Germany League - Bundesliga Prediction Thread - page 175.

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Quote from: Pandorak on October 04, 2024, 07:28:28 PM

Quote from: Docnaster on October 04, 2024, 05:41:16 PM

[...] Personally, I'm of the opinion that Bayern Munich will get the better of their opponents this weekend but will like to read your opinions

Since the draw with Bayer Leverkusen, they have another disappointing result in the Champions League when they met Aston Villa. Losing to a team like Aston Villa is a failure in my opinion, even though Aston Villa were playing at home, Bayern Munich should have at least been able to get 1 point.

In Bayern Munich's domestic match this week, they will also only face Eintracht Frankfurt, they should be able to win, but let's see, whether they get disappointing results again like the previous 2 matches or not.

Bayern Munich has shown signs of weakness. They dropped points in a 1-1 draw with Leverkusen last weekend and defeated Aston Villa in the Champions League. I believe Eintracht Frankfurt will defeat Bayern Munich, they will enjoy the feeling of standing at the top of the Bundesliga for the first time since the 1999/00 season. In the last 5 times welcoming Bayern, Eintracht Frankfurt also showed that they are not mediocre when they forced their opponents to accept defeat 3 times. If they continue to show such good luck against Bayern at home, the goal of winning seems not too far away for coach Toppmoller's team. Eintracht Frankfurt are likely to force Bayern to accept a second consecutive defeat.

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Quote from: Dewi Aries on October 04, 2024, 02:41:25 PM

Today we will watch the match between Leverkusen vs Holstein Kiel, and I think this is a fairly easy match for Xabi Alonso's squad because the difference in performance between the two clubs is very far, we know how strong Leverkusen is and as we see that Holstein Kiel is a new team that started their season very badly which made them have to be at the bottom of the standings. Another reason why I said that this is an easy match for Xabi Alonso is because they will be the host in this match, so I am very confident that Leverkusen will succeed in getting three full points, and if in the end that happens then they will be able to shift Frankfurt's position which is below Bayern Munich, this will be a good shift.

I take under 5.25 for Leverkusen vs Holstein Kiel. This is my first time to see Leverkusen face Holstein Kiel. And it seems to me they're gonna win the game with a huge margin. Their opponent, Holstein Kiel, was in the relegation zone, had scored 7 goals and conceded 17.

This proves that Leverkusen can penetrate Holstein Kiel easily in this game. I expect they are gonna win with at least a 2-goal difference. It's most probably 4-0 for them to win the game.

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Quote from: Docnaster on October 04, 2024, 05:41:16 PM

[...] Personally, I'm of the opinion that Bayern Munich will get the better of their opponents this weekend but will like to read your opinions

Since the draw with Bayer Leverkusen, they have another disappointing result in the Champions League when they met Aston Villa. Losing to a team like Aston Villa is a failure in my opinion, even though Aston Villa were playing at home, Bayern Munich should have at least been able to get 1 point.

In Bayern Munich's domestic match this week, they will also only face Eintracht Frankfurt, they should be able to win, but let's see, whether they get disappointing results again like the previous 2 matches or not.

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Quote from: knowngunman on October 04, 2024, 04:41:16 PM

Monchengladbach is not longer the same as they were before since last season. They are yet to put things in the right order and today's result is another prove that their performance is declining. Monchengladbach lost to Augsburg with a scoreline of 2-1.

Mönchengladbach's performance has indeed declined quite a bit since the 2022/2024 season. Even last season, they could only finish in 14th position, and this season, there has been quite good movement. However, their consistency still needs to be improved in order to optimize all the chances they have to win.

Source: Claude-Maurice (No.20) buries Augsburg's decisive second goal
The result was almost a draw, but fortunately a decisive goal by Alexis Claude Maurice really saved Augsburg.

However, in the match against Augsburg, Mönchengladbach missed many chances. Augsburg didn't play that well, only their counterattacks worked effectively. Meanwhile, Mönchengladbach still couldn't handle it well, even making quite a blunder when they started to bring the ball into the middle, which was finally thwarted by Augsburg players quite easily.

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Quote from: Docnaster on October 04, 2024, 05:41:16 PM

Before Bayern Munich draw at home to Xabi Alonso's Bayer Leverkusen last weekend, the current German Bundesliga leaders have scored 20 goals in their most previous three games in all competitions but since their meeting with the reigning German champions, they've been able to find the back of the just once. Is this a major concern for Vincent Kompany's men? Or do you think they'll bounce back to their convincing winning ways when they travel to Eintracht Frankfurt on Sunday?

