Topic: FreiCoin (FRC) discussion (was FreiCoin (FRC) for TRC, PPC, LTC or BTC) - page 17. (Read 42655 times)

Thanks Jutarul, quick and easy!

I to would like to read any critique of Gessel's demurrage.

Any coins that I cannot sell for 0.5BTC for 1,000FRC I am keeping for when a FRC exchange opens.

No. If we were targeting stable prices we wouldn't have a fixed supply. What we target is stable velocity.
Our concern is price cycles motivated by interest rates cycles inherent in everlasting cash. When capital yields are lower than interest rates lending stops precipitating a deflationary spiral that will reverse the situation by not producing more producing goods (capital) until they're badly needed and yields can pay interest again. War and natural disasters (by destroying capital) can rise yields too. That's the little truth in the broken window fallacy, but it doesn't take much to understand that destruction can't be good for the economy and I don't think I have to convince you on this.
With a money that keeps moving at zero interest rates (freicoin), capital yields can drop to zero as they naturally tend to.
Central bankers can manipulate the financial market through money creation, but that just creates bubbles. That can make the impression that is all good again for those who believe that "it's all about confidence" but savers have in fact less incentive to invest over hoard, so little is done to restore velocity. Each new bigger quantity does less. They either have to accept interest and cycles or wait for all that piled cash to come back to the market on a hyperinflationary race. In that sense, people like Max Keiser are right when they say that low interest rates (he really means manipulated low rates) are in fact deflationary. There's much talk about "system liquidity" but too little on money velocity.

When I said earlier that they could be sold directly for bitcoin or fiat I was trying to make the point that even skeptic merchants should rationally accept them (well, when the market is deep enough for their operations). Just like bitcoin skeptic merchants should accept bitcoin through bitpay or a similar service (in fact, I found that argument very useful when explaining bitcoin to people). Sorry, I probably expressed it in an unclear way.


He was wrong on this point too.


Seriously? Please, post here the link. I've been looking for a serious austrian critique to Gesell's theory on interest for years and I found nothing.
Most of them haven't read anything are happy just saying "Look, Keynes was somehow inspired by a crackpot that proposed negative interest rates, but he doesn't even need a serious critique".


Well calling one of the man that earlier and more insistently advocated for free trade among nations, against protectionism and public subsidies a communist (that's what you really mean by socialist) is at the very least daring. He was a proud "free market socialist" in the same sense Proudhon was. I would say he was an anticapitalist.
Probably all these terms are specially hard to understand for north americans, where free market is usually equated to capitalism and socialism to marxism. Just like it's hard to explain anarchocapitalism here in Spain, where anarchism is usually equated to collectivism and cooperatives. Just read the introduction of the book that inspires this currency to know a little more about the feelings Gesell processed for Marx. There you can read: "The abolition of unearned income, of so-called surplus-value also termed interest and rent, is the immediate economic aim of every socialistic movement."
So unless you're in favor of economic rents you would also fall into the socialist category according to that definition.

In any case, cooperativism is not incompatible free market. And free land is not based on cooperativism but on the state. His point is that like money-capital, land is pure capital (and unlike producing goods, whose capital status is transferred from money-capital). Don't want to talk much about land taxes, but here's his main advocate: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_george


I don't see how demurrage money is necessarily bad as a unit for contracts. It's not the same as inflationary money. If you are owed 1000 usd and there's 10% inflation you will lose 10% on real value. But if there's no price inflation you won't lose even if the reference currency has demurrage. If you are owed 1000 frc to be paid next year, you are owed 1000 frc to be paid next year, no matter the demurrage rate. If the borrower wants to sit on the money and pay the demurrage instead of invest it on something productive that's his problem.
That said (and as I've said multiple times on mutual credit/Ripple contexts), my prediction is that in the future credit will be mostly denominated in stable indexes and basket of commodities (not necessarily stored anywhere) rather than floating cash. Indexes like 1970usd or Lietaer's Terra. Maybe the contract says somthing like this:
"A receives 10 terras in freicoins (X fricoin) today from B. A will have to repay 10 terras in freicoins (quantity to be calculated at the time of settlement) next year to B".
That would allow to ignore the inflation premium when calculating the interest. Ideally the risk premium would be the only interest component.

Sorry for this long post, I really should write a blog and link to it...


Thank you !!

I've got a few I'm selling @0.5 BTC per 1000 FRC

pm me if interested

jtimon,

you are doing it right, well done, you have made the market by making a bid.

I'm buying at 0.000125 BTC per FRC (0.125btc per 1000 frc).

Pm if anyone is interested.

Well, 0.0005 BTC per FRC seems like a firm ask. Here's my bid, trying to set a bottom price.

I'm buying at 0.0001 BTC per FRC (0.1btc per 1000 frc), I have 24 btc for this. That is, I'm buying up to 240,000 frc at this price.

PM if you're interested. I'll update this if I spend it all on other asks.

Maybe Vircurex will add it soon. Send them a request

Salty, don't tell me off. If people didn't want all the FRC then I wouldn't be doing this. I did not expect to be speculating this Christmas.

Here we go. I have 12,000FRC for sale. Price is 0.5BTC per 1,000FRC. Send me a message if you are interested.

EDIT: Would some clever fellow make an exchange for FRC

That was not my intent. I did not mean for them to be interpreted as predictions of the future; I meant only to express my own opinion of one possible outcome. I have edited my posts to reflect this.

