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Topic: GAW / Josh Garza discussion Paycoin XPY xpy.io ION ionomy. ALWAYS MAKE MONEY :) - page 2441. (Read 3376953 times)

member
Activity: 86
Merit: 10
CEO's Troll FUD Guide:

https://hashtalk.org/topic/18616

Quote
GAW_CEO
Admins
Global Moderator
Industry Innovator

Notice: Troll FUD Guide

I typically just ignore trolls. But, I know it creates confusion, especially to people that are new. So I want to arm you with facts :grinning:

Like any company we get our fair share of trolls. In our case, they primarily live under the btctalk and reddit bridge. They will use words like scam, ponzi, etc. More recently, they are asking other trolls to file reports against us with the SEC, etc. Don't let them scare you, that' their job. And a troll is not doing their job if they are not creating issues.

The most important thing in coming to your own conclusions is evidence and context.

Context
Always look at the trolls post history. You will find that about 80% of them post the same thing over and over again. More importantly, it will be the only thing they ever post about. What does that tell you? Thats called a troll.

The inverse is also quite true too. If you see, what seems to be, a troll post something negative and generally their comment history is reasonable. Then thats something to take more seriously.

Facts and Evidence
Always look for facts and evidence. When a troll alleges we have done X wrong, ask them to provide some evidence. They will either provide none, and just tell you they "know" its true. Or they will try the "well they have not proven other wise" approach. Luckily, we live in a country where you do not automatically become guilty of something because you have chosen to not respond :grinning:

Let me share something with you all (and trolls).

My attorneys regularly deal with all these agencies (FTC, FCC, etc). In almost all cases, the only times these guys get involved is when a loss happens. In other words, something has to go wrong before they act.

For example, with BFL or MT Gox. In those cases there was a loss. People lost money, that was their claim.

None of these departments will do anything when there is no claim.You can report anything you want for any reason. You can tell them "I think something is going on over there" (which is what all these guys are doing), and they are going to say "ok, let me know when something is a issue"

For example, take a look at this guy:
https://miningadvocates.org/forums/showthread.php?tid=11

"Confirmed"? By the vary nature of filing a report makes it confirmed. So it already starts off making no sense (he does it to create the illusion of sounding important). Notice the rest of it "Formal Securities Fraud Investigation Requested with the SEC "

Anyone can do that for any reason. I could, literally, go down to the pizza shop next store, make up a reason, and file a report on them. It means nothing. There has to be an actual loss.

When you look at what these trolls write, you will see one thing in common. There is no actual loss. The closest thing would be accounts that got put on hold (which were put on holds for reason). But, notice that none of these guys bring up any dollar amount. Its because they don't have one and nothing has been taken. In fact, most of these guys still do business with us!

GAW has never taken anything from someone and not given them what the purchased. If this ever becomes the case email our support email address and attention it to me, and I will address myself.

Does this make sense? Next time your dealing with a troll, just link them here.

This guys really more of a moron than we give him credit for. "they primarily live under the btctalk and reddit bridge" does he mean the other forums that he cant sensor like hashtalk? Everything this guy writes is just smoke and fucking mirrors.
legendary
Activity: 3654
Merit: 8909
https://bpip.org
CEO's Troll FUD Guide:

https://hashtalk.org/topic/18616

Quote
GAW_CEO
Admins
Global Moderator
Industry Innovator

Notice: Troll FUD Guide

I typically just ignore trolls. But, I know it creates confusion, especially to people that are new. So I want to arm you with facts :grinning:

Like any company we get our fair share of trolls. In our case, they primarily live under the btctalk and reddit bridge. They will use words like scam, ponzi, etc. More recently, they are asking other trolls to file reports against us with the SEC, etc. Don't let them scare you, that' their job. And a troll is not doing their job if they are not creating issues.

The most important thing in coming to your own conclusions is evidence and context.

Context
Always look at the trolls post history. You will find that about 80% of them post the same thing over and over again. More importantly, it will be the only thing they ever post about. What does that tell you? Thats called a troll.

The inverse is also quite true too. If you see, what seems to be, a troll post something negative and generally their comment history is reasonable. Then thats something to take more seriously.

Facts and Evidence
Always look for facts and evidence. When a troll alleges we have done X wrong, ask them to provide some evidence. They will either provide none, and just tell you they "know" its true. Or they will try the "well they have not proven other wise" approach. Luckily, we live in a country where you do not automatically become guilty of something because you have chosen to not respond :grinning:

Let me share something with you all (and trolls).