Personally, I'm of the opinion that Bayern Munich will get the better of their opponents this weekend but will like to read your opinions

This is football and anything can happen and anything that tends to happen will still depend on how they approach any of the games they’ll be playing afterwards. They may not be able to score plenty of goals by weekend when they play against Frankfurt but will do in their upcoming matches after that one. That is not to say, they’re are already declining in performance, that’s the nature of football. Keeping up with a consistent performance is very derailing and only few teams can do that till the end. I still have trust in Kompany’s players and also on his strategies, he’ll do well as the head coach and this is just the beginning as we will get to see better performances by the players in their upcoming games.

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Before Bayern Munich draw at home to Xabi Alonso's Bayer Leverkusen last weekend, the current German Bundesliga leaders have scored 20 goals in their most previous three games in all competitions but since their meeting with the reigning German champions, they've been able to find the back of the just once. Is this a major concern for Vincent Kompany's men? Or do you think they'll bounce back to their convincing winning ways when they travel to Eintracht Frankfurt on Sunday?

Personally, I'm of the opinion that Bayern Munich will get the better of their opponents this weekend but will like to read your opinions

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Quote from: Asiska02 on October 04, 2024, 05:07:37 PM

Quote from: Pokapoka124 on October 04, 2024, 05:03:17 PM

There is a saying that goes “ a leopard never changes it’s spots.” It is only a matter of time before Dortmund start selling out their key players again. You may think that they have changed and are focused now on grooming players for the club not for business. Now they have Adeyemi who is in hot form for Dortmund, I learnt he scored a hatrick in their last champions league game. We shall see in the next summer window if they will be able to resist good offers when they start coming.

If they are for the business, then why not still sell him out to make them a good sum of money. They’ve been doing this for a very long time now and if the team hasn’t been sold to another person to handle the affairs of the team. I feel this is what we will continue to see till the end of time from now. Dortmund are for business and they’ve made it clear for all, unless they change their stance and not sell their good players in the next transfer window, I won’t believe that they won’t be selling their best players in the next transfer window when the good offer comes for it.

In terms of winning trophies, it is no wonder that this step always makes Dortmund lose. Of course, in terms of finance, they can get big profits from the sale of talented young players. I also assume that this tradition continues until now, and it is indeed quite difficult to change it, unless Dortmund changes ownership. Maybe Dortmund could have won various trophies in the last decade if they had kept their star players, so that fans would not feel disappointed every season. Dortmund manager, whoever it is, must work extra hard every season to stabilize the squad, and find ways to speed up adaptation within the team.

From this background, we can underline that Dormund always has difficulty becoming a trophy challenger, and indirectly makes it easier for Bayern Munchen to continue to dominate the Bundesliga. Last season the story was a little different with Leverkusen appearing stunning and undefeated. Leverkusen managed to do a job that Dortmund was unable to do for more than a decade, namely taking the trophy from Bayern Munchen. Dortmund fate will not change, as long as they do not change their policies the transfer.

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Quote from: Asiska02 on October 04, 2024, 05:07:37 PM

If they are for the business, then why not still sell him out to make them a good sum of money. They’ve been doing this for a very long time now and if the team hasn’t been sold to another person to handle the affairs of the team. I feel this is what we will continue to see till the end of time from now. Dortmund are for business and they’ve made it clear for all, unless they change their stance and not sell their good players in the next transfer window, I won’t believe that they won’t be selling their best players in the next transfer window when the good offer comes for it.

Wining trophies are also part of the business so not selling a player because they feel its going to affect their chances of wining a trophy this season if that to them is a priority this season then it is very okay not to want to sell of the player at the time till the season is over till they get that which they aim to achieve this season and if not they are going to let go of the the player by selling him off to still make that money they would have made having him around so which ever way they are still in business regardless, it doesnt necessarily have to be only when they sell players off to another team before we assume Dortmund is in business just that their case has got a policy that allows them to implement that almost always.