EDIT:

I agree those very well could have been interpreted that way, which is why I edited them (and will go back and review them again as I'm in a rush now). What I wrote and you quoted is my own belief and is not meant as a prediction of the future or investment advice in any way. I was under the impression that people were questioning why a demurrage currency could ever have value, and why if it's not supposed to be hoarded are core developers participating in speculation. I offered up my own viewpoint merely as an example, not as an advertisement.

I thought I had qualified my statements as such, but it seems the irrational exuberance of the last few days I haven't been as careful with my words as I should have.


Yes, but freicoins currently have (approximately) zero value. Any future where Freicoin has even the smallest usage would necessarily involve freicoins having nonzero value. Between here and there deflation is mathematically the only possible outcome.

Fiat currencies have dealt with this by using the state prerogative to set exchange rates and print money or absorb losses as necessary. We don't have that power, so unfortunately we simply need to accept that there will be a period of deflationary speculation prior to (possible) price stabilization, 0% interest, and all the rest. We're simply being pragmatic.

doublec, I'll make writing up an explanation of best practices for handling demurrage a top priority, but it'll probably have to wait until tomorrow. I might be able to extract out some code from my projects to share.

EDIT: but the short answer is: attach a "RefHeight" field to each balance, and each time a balance is used by the system, check if the balance is out of date and if so apply demurrage for the intervening blocks and update the balance. If you have a double-entry system you can even keep track of the loss due to demurrage in a special system account so the books balance.

What's the best approach for services that hold user balances to account for the reduction in value of the users account over time? Exchanges and pools tend to have large balances held for users and will not want to foot the cost of the balance reduction.

Is there an API to get this? Does the "accounts" system that bitcoin have work for freicoin and include the reduction in value in the users account balances? I prefer not using the "accounts" system so I'm hoping it's not the only way.

This is the same with PPCcoin. Each block has a different reward value. One way of solving this is to use "getmemorypool". This returns the reward of the block currently being worked on. The pool then provides PPS based on that.

I'd like to point out there isn't an orderbook exchange for Freicoin. You cannot "buy" Freicoin because there's nowhere to buy it. Saying "this is a good time (probably the best time) to pick up cheap coins" only refers to people mining the Freicoin, because compared to Bitcoin mining the Freicoin is still super cheap. The difficulty of Bitcoin is 3000 times where Freicoin is currently.


If you haven't noticed we aren't actively promoting this on the Bitcoin forums. We didn't even make a thread here because we prefer to use our own forum and IRC. I'd rather communicate with people that understand what we're trying to do. We're not marketers/advertisers, and we were not optimizing our behavior to maximize your perception of value. All of our decisions have a singular focus, which is getting the coins into as a diverse set of hands as possible.

Galambo I'm on a phone right now so not in great positions to debate. I quoted what I believed to be assertions that freicoin will gain value over the next few years and suggestions that now is the best time to buy. Nobody knows that. That is what rubbed me the wrong way, it reads like hype and advertising.

It also seems odd that the developer expects the club to be deflationary for a period of years. Isn't the point for this club not to be deflationary?

And rather than dismiss my concerns by saying freicoin I'd not for everyone, why not explain to skeptical newcomers like myself why freicoin is a superior means of exchange?

Not yet, were hoping it pops up of its own accord (an existing exchange starts trading it) if not then maaku will likely put in the time to create one.

Providing offhand commentary on what's happened over the past week isn't blatant advertising. You're getting confused. Of course the coin's been deflationary over the past week. A week ago it didn't even exist. It exists now and we can agree that it has "some" value. As far as I know no orderbook (bid/ask) exchanges exist for Freicoin so we don't really know what its worth on the market. But there has been some gain far beyond the demurrage fee since December 21, when it didn't exist.


You don't see the value of Freicoin. Like it says on the site "it's not for everyone."


If you see any concrete, material misleading statements made by anyone you feel is associated with this project please point them out and I will issue a clarification. We're excited and in a celebratory mood right now. Especially maaku: the project he's been slaving over for the last year (I know I was there) is taking off, so please excuse us for any personal "irrational exuberance."

More blatant advertising here. Making these sorts of promises, that freicoin will increase in value faster than the demurrage fee, is irresponsible and suspicious. Furthermore, can a coin really be non-deflationary if ore expected to gain purchasing power over time?

I also don't see what advantage this provides over bitcoin or why one would choose to accept freicoin instead of bitcoin. One post suggested immediately selling your freicoin for bitcoin, but then isn't freicoin just an unnecessary step in the middle. The bitcoin payment network and method of securing the blockchain is the same as freicoin, right? I might be missing something and is like to see where this goes but seeing the developers publicly declare their coin is going to gain significant value is making me uneasy.

It's like the spam email promising big returns on penny stocks.

I am. Anyone with coins to sell PM me an offer.

Grunching a bit here, but this post gives me the creeps. It reads like an advertisement. This is the best time to buy! Make huge profits when in a few years everyone uses freicoin!

First of all, the coins have to appreciate by >5% to really be worth investing in now at all. Yes that's humble compared to early bitcoin gains but not really in the grand scheme of things. More importantly, if you truly believed what you said in this post you should be snapping up as many cheap freicoins as possible. Making these claims seems misleading.

Lastly, it's odd to encourage hoarding of an anti-hoarding currency.

PPS is a little bit harder to setup for Freicoin because each block has a slightly different reward value. A lot of the pool operators are still working on a solution to this. As I quoted before, the easiest way to mine is with p2pool