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Topic: Fuck: SegWit, LN, Blockstream, Core, Adam Back, and GMazwell - page 7. (Read 46265 times)

AngryDwarf

sr. member

Activity: 476

Merit: 501

Quote from: traincarswreck on April 12, 2017, 01:33:52 AM

Holy fuck. No. First of all that's bullshit. LT's are promissary notes. You can even write them on a piece of paper. What are you suggesting that people are going to use otherwise that is faster and/or cheaper in any form and doesn't require the internet or a private network and is more efficient and not a bank? It's certainly not bitcoin, cash, or any existing payment processor.

Promissory notes?

Quote

"I promise to pay the bearer 10 BTC"

eventually becomes

Quote

"I promise to pay the bearer the sum of 10 promissory notes"

Sounds like fiat system being reinvented all over again.

nutildah

legendary

Legendary level

Activity: 3010

Merit: 8114

Quote from: traincarswreck on April 12, 2017, 01:33:52 AM

Quote from: Quickseller on April 12, 2017, 01:16:30 AM

For all intents and purposes, you need to either be connected to the internet, or some other private network. If both parties are not connected via some low latency network, then other costs (such as time, and likely communications related) will most likely make it much more efficient to use some other medium of exchange.

Holy fuck. No. First of all that's bullshit. LT's are promissary notes. You can even write them on a piece of paper. What are you suggesting that people are going to use otherwise that is faster and/or cheaper in any form and doesn't require the internet or a private network and is more efficient and not a bank? It's certainly not bitcoin, cash, or any existing payment processor.

What the fuck are you talking about?

For all intents and purpose? Are you even thinking about the words you are typing?

The dude makes a living selling forged identities to cyber criminals. Give him a break.

traincarswreck

sr. member

Activity: 532

Merit: 251

I actually hope I just don't understand what you are referring to I don't want to know that you are seriously spouting such ignorance on the forum in which Satoshi brought this project about. I seriously hope I am mistaken now.

traincarswreck

sr. member

Activity: 532

Merit: 251

Quote from: Quickseller on April 12, 2017, 01:16:30 AM

For all intents and purposes, you need to either be connected to the internet, or some other private network. If both parties are not connected via some low latency network, then other costs (such as time, and likely communications related) will most likely make it much more efficient to use some other medium of exchange.

Holy fuck. No. First of all that's bullshit. LT's are promissary notes. You can even write them on a piece of paper. What are you suggesting that people are going to use otherwise that is faster and/or cheaper in any form and doesn't require the internet or a private network and is more efficient and not a bank? It's certainly not bitcoin, cash, or any existing payment processor.

What the fuck are you talking about?

For all intents and purpose? Are you even thinking about the words you are typing?

Quickseller

copper member

Activity: 2996

Merit: 2374

Quote from: traincarswreck on April 12, 2017, 12:32:42 AM

Quote from: Quickseller on April 12, 2017, 12:31:07 AM

They need to be able to communicate with eachother to send eachother the signatures to the updates closing transactions. They don't have to use the internet to do this, however it, by far makes the most sense to.

You figure when they asked you a and b need to be online what they meant was "do a and b need to be able to communicate with each other in any shape or form?"?

For all intents and purposes, you need to either be connected to the internet, or some other private network. If both parties are not connected via some low latency network, then other costs (such as time, and likely communications related) will most likely make it much more efficient to use some other medium of exchange.

anonymoustroll420

full member

Activity: 196

Merit: 101

Quote from: traincarswreck on April 12, 2017, 01:08:36 AM

Did you just say in order to make a lightning transaction you need a hub that is online?

A lightning transaction is a promissory note. You sign a transaction from your account and give the note to the receiver in any way you want. They don't need to be online and you don't need a hub.

Yeah I think you're right. I thought for some reason the hub would need to countersign when you modify the channel. I guess they don't. hltc is pretty complicated.

So the hub and the receiver do not need to be online at the same time as you.

traincarswreck

sr. member

Activity: 532

Merit: 251

Quote from: The One on April 12, 2017, 12:53:56 AM

That is not much of a solution for people who want to send to another person with many timezones difference.

User a to merchant b i can understand. User a (EU) to user b (Aus) - nah won't work. Merchant a to user b is tricky when user b isn't online. Merchant can stay online 24 hours, most users won't.