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Quote from: Pokapoka124 on October 04, 2024, 05:03:17 PM

Quote from: LUCKMCFLY on October 04, 2024, 10:36:17 AM

Quote from: red4slash on October 03, 2024, 04:51:26 PM

Not a few Dortmund players are labeled with expensive prices because we can take the examples of Lewa, Dembele, Jude, Haaland and many other players come from the foresight of scouts who see the progress of these players to be used as a business by Dortmund to benefit financially.

A few years ago, this was seen a lot in Dortmund, in fact we all speculated that the best thing about Dortmund was the preparation of the best players for the big signings and it was a fact that the club benefited from the sale of those players because their prices were very high, now that has changed a bit, I no longer see Dortmund that way, I see them differently now, I see them as one of the teams that are very good and that can be candidates to win any competition, from a Bundesliga to a UCL with the quality they have shown.

There is a saying that goes “ a leopard never changes it’s spots.” It is only a matter of time before Dortmund start selling out their key players again. You may think that they have changed and are focused now on grooming players for the club not for business. Now they have Adeyemi who is in hot form for Dortmund, I learnt he scored a hatrick in their last champions league game. We shall see in the next summer window if they will be able to resist good offers when they start coming.

It is sacrosanct that Brussia Dortmund won't stop selling out their best players because that's one ways how they mainly raise money for the club, and Adeyemi isn't as sophisticated as either Lewandoski or Haaland and a host of other quality players they didn't hesitate to sell when those offers were made. How they manage to continually stay in the top four of the Bundesliga table each season and not playing so badly even in the champions league competition despite this trade about them is what I applaud them for.

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Quote from: Pokapoka124 on October 04, 2024, 05:03:17 PM

There is a saying that goes “ a leopard never changes it’s spots.” It is only a matter of time before Dortmund start selling out their key players again. You may think that they have changed and are focused now on grooming players for the club not for business. Now they have Adeyemi who is in hot form for Dortmund, I learnt he scored a hatrick in their last champions league game. We shall see in the next summer window if they will be able to resist good offers when they start coming.

If they are for the business, then why not still sell him out to make them a good sum of money. They’ve been doing this for a very long time now and if the team hasn’t been sold to another person to handle the affairs of the team. I feel this is what we will continue to see till the end of time from now. Dortmund are for business and they’ve made it clear for all, unless they change their stance and not sell their good players in the next transfer window, I won’t believe that they won’t be selling their best players in the next transfer window when the good offer comes for it.

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Quote from: LUCKMCFLY on October 04, 2024, 10:36:17 AM

Quote from: red4slash on October 03, 2024, 04:51:26 PM

Not a few Dortmund players are labeled with expensive prices because we can take the examples of Lewa, Dembele, Jude, Haaland and many other players come from the foresight of scouts who see the progress of these players to be used as a business by Dortmund to benefit financially.

A few years ago, this was seen a lot in Dortmund, in fact we all speculated that the best thing about Dortmund was the preparation of the best players for the big signings and it was a fact that the club benefited from the sale of those players because their prices were very high, now that has changed a bit, I no longer see Dortmund that way, I see them differently now, I see them as one of the teams that are very good and that can be candidates to win any competition, from a Bundesliga to a UCL with the quality they have shown.

There is a saying that goes “ a leopard never changes it’s spots.” It is only a matter of time before Dortmund start selling out their key players again. You may think that they have changed and are focused now on grooming players for the club not for business. Now they have Adeyemi who is in hot form for Dortmund, I learnt he scored a hatrick in their last champions league game. We shall see in the next summer window if they will be able to resist good offers when they start coming.

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Quote from: Chilwell on October 04, 2024, 01:32:19 PM

Augsburg vs M'gladbach

Augsburg (confirmed lineup): Nediljko Labrovic, Maximilian Bauer, Jeffrey Gouweleeuw, Keven Schlotterbeck, Marius Wolf, Dimitrios Giannoulis, Frank Onyeka, Kristijan Jakic, Elvis Rexhbecaj, Steve Mounie, Phillip Tietz.

Borussia Monchengladbach (confirmed lineup): Moritz Nicolas, Joseph Scally, Ko Itakura, Nico Elvedi, Luca Netz, Philipp Sander, Julian Weigl, Tomas Cvancara, Kevin Stoeger, Alassane Plea, Tim Kleindienst.

M'gladbach are two points away from Augsburg and they are about to begin the 6th game of the season, Augsburg really need to work on their performance to distance themselves from relegation zone which they only have a point gap away from relegation, Augsburg are the host which I will expect good performances from them but I realise the the both teams are not currently doing well.