My attorneys regularly deal with all these agencies (FTC, FCC, etc). In almost all cases, the only times these guys get involved is when a loss happens. In other words, something has to go wrong before they act.

For example, with BFL or MT Gox. In those cases there was a loss. People lost money, that was their claim.

None of these departments will do anything when there is no claim.You can report anything you want for any reason. You can tell them "I think something is going on over there" (which is what all these guys are doing), and they are going to say "ok, let me know when something is a issue"

For example, take a look at this guy:
https://miningadvocates.org/forums/showthread.php?tid=11

"Confirmed"? By the vary nature of filing a report makes it confirmed. So it already starts off making no sense (he does it to create the illusion of sounding important). Notice the rest of it "Formal Securities Fraud Investigation Requested with the SEC "

Anyone can do that for any reason. I could, literally, go down to the pizza shop next store, make up a reason, and file a report on them. It means nothing. There has to be an actual loss.

When you look at what these trolls write, you will see one thing in common. There is no actual loss. The closest thing would be accounts that got put on hold (which were put on holds for reason). But, notice that none of these guys bring up any dollar amount. Its because they don't have one and nothing has been taken. In fact, most of these guys still do business with us!

GAW has never taken anything from someone and not given them what the purchased. If this ever becomes the case email our support email address and attention it to me, and I will address myself.

Does this make sense? Next time your dealing with a troll, just link them here.
hero member
Activity: 770
Merit: 509
One of the better posts I've read so far. I like what they're doing, although the hashcoin concept can be a bit difficult to comprehend.
If they are really backed by whales, chances are they will succeed. Josh is doing a good job as the face of the company because he's constantly in the center of attention. Some people like him and some don't but they all keep talking about him and following his messages.
I'm ready to watch the show Smiley

What exactly do you like about it?

What features other than the promise of profit/success?
member
Activity: 86
Merit: 10
"Never go full ponzi!" Holy hell, I can't stop laughing! Smiley This is some good reading.  http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2l82kd/gaw_miners_to_ipo_hashcoin_guarantees_returns_of/
sr. member
Activity: 434
Merit: 259
Looks like a lot of the industry hardware players are joining forces and taking a stance as well. Even if I am not a huge fan of Zeus, I applaud their latest partnership with Gridseed and the message they are all trying to send.

Scott-

http://i.imgur.com/mAoa9M6.png

Nice...looks like all those challenges are aimed at gaw lol

And hot damn the brainwashed ppl unite https://hashtalk.org/topic/18558/zeushash-advocates-transparence-in-mining-industry/11
Let's see what HashTitan's followers say when Bitmain makes the full-transition and joins the group/alliance on a public level.

Scott-
hero member
Activity: 672
Merit: 500
ADAMANT — the most secure and anonymous messenger
Looks like a lot of the industry hardware players are joining forces and taking a stance as well. Even if I am not a huge fan of Zeus, I applaud their latest partnership with Gridseed and the message they are all trying to send.

Scott-


wow just seeing this makes me so proud almost brings tear to my eyes of joy. I doubt many companies will do th echallage for security reasons or they cants disclose the magical code they use to produce better hash results. I also applaud all this companies for all the good efforts to be more customer service friendly. Only thing left is for them to run the mining farms of renewable green energy that would be awsome. Future of energy powering the future of financial world  Smiley
hero member
Activity: 784
Merit: 504
Dream become broken often
Looks like a lot of the industry hardware players are joining forces and taking a stance as well. Even if I am not a huge fan of Zeus, I applaud their latest partnership with Gridseed and the message they are all trying to send.

Scott-

http://i.imgur.com/mAoa9M6.png

Nice...looks like all those challenges are aimed at gaw lol

And hot damn the brainwashed ppl unite https://hashtalk.org/topic/18558/zeushash-advocates-transparence-in-mining-industry/11
sr. member
Activity: 323
Merit: 250
Who found out the Cantor Fitzgerald connection in the old thread? Sorry, I'm too lazy to look it up.

Well, congratulations, it's confirmed:

https://twitter.com/gawceo/status/534544726402564096

Quote
Looking forward to our meeting with the guys at Cantor Fitzgerald tomorrow

Thanks =)
full member
Activity: 140
Merit: 101
Does a "Digital Cloud Miner (DCM)" fall under the definition?  From what I can tell the product is marketed as miner rental, not a security.  I have an "investment" in CoinTerra and BFL in that I own and operate their hardware, I don't see the wording here implying this is anything other than hardware rental (even if it might be rental of a rental).

Anywho, I must sleep, I'm off for a bit.

