, at least in the us, is very well understood and how it works is public knowledge. So, no real deception/dishonesty. Who is deceiving who, and how?

Not well understood by the public.  And especially retirees, savers and other hardworking people out there.

Not sure I get your point. Its not like the rules governing banks and fractional reserve are secret and/or deceptive. They can be retrieved via internet, library, etc. Wikipedia has good summaries of it too. The rules are published and the banks operate by those rules. I don't see any fraud. Or am I missing something?
sr. member
Activity: 448
Merit: 250
On the issue of Fractional reserve banking being a fraud or not, I just want to point out that we individuals would go to jail if we started lending several times money people entrusted to us. But never mind.

Individuals are not banks. There is a special set of regulations that allows banks to do what they do. These do not extend to individuals (unless those individuals decide to open a bank Smiley )

And please explain to us all why banks should have this special privilege?  And tell me what is the Blockchain for?
newbie
Activity: 26
Merit: 0
On the issue of Fractional reserve banking being a fraud or not, I just want to point out that we individuals would go to jail if we started lending several times money people entrusted to us. But never mind.

Individuals are not banks. There is a special set of regulations that allows banks to do what they do. These do not extend to individuals (unless those individuals decide to open a bank Smiley )
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