Monchengladbach is not longer the same as they were before since last season. They are yet to put things in the right order and today's result is another prove that their performance is declining. Monchengladbach lost to Augsburg with a scoreline of 2-1.

Augsburg once again show us that they are strong in their home with this victory. Borussia gameplan this season is a complete disaster and they can not go far unless they change the game pattern because everything seems to be going backwards now. In fact, it's getting worse after the second game of the season. I don't like putting blame on couch but achieving nothing after two seasons is enough that he's nothing to offer monchengladbach.

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Quote from: Adams0001 on October 04, 2024, 03:13:49 PM

Quote from: minairia3 on October 03, 2024, 11:34:44 PM

Quote from: mv1986 on October 03, 2024, 06:59:31 PM

Is Kompany really the key point. The team has realized that some things have to change. Now they are running into the same problems and I wonder if they will be able to solve those problems. Kane is not the scorer they were hoping for because the scorer they were hoping for scores goals in important games, he doesn't.

I see no way to say that Harry Kane's performance is poor. Harry Kane performed well even though Munich did not win the title last season. And Kane's performance this season is also very good. Kane has 5 goals and 4 assists in 5 Bundesliga games. He also scored four goals in the Champions League. So I don't think there is any weakness in Harry Kane's performance. Bayern Munich won't benefit much from adding Harry Kane's replacement to the squad.

I wouldn't say Bayern Munich lost against Aston Villa with a poor performance. We saw the dominance of Bayern Munich throughout the match. But even then, Munich lost 1-0 in the end. This is Munich's misfortune.

Bayern Munich's match against Aston Villa was really difficult, and Munich performed admirably yet, they did not have the opportunity to win the game, if the Munich goalkeeper had not been coming out and stay for the middle, I doubt they would have scored. Harry Kane is a key player and anyone knows that he doesn't used to get the opportunity to win trophies that is the only problems he used to get in a club, but I am sure this time he will win the Bundesliga title because they are really doing well this season and even Leverkusen that had the opportunity to defeat them last season doesn't get the chance this time, Bayern Munich will do all there possible best and get title this season and Harry kane will achieve is goal because that is only what is looking for currently in the league, and am sure he will achieve the reward this season with bayern Munich because they are really dominating the league competition.

From the performance of Aston Villa and Bayern Munich, you can vividly see that Bayern Munich is not yet in their great form because if they were they wouldn't have fine it too difficult to break the defense line of Aston Villa. I believe the coach of Aston Villa took his time to watch the games of Bayern Munich before his team played against them because ordinarily every one was expecting Bayern Munich to have an easy win since the team has not participated in the Champions League for much . Harry Kane has done well for the team I believe he may not win the champions League but the domestic league this season may be difficult considering the performance of the team in the early stages.

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Quote from: Palakka on October 04, 2024, 10:29:33 AM

Augsburg have had great difficulties in recent matches, especially in terms of their defense and attacking effectiveness in those few matches, the defeat to Leipzig has shown how their defence has become their big weakness , but their condition is very different gladbach who seem to be start to find their current direction of play after the win against Union Berlin, but we also can't deny that gladbach struggle to beat union and even they have to wait until 90+6th minute to win the match, besides that if we look at the head to head meeting of the two teams that are quite balanced, of course the choice to bet on the BTTS option is the right thing, but compared to BTTS I personally would prefer to bet on goals Over 1.5 in the match.

The teams are seriously fighting for the 8 position because even if Augsburg is on the wining side but I cannot really be certain of there staying on that position right now until they finish playing the match because we have seen how most matches this days that was supposed to end with wining turn out to be draw a minute to the end, so nobody knows if such event will happen on this match, they are currently at the 90 minutes now.

In terms of Augsburg matches with Borussia M'gladbach BTT or over 1.5 is usually good because no matter how strong they are against each other's goals always flows and currently they have already scored the above mentioned but in terms of betting either side to win I don't like it because sometimes there matches is not usually how we see it.

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Quote from: minairia3 on October 03, 2024, 11:34:44 PM

Quote from: mv1986 on October 03, 2024, 06:59:31 PM

Is Kompany really the key point. The team has realized that some things have to change. Now they are running into the same problems and I wonder if they will be able to solve those problems. Kane is not the scorer they were hoping for because the scorer they were hoping for scores goals in important games, he doesn't.

