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Topic: GBTC Bitcoin Investment Trust Observer - page 22. (Read 262354 times)

legendary
Activity: 2156
Merit: 1072
Crypto is the separation of Power and State.
When my non-retirement BTC and retirement GBTC combined values exceed something like 20% of my total wealth then I will consider taking some profits *but* where does one park it?  I'm looking for a better investment than Money 2.0?  Tough.

Diversify Money 2.0 profits in gold/silver (Money 1.0) and Monero (Money 3.0).

Re-balance as needed to avoid being under/over-exposed to any one sector.
hero member
Activity: 709
Merit: 503
I got in through BITS at around $700/BTC which is like $70/GBTC so I am indeed happy to see the exchange rate north of that *but* it is just a paper gain until it is sold.  Or is it?  Wisdom says exit an investment after a gain (sell high) but what if higher is coming?  Wisdom says pigs get fat, hogs get slaughtered and that can be a very real concern.  I'm watching the percentages of my investments.  When my non-retirement BTC and retirement GBTC combined values exceed something like 20% of my total wealth then I will consider taking some profits *but* where does one park it?  I'm looking for a better investment than Money 2.0?  Tough.
sr. member
Activity: 358
Merit: 250
$94.50 todays high  Shocked

I remember some people talking about buying in at something like $31 and getting friends to buy in too, quite the investment huh, triple your money in such a short time. People talk about the premium but 3x your money is a better return than if you'd bought coins normally, we've only gone up about 2.5x
legendary
Activity: 3052
Merit: 1534
www.ixcoin.net

COIN.  COIN is the one that's gonna blow the top off it all.
hero member
Activity: 560
Merit: 501
if BTC holds up through Monday - wonder what the GBTC opens at?
60% premium would be over $80 per share

It touched $80 for a bit there.

So why is no one (or at least not enought people) arbitraging the latter?

I think it has to do with being locked into the investment for 12 months or something.. so arb'ing is impossible apparently.

yeah there's huge restrictions to BIT.

you have to have a lot of money, you can't sell shares until after a long period of time has passed, and i think you have to meet some requirements before you are even allowed to buy in the first place.

it's not a liquid market at all

So there is basically no interest in comparing both, and if there was one, GBTC would be like one of the most lagging indicator for btc ? Roll Eyes
legendary
Activity: 3556
Merit: 9709
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I remember thinking this would be bullish for bitcoin, turns out it's nothing to be interested in.
legendary
Activity: 1106
Merit: 1005
if BTC holds up through Monday - wonder what the GBTC opens at?
60% premium would be over $80 per share

It touched $80 for a bit there.

So why is no one (or at least not enought people) arbitraging the latter?

I think it has to do with being locked into the investment for 12 months or something.. so arb'ing is impossible apparently.

yeah there's huge restrictions to BIT.

you have to have a lot of money, you can't sell shares until after a long period of time has passed, and i think you have to meet some requirements before you are even allowed to buy in the first place.

it's not a liquid market at all
legendary
Activity: 3920
Merit: 2349
Eadem mutata resurgo
if BTC holds up through Monday - wonder what the GBTC opens at?
60% premium would be over $80 per share

It touched $80 for a bit there.

So why is no one (or at least not enought people) arbitraging the latter?

I think it has to do with being locked into the investment for 12 months or something.. so arb'ing is impossible apparently.

so it is in essence acting like 1 year call option on bitcoin price and that makes more sense for its current premium than the IRA tax advantage explanation (which may contribute to the premium but not that much imo).
hero member
Activity: 707
Merit: 500
if BTC holds up through Monday - wonder what the GBTC opens at?
60% premium would be over $80 per share

It touched $80 for a bit there.

So why is no one (or at least not enought people) arbitraging the latter?

I think it has to do with being locked into the investment for 12 months or something.. so arb'ing is impossible apparently.
hero member
Activity: 560
Merit: 501
if BTC holds up through Monday - wonder what the GBTC opens at?
60% premium would be over $80 per share

It touched $80 for a bit there.