I'll leave this for when you wake up Smiley

http://www.gawminers.com/pages/terms-conditions
https://zenminer.com/cloud/terms.html

Bonus points for spotting differences between the above and the older versions here, they tend to tweak them regularly:

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.9401341

To me it looks like they have been rewording the "virtual" parts of hashlet definition to make it look LESS like a security, but I might be wrong.


I think you have the right of it. It appears that their lawyers had them change the wording in an attempt to make sure their products would not be considered securties under either the '33 law or the '34 act.
legendary
Activity: 3654
Merit: 8909
https://bpip.org
Does a "Digital Cloud Miner (DCM)" fall under the definition?  From what I can tell the product is marketed as miner rental, not a security.  I have an "investment" in CoinTerra and BFL in that I own and operate their hardware, I don't see the wording here implying this is anything other than hardware rental (even if it might be rental of a rental).

Anywho, I must sleep, I'm off for a bit.

I'll leave this for when you wake up Smiley

http://www.gawminers.com/pages/terms-conditions
https://zenminer.com/cloud/terms.html

Bonus points for spotting differences between the above and the older versions here, they tend to tweak them regularly:

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.9401341

To me it looks like they have been rewording the "virtual" parts of hashlet definition to make it look LESS like a security, but I might be wrong.
legendary
Activity: 3654
Merit: 8909
https://bpip.org
I thought they had been in business longer than that ... when did Gridseeds come out?  I remember considering getting LTC miners from them a long while back, has it only been half a year?  I suppose I thought they were around when I could still use a BFL Single to mine ... I forget they are a lot more recent.

Gridseeds came out in January I think. GAW started selling them in March. In August, i.e. 5 months later they started the hashlet thing.

tf, not all of their sales were drop shipped. They did some distribution here in the US, and their current datacenter in Hattiesburg seems to have started as a shipping warehouse.

They did fail quite miserably though with the logistics. Couldn't quite master how to ship on time or how to handle returns or how to provide customer support.
legendary
Activity: 3654
Merit: 8909
https://bpip.org
I have to admire his marketing genius. Say what you want, but he has changed the rules on his customers and instead of complaining they (by and large) are thanking him for the opportunity.

You mean on hashtalk? The place you've been banned from? Smiley

I don't know if a CEO trolling and moderating his own forum is really such a marketing genius. It just makes for a very stark contrast between what's on hashtalk and what's outside of it.

But overall yes, I have to agree with the general idea that this whole thing hangs on marketing. It's possible I guess to prop it up long enough for something tangible to come out of it, just like hashlets became antminers three months later.

hero member
Activity: 770
Merit: 509
It's considered a security.

Securities Act of 1933:

Quote
(1) The term “security” means any note, stock, treasury stock, security future, security-based swap, bond, debenture, evidence of indebtedness, certificate of interest or participation in any profit-sharing agreement, collateral-trust certificate, preorganization certificate or subscription, transferable share, investment contract, voting-trust certificate, certificate of deposit for a security, fractional undivided interest in oil, gas, or other mineral rights, any put, call, straddle, option, or privilege on any security, certificate of deposit, or group or index of securities (including any interest therein or based on the value thereof), or any put, call, straddle, option, or privilege entered into on a national securities exchange relating to foreign currency, or, in general, any interest or instrument commonly known as a “security”, or any certificate of interest or participation in, temporary or interim certificate for, receipt for, guarantee of, or warrant or right to subscribe to or purchase, any of the foregoing.


Quote from: GAW website
This is guarantees your investment is protected and secure
http://www.gawminers.com/pages/hashlet/

Does a "Digital Cloud Miner (DCM)" fall under the definition?  From what I can tell the product is marketed as miner rental, not a security.  I have an "investment" in CoinTerra and BFL in that I own and operate their hardware, I don't see the wording here implying this is anything other than hardware rental (even if it might be rental of a rental).

Anywho, I must sleep, I'm off for a bit.

The thing is, it doesn't matter how you word it. Participating in any profit sharing agreement is by definition a security.
member
Activity: 95
Merit: 10
That guy, you know, with the face
It's considered a security.

Securities Act of 1933:

Quote
(1) The term “security” means any note, stock, treasury stock, security future, security-based swap, bond, debenture, evidence of indebtedness, certificate of interest or participation in any profit-sharing agreement, collateral-trust certificate, preorganization certificate or subscription, transferable share, investment contract, voting-trust certificate, certificate of deposit for a security, fractional undivided interest in oil, gas, or other mineral rights, any put, call, straddle, option, or privilege on any security, certificate of deposit, or group or index of securities (including any interest therein or based on the value thereof), or any put, call, straddle, option, or privilege entered into on a national securities exchange relating to foreign currency, or, in general, any interest or instrument commonly known as a “security”, or any certificate of interest or participation in, temporary or interim certificate for, receipt for, guarantee of, or warrant or right to subscribe to or purchase, any of the foregoing.