I see no way to say that Harry Kane's performance is poor. Harry Kane performed well even though Munich did not win the title last season. And Kane's performance this season is also very good. Kane has 5 goals and 4 assists in 5 Bundesliga games. He also scored four goals in the Champions League. So I don't think there is any weakness in Harry Kane's performance. Bayern Munich won't benefit much from adding Harry Kane's replacement to the squad.

I wouldn't say Bayern Munich lost against Aston Villa with a poor performance. We saw the dominance of Bayern Munich throughout the match. But even then, Munich lost 1-0 in the end. This is Munich's misfortune.

Bayern Munich's match against Aston Villa was really difficult, and Munich performed admirably yet, they did not have the opportunity to win the game, if the Munich goalkeeper had not been coming out and stay for the middle, I doubt they would have scored. Harry Kane is a key player and anyone knows that he doesn't used to get the opportunity to win trophies that is the only problems he used to get in a club, but I am sure this time he will win the Bundesliga title because they are really doing well this season and even Leverkusen that had the opportunity to defeat them last season doesn't get the chance this time, Bayern Munich will do all there possible best and get title this season and Harry kane will achieve is goal because that is only what is looking for currently in the league, and am sure he will achieve the reward this season with bayern Munich because they are really dominating the league competition.

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Today we will watch the match between Leverkusen vs Holstein Kiel, and I think this is a fairly easy match for Xabi Alonso's squad because the difference in performance between the two clubs is very far, we know how strong Leverkusen is and as we see that Holstein Kiel is a new team that started their season very badly which made them have to be at the bottom of the standings. Another reason why I said that this is an easy match for Xabi Alonso is because they will be the host in this match, so I am very confident that Leverkusen will succeed in getting three full points, and if in the end that happens then they will be able to shift Frankfurt's position which is below Bayern Munich, this will be a good shift.

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Quote from: junder on October 04, 2024, 11:35:23 AM

Quote from: Altryist on October 04, 2024, 10:47:02 AM

Quote from: LUCKMCFLY on October 04, 2024, 10:36:17 AM

~~

The fact that they were able to reach the final in the last Champions League is, in addition, a big share of luck, and in the Bundesliga their position was much worse, including because it is difficult for them to achieve good results in several tournaments at the same time. Dortmund is a good team, but I still consider them as suppliers of young talents who strive to show their best in the Champions League, and the Bundesliga has always been a secondary task for them. I think that this season in the Champions League they will achieve a much worse result, and they will not be able to win the Bundesliga either.

Yes, that's how most people see Dortmund and it's very natural, they are successful in selling players but in terms of trophies I think Dortmund is not showing seriousness, the last time they lifted the Bundesliga trophy in the 2011/12 season it was more than a decade ago. I'm not saying they are bad in the sense that I don't doubt Dortmund's strength, they can succeed in the UCL and Bundesliga but it goes back to the management that runs the club to show their seriousness,
And this season Dortmund as usual they are labeled as strong competitors in the Bundesliga but just like you I still hesitate to say Dortmund will succeed this time, especially since most people this season have shifted their focus to Leverkusen under the guidance of Alonso Leverkusen has proven themselves and is able to break Munich's dominance last season.
Dortmund's chances are getting smaller in the domestic league and regarding the UCL I think Dortmund can enter the last 16, only up to that point it won't be any more.

It seems that this season, Dortmund will once again find themselves clap the hands the successes of their competitors, both in the Bundesliga and the Champions League. Nuri Sahin squad is indeed formidable, but many still doubt their ability to challenge for titles, despite their fortunate run to the Champions League final last season. The club management remains unchanged, continuing their practice of promoting young players and then selling them to maintain the club sustainability.
To win the Bundesliga, Dortmund must be able to defeat Bayern Munich and Leverkusen. In the Champions League, of course, they will face even more elite teams. Without meaning to underestimate Dortmund, the reality is that their chances of success this season are relatively low.
I agree, Dortmund will most likely qualify for the round of 16 easily, but to reach the final I think it will be difficult to repeat, although not impossible.