So why is no one (or at least not enought people) arbitraging the latter?
legendary
Activity: 1762
Merit: 1011
if BTC holds up through Monday - wonder what the GBTC opens at?
60% premium would be over $80 per share

It touched $80 for a bit there.
full member
Activity: 219
Merit: 100
if BTC holds up through Monday - wonder what the GBTC opens at?
60% premium would be over $80 per share
full member
Activity: 219
Merit: 100
this thing has moved in both directions prior to BTC underlying movements

right now,  it is saying BTC will go up
hero member
Activity: 707
Merit: 500
legendary
Activity: 1762
Merit: 1011
full member
Activity: 219
Merit: 100
good volume - spreads are pretty
full member
Activity: 219
Merit: 100
you can still pseudo arb this if you think the premium is too large

1)  sell the GBTC  (provided you own it)
2)  use proceeds to buy 'physical' btc

if you are correct and the spread decreases - you can use the proceeds in #1 to buy GBTC and sell #2 to cover the cost

not perfect though - you lose out if the spread increases  + you don't get the magic premium that happens when you transfer from the BIT fund to GBTC...but you need to wait 12 months for that one

Of course, but a key rationale for owning GBTC is owning it in a 401k / IRA.  It is hard to buy bitcoin in those funds.  You could buy direct from bitcoin investment trust at NAV, but you have to be an accredited investor and then hold for at least a year.  And you'd have to have self administered fund, you couldn't do it through a company 401k.

There are other ways of getting direct bitcoin into a self-administered IRA, but it is fairly complicated.

I hear ya- trying to defer on the tax- but hey,  never forget... better to make money and pay tax than not make the money at all
sr. member
Activity: 248
Merit: 250
you can still pseudo arb this if you think the premium is too large

1)  sell the GBTC  (provided you own it)
2)  use proceeds to buy 'physical' btc

if you are correct and the spread decreases - you can use the proceeds in #1 to buy GBTC and sell #2 to cover the cost

not perfect though - you lose out if the spread increases  + you don't get the magic premium that happens when you transfer from the BIT fund to GBTC...but you need to wait 12 months for that one

Of course, but a key rationale for owning GBTC is owning it in a 401k / IRA.  It is hard to buy bitcoin in those funds.  You could buy direct from bitcoin investment trust at NAV, but you have to be an accredited investor and then hold for at least a year.  And you'd have to have self administered fund, you couldn't do it through a company 401k.

There are other ways of getting direct bitcoin into a self-administered IRA, but it is fairly complicated.
full member
Activity: 219
Merit: 100
you can still pseudo arb this if you think the premium is too large

1)  sell the GBTC  (provided you own it)
2)  use proceeds to buy 'physical' btc

if you are correct and the spread decreases - you can use the proceeds in #1 to buy GBTC and sell #2 to cover the cost

not perfect though - you lose out if the spread increases  + you don't get the magic premium that happens when you transfer from the BIT fund to GBTC...but you need to wait 12 months for that one
sr. member
Activity: 248
Merit: 250
All new investments (including follow-on by existing investors)  are subject to 12 month holding period
That doesn't match what I was told.  I have sent an email to Grayscale asking for clarification and will post the response here when I get it.
My bad; per Rule 144 http://www.investopedia.com/terms/r/rule144.asp there is a 12 month holding period effectively making arbitrage way too slow.

It will be an interesting dynamic for GBTC if the Winklevoss ETF (COIN) suddenly gets traction.

As COIN is going through a full listing process instead of relying on the 144 loophole, it will not have the same arbitrage issues as with GBTC.  So it should have very little - or at least, much less - spread between market price and NAV.

And COIN will be purchasable in the same 401k / Roth / IRA accounts as GBTC.  And those accounts grow tax free, so you won't take a tax hit if you sell GBTC to buy COIN.

So once COIN is trading, the GBTC premium should evaporate.

However, if COIN starts to show traction, bitcoin may have a run, and GBTC's premium might be maintained for some period of time by people who want to capture that run without buying bitcoin directly, or if 401k type accounts.
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