No this is just stupidity. Lightning transactions are promissory notes. You think one before you thought that it wouldn't be favorable if you couldn't transact to different fucking time zones? The people that are working on these projects are brilliant you are treating them like they have half the intelligent of you.

You HONESTLY think no one had thought of time zones?

traincarswreck

sr. member

Activity: 532

Merit: 251

Quote from: anonymoustroll420 on April 12, 2017, 12:25:28 AM

The hub needs to "make the adjustments" to each channel.

Did you just say in order to make a lightning transaction you need a hub that is online?

A lightning transaction is a promissory note. You sign a transaction from your account and give the note to the receiver in any way you want. They don't need to be online and you don't need a hub.

The One

legendary

Legendary level

Activity: 924

Merit: 1000

Quote from: traincarswreck on April 12, 2017, 12:50:45 AM

Quote from: The One on April 12, 2017, 12:46:06 AM

I never used the word hyper. Don't you even know what hyperinflation is?
Politicians will do whatever they want and will not change there economic policies based on Bitcoin. They will create money when they need it and not going to stop because of Bitcoins. Banks will create fake money as long as people demand it and will not stop because of Bitcoin. You are living in a fantasy la la land if you think banks and politicians will let Bitcoin dictate their policies.

Finally i never said i was in the BU, r/btc crowd, etc. Stop making things up.

I never said you used the word hyper. Hyperbitcoinization is the exact scenario you described: http://nakamotoinstitute.org/mempool/hyperbitcoinization/

The idea bitcoin will hyper-inflate fiat out of existence or relevance is silly and comes from people that don't understand macro economics

Here is a congressional research report on bitcoin that explains that as bitcoin becomes relevant central banks will be FORCED to reign in supply
https://fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/R43339.pdf

Politicians do not decide money supply.

Quote

You are an economic illiterate. Shut up.

Youve shown no prowess that suggests you could possibly be a relevant writer on misses, and I would be blown away if your claims you read 100 books on the subject of economics was true. And yes you called me a name and told me to shut up which makes me think you are between 15 and 20

Quote

Finally i never said i was in the BU, r/btc crowd, etc. Stop making things up.

I said "bigblockers like yourself" refering to your want to increase the block size.

That article is pants. Bother someone else unless you got something constructive to say regarding LN.

The One

legendary

Legendary level

Activity: 924

Merit: 1000

Quote from: anonymoustroll420 on April 12, 2017, 12:25:28 AM

Quote from: The One on April 12, 2017, 12:16:24 AM

That was i understood but hopefully right. In that case LN is inferior to Bitcoin. Bitcoin is not sensitive to timezones. I can send BTC to a person in USA or Australia at any time and not worry that they are still asleep. With LN i have to wait till they bloody wake up. Sorry but we need a better solution.

The idea is companies like coinbase who already have lots of users and merchants will run lightning hubs that are online 24/7 and allow you to transact with those other users/merchants.

Additionally lightning is really only for microtransactions. It only works with amounts less than 0.042btc (you'll need to open bigger channels for bigger amounts). It's for doing things like buying coffee, you can buy coffee and the transaction will go through instantly, no standing around in the barista waiting for a confirmation and no $0.30 fee for such a small tx.

Quote from: traincarswreck on April 12, 2017, 12:21:06 AM

If the lighting channel transaction doesn't need to propagate then why does either participant need to use the internet?

The hub needs to "make the adjustments" to each channel.

That is not much of a solution for people who want to send to another person with many timezones difference.

User a to merchant b i can understand. User a (EU) to user b (Aus) - nah won't work. Merchant a to user b is tricky when user b isn't online. Merchant can stay online 24 hours, most users won't.

traincarswreck

sr. member

Activity: 532

Merit: 251

Quote from: The One on April 12, 2017, 12:46:06 AM

I never used the word hyper. Don't you even know what hyperinflation is?
Politicians will do whatever they want and will not change there economic policies based on Bitcoin. They will create money when they need it and not going to stop because of Bitcoins. Banks will create fake money as long as people demand it and will not stop because of Bitcoin. You are living in a fantasy la la land if you think banks and politicians will let Bitcoin dictate their policies.

Finally i never said i was in the BU, r/btc crowd, etc. Stop making things up.