Quote from: GAW website
This is guarantees your investment is protected and secure
http://www.gawminers.com/pages/hashlet/

Does a "Digital Cloud Miner (DCM)" fall under the definition?  From what I can tell the product is marketed as miner rental, not a security.  I have an "investment" in CoinTerra and BFL in that I own and operate their hardware, I don't see the wording here implying this is anything other than hardware rental (even if it might be rental of a rental).

Anywho, I must sleep, I'm off for a bit.
full member
Activity: 322
Merit: 100
DATABLOCKCHAIN.IO SALE IS LIVE | MVP @ DBC.IO
It's considered a security.

Securities Act of 1933:

Quote
(1) The term “security” means any note, stock, treasury stock, security future, security-based swap, bond, debenture, evidence of indebtedness, certificate of interest or participation in any profit-sharing agreement, collateral-trust certificate, preorganization certificate or subscription, transferable share, investment contract, voting-trust certificate, certificate of deposit for a security, fractional undivided interest in oil, gas, or other mineral rights, any put, call, straddle, option, or privilege on any security, certificate of deposit, or group or index of securities (including any interest therein or based on the value thereof), or any put, call, straddle, option, or privilege entered into on a national securities exchange relating to foreign currency, or, in general, any interest or instrument commonly known as a “security”, or any certificate of interest or participation in, temporary or interim certificate for, receipt for, guarantee of, or warrant or right to subscribe to or purchase, any of the foregoing.


Quote from: GAW website
This is guarantees your investment is protected and secure
http://www.gawminers.com/pages/hashlet/
member
Activity: 95
Merit: 10
That guy, you know, with the face
I have yet to see any evidence of any securities violations, and I have spent nearly my entire career in the investment industry.

What about selling unregistered securities?

I don't believe even by SEC definitions that Hashlets are securities.

Edit: I haven't yet researched that definition either, but that will be for tomorrow, it is 4:30am here, and I'm pretty wiped.  I'll be eager to look at it tomorrow if I have time during/after work.
full member
Activity: 140
Merit: 101
I have yet to see any evidence of any securities violations, and I have spent nearly my entire career in the investment industry.

What about selling unregistered securities?

While open to interpretation due to the nature of crypto, I don't see any evidence that GAW has ever sold any securities.
hero member
Activity: 770
Merit: 509
I have yet to see any evidence of any securities violations, and I have spent nearly my entire career in the investment industry.

What about selling unregistered securities?
full member
Activity: 140
Merit: 101
Well to put my cards on the table right off:
1: I am heavily invested in GAW miners Hashlets
2: I have been banned from hashtalk (for pointing out that one of their largest customers was engaging in what I believe to an illeagal acitvity on their site)

I think Garza has some very good and innovative ideas about moving crypto to the mainstream. He is young and makes some rookie blunders. His ego and temper are both a bit larger than average.
I have to admire his marketing genius. Say what you want, but he has changed the rules on his customers and instead of complaining they (by and large) are thanking him for the opportunity.
Now THAT is marketing.
I have yet to see any evidence of any securities violations, and I have spent nearly my entire career in the investment industry.
In my opinion hashlets and the new paycoin have a somewhat better than 50/50 chance of actually working.
I believe it largely depends on enough advertising and media coverage to get non-early adopters and non-technically minded people interested enough to give it a try.
In six months all of the haranguing and teeth gnashing will be moot.

Just my 2 Satoshis.
vip
Activity: 1316
Merit: 1043
👻
@jimmothy

The thing is GAW has been a legit business in mining equipment for quite a while, and the Garza won't get a slap on his wrist if this blows up in his face.

No they haven't. They resold dropshipped stuff.

It literally costed them $0 in capital. You buy something from GAW's store, Zeus ships it to them. They didn't buy hardware from Zeus, they just resold it getting a % of every sale with their own branded miners.

@$username:

If he fails to back up his claims, he is commiting fraud and illegal profiteering on a mass scale.  It is unethical to mislead with false implications, it is illegal to mislead with explicitly false claims.

Read their terms of service first. They explicitly state that their hardware doesn't cover their miners and they 'may not' be mining. A 'may not' is always a negative inference.
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