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Quote from: RockBell on October 04, 2024, 02:18:08 PM

Quote from: LUCKMCFLY on October 04, 2024, 10:36:17 AM

A few years ago, this was seen a lot in Dortmund, in fact we all speculated that the best thing about Dortmund was the preparation of the best players for the big signings and it was a fact that the club benefited from the sale of those players because their prices were very high, now that has changed a bit, I no longer see Dortmund that way, I see them differently now, I see them as one of the teams that are very good and that can be candidates to win any competition, from a Bundesliga to a UCL with the quality they have shown.

Dortmund have been doing a lot in the previous season that people are always praising them and Bayern and not the glory they lost is coming back gradually, and they were always breeding good players look at were Haaland is coming from so what do you expect to come from other players. And they keep getting the best signings and that is what they are good at, they are always benefiting from the sell of those players because they sell them with good price.

They are both making money and breeding players to make more money the only difference I see with them is when they, are dropping in performance, but for players they are still trying because they were able to make it to the finals in the ucl last season at list that is a good sign this something that most clubs could not archive and Dortmund was able to, it is quite an archivement because when last did they even make it this far in the ucl so this shows that their is an improvement.

Dortmund with the quality it has managed to maximize big wins in the two Champions League matches it has played so far, with the big wins that Dortmund has in the two matches making Dortmund at the top of the Champions League standings. Because after all, other teams also managed to make two wins but in fact, only the total number of goals that made Dortmund at the top of the Champion League standings. But, in the next match Dortmund will play against Real Madrid and maybe this will be a challenge too because after all, in the previous two matches Dortmund played against Club Brugge and Celtic but against Real Madrid later, it doesn't seem easy for Dortmund to win with a big score like in the previous two matches.

But indeed, Dortmund have better results in the Champions League from last season too because after all, last season too Dortmund played in the Champions League final against Real Madrid. But in the Bundesliga, that Dortmund always failed to get the Bundesliga trophy despite having the chance to get it. Although Dortmund look very good in the Champions League, but I personally feel Dortmund will still be difficult to get trophies in any competition.

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Quote from: LUCKMCFLY on October 04, 2024, 10:36:17 AM

A few years ago, this was seen a lot in Dortmund, in fact we all speculated that the best thing about Dortmund was the preparation of the best players for the big signings and it was a fact that the club benefited from the sale of those players because their prices were very high, now that has changed a bit, I no longer see Dortmund that way, I see them differently now, I see them as one of the teams that are very good and that can be candidates to win any competition, from a Bundesliga to a UCL with the quality they have shown.

Dortmund have been doing a lot in the previous season that people are always praising them and Bayern and not the glory they lost is coming back gradually, and they were always breeding good players look at were Haaland is coming from so what do you expect to come from other players. And they keep getting the best signings and that is what they are good at, they are always benefiting from the sell of those players because they sell them with good price.

They are both making money and breeding players to make more money the only difference I see with them is when they, are dropping in performance, but for players they are still trying because they were able to make it to the finals in the ucl last season at list that is a good sign this something that most clubs could not archive and Dortmund was able to, it is quite an archivement because when last did they even make it this far in the ucl so this shows that their is an improvement.

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Quote from: Ondekinecakabilirim on October 04, 2024, 09:41:06 AM

There is only one match in the German Bundesliga today. Augsburg will play Mönchengladbach. Augsburg were very ineffective against Leipzig last week. They lost 4-0. And they didn't even have a shot on target. Also, they conceded 7 goals in the last two weeks. On the other hand, Mönchengladbach, like Augsburg, didn't start the season well. But last week they managed to beat Union Berlin. And they got their second win this season. Mönchengladbach are looking better than Augsburg in recent weeks. I see them as the favorites. But both teams make too many mistakes in defense and concede too many goals. I will bet on both teams to score in this match.

If you have seen this match then this match was play with very interest and tough competition. In which Augsburg players score 2 goal and on the other hand only 1 goal was score by Monchenglabach players. I have been watch Augsburg for a long time, they win a few match and then lose a few. If they play every match in the right way, they can join the top teams. In the match where they can show more effort and good perform then they will win the match but they should play well and help each other in every match and put more pressure on the opposition team so that they can score less goal. If you look at the matches of Monchengladbach their perform looks really good but they will lose this match which cost them a point. If their players work a little hard they would have score a goal which would have drawn their match.

Topic: Germany League - Bundesliga Prediction Thread - page 175. (Read 661643 times)