I never said you used the word hyper. Hyperbitcoinization is the exact scenario you described: http://nakamotoinstitute.org/mempool/hyperbitcoinization/

The idea bitcoin will hyper-inflate fiat out of existence or relevance is silly and comes from people that don't understand macro economics

Here is a congressional research report on bitcoin that explains that as bitcoin becomes relevant central banks will be FORCED to reign in supply
https://fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/R43339.pdf

Politicians do not decide money supply.

Quote

You are an economic illiterate. Shut up.

Youve shown no prowess that suggests you could possibly be a relevant writer on misses, and I would be blown away if your claims you read 100 books on the subject of economics was true. And yes you called me a name and told me to shut up which makes me think you are between 15 and 20

Quote

Finally i never said i was in the BU, r/btc crowd, etc. Stop making things up.

I said "bigblockers like yourself" refering to your want to increase the block size.

The One

legendary

Legendary level

Activity: 924

Merit: 1000

Quote from: traincarswreck on April 12, 2017, 12:19:38 AM

Quote from: The One on April 11, 2017, 11:32:46 PM

The government will never lose control of the money supply as politicians can only win election by bribing the idiots whom voted for them. If the money supply keeps on expanding, inflation keeps on going up, wages keeps on going up - Bitcoin value will keep on going up as there is only 21m coins. Fiat value goes down. The government can do what they want and my BTC will grow in value to compensate for the government's incompetence. You should be happy but those who don't have BTC will feel the pain. Therefore it is essential for BTC to grow. 2mb is perfectly safe and the best solution for now.

This is what happens when you don't understand macroeconomics. You believe in the silly notion of hyperbitcoinization from hyper inflation of fiat. Governments have the ability to adjust the quality of money they historically didn't need to because they had no competition. Bitcoin, if left unchanged, will cause fiat to have a proper relation to the underlying economy it represents thus strengthening the quality of it.

Changing the limit is not necessary for this to happen thus 2mb doesn't solve anything therefore it will happen because the network will continue to reject such an irrational proposal that has no basis in economic theory, just like its been rejecting such proposals all along.

Bu supporters, r/btc crowd, and big blockers such as yourself are all the same, none of them understand economics. They are just vocal and angry at the people that actually do.

This thread is full of this type of people all high fiving each others ignorance.

Do yourself a favour. You have no idea what you are talking about. You are an economic illiterate. Shut up.

You believe in the silly notion of hyperbitcoinization from hyper inflation of fiat.

I never used the word hyper. Don't you even know what hyperinflation is?
Politicians will do whatever they want and will not change there economic policies based on Bitcoin. They will create money when they need it and not going to stop because of Bitcoins. Banks will create fake money as long as people demand it and will not stop because of Bitcoin. You are living in a fantasy la la land if you think banks and politicians will let Bitcoin dictate their policies.

Finally i never said i was in the BU, r/btc crowd, etc. Stop making things up.

traincarswreck

sr. member

Activity: 532

Merit: 251

Quote from: Quickseller on April 12, 2017, 12:31:07 AM

They need to be able to communicate with eachother to send eachother the signatures to the updates closing transactions. They don't have to use the internet to do this, however it, by far makes the most sense to.

You figure when they asked you a and b need to be online what they meant was "do a and b need to be able to communicate with each other in any shape or form?"?

Quickseller

copper member

Activity: 2996

Merit: 2374

Quote from: traincarswreck on April 12, 2017, 12:21:06 AM

Quote from: Quickseller on April 12, 2017, 12:09:13 AM

Yes.

If the lighting channel transaction doesn't need to propagate then why does either participant need to use the internet?

They need to be able to communicate with eachother to send eachother the signatures to the updates closing transactions. They don't have to use the internet to do this, however it, by far makes the most sense to.

anonymoustroll420

full member

Activity: 196

Merit: 101

Quote from: The One on April 12, 2017, 12:16:24 AM

That was i understood but hopefully right. In that case LN is inferior to Bitcoin. Bitcoin is not sensitive to timezones. I can send BTC to a person in USA or Australia at any time and not worry that they are still asleep. With LN i have to wait till they bloody wake up. Sorry but we need a better solution.

The idea is companies like coinbase who already have lots of users and merchants will run lightning hubs that are online 24/7 and allow you to transact with those other users/merchants.

Additionally lightning is really only for microtransactions. It only works with amounts less than 0.042btc (you'll need to open bigger channels for bigger amounts). It's for doing things like buying coffee, you can buy coffee and the transaction will go through instantly, no standing around in the barista waiting for a confirmation and no $0.30 fee for such a small tx.

Quote from: traincarswreck on April 12, 2017, 12:21:06 AM

If the lighting channel transaction doesn't need to propagate then why does either participant need to use the internet?

The hub needs to "make the adjustments" to each channel.

traincarswreck

sr. member

Activity: 532

Merit: 251

Quote from: Quickseller on April 12, 2017, 12:09:13 AM

Yes.

If the lighting channel transaction doesn't need to propagate then why does either participant need to use the internet?

traincarswreck

sr. member

Activity: 532

Merit: 251

Quote from: The One on April 11, 2017, 11:32:46 PM

The government will never lose control of the money supply as politicians can only win election by bribing the idiots whom voted for them. If the money supply keeps on expanding, inflation keeps on going up, wages keeps on going up - Bitcoin value will keep on going up as there is only 21m coins. Fiat value goes down. The government can do what they want and my BTC will grow in value to compensate for the government's incompetence. You should be happy but those who don't have BTC will feel the pain. Therefore it is essential for BTC to grow. 2mb is perfectly safe and the best solution for now.

This is what happens when you don't understand macroeconomics. You believe in the silly notion of hyperbitcoinization from hyper inflation of fiat. Governments have the ability to adjust the quality of money they historically didn't need to because they had no competition. Bitcoin, if left unchanged, will cause fiat to have a proper relation to the underlying economy it represents thus strengthening the quality of it.

Changing the limit is not necessary for this to happen thus 2mb doesn't solve anything therefore it will happen because the network will continue to reject such an irrational proposal that has no basis in economic theory, just like its been rejecting such proposals all along.

Bu supporters, r/btc crowd, and big blockers such as yourself are all the same, none of them understand economics. They are just vocal and angry at the people that actually do.

This thread is full of this type of people all high fiving each others ignorance.

The One

legendary

Legendary level

Activity: 924

Merit: 1000

Quote from: Quickseller on April 12, 2017, 12:09:13 AM

Quote from: The One on April 12, 2017, 12:03:33 AM

Quote from: jonald_fyookball on April 11, 2017, 11:34:06 PM

Quote from: The One on April 11, 2017, 11:20:37 PM

If i understand this right, if i were to send to b then both a and b must have a channel open and be online. Is that correct?

if you want to send to B with LN, you either have a channel with them, or go through another party like A.

Obviously you need to be online to send anything unless you're going to give someone a thumbdrive.
But generally, the bidreictional payments are P2P, not over bitcoin network except when opening and closing the channel.

My question is do both a and b need to be online?

Yes.

That was i understood but hopefully right. In that case LN is inferior to Bitcoin. Bitcoin is not sensitive to timezones. I can send BTC to a person in USA or Australia at any time and not worry that they are still asleep. With LN i have to wait till they bloody wake up. Sorry but we need a better solution.

Quickseller

copper member

Activity: 2996

Merit: 2374

Quote from: The One on April 12, 2017, 12:03:33 AM

Quote from: jonald_fyookball on April 11, 2017, 11:34:06 PM

Quote from: The One on April 11, 2017, 11:20:37 PM

If i understand this right, if i were to send to b then both a and b must have a channel open and be online. Is that correct?

if you want to send to B with LN, you either have a channel with them, or go through another party like A.

Obviously you need to be online to send anything unless you're going to give someone a thumbdrive.
But generally, the bidreictional payments are P2P, not over bitcoin network except when opening and closing the channel.

My question is do both a and b need to be online?

Yes.

The One

legendary

Legendary level

Activity: 924

Merit: 1000

Quote from: jonald_fyookball on April 11, 2017, 11:34:06 PM

Quote from: The One on April 11, 2017, 11:20:37 PM

If i understand this right, if i were to send to b then both a and b must have a channel open and be online. Is that correct?

if you want to send to B with LN, you either have a channel with them, or go through another party like A.

Obviously you need to be online to send anything unless you're going to give someone a thumbdrive.
But generally, the bidreictional payments are P2P, not over bitcoin network except when opening and closing the channel.

My question is do both a and b need to be online?

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