Gigamining / Teramining - page 114. | Bitcointalksearch.org

sunnankar

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Quote from: BurtW on June 11, 2012, 11:55:29 PM

So on the 10th someone decided to sell 1026 bonds - and remember that someone also decided to buy these bonds. This represents ony 1026/40,000 = 2.565% of all the bonds at that time.

Then the next day a grand total of 966 bonds - less that the day before - where is this large scale dumping by those recent investors?

Exactly. Prices are set at the margins and the depth bid of GLBSE is not very deep. Plus, a large investor is going to be a 'strong hand' compared to these small investors that are fairly 'weak hands'. They know that if the strong hands had to liquidate their positions then the capability of the GLBSE market to buy would be fairly limited so they are more likely to be long-term holders. Because a price is set by a willing and capable buyer and willing and capable seller to value the holdings of the strong hands at the prices set by the weak hands is likely not very accurate.

BurtW

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All paid signature campaigns should be banned.

Quote from: jamesg on June 09, 2012, 06:40:01 PM

Gigamining is moving to 200Gh in bonds.

More to come.....

This was announced on June 9, this means that he plans to issue a total of 200/5 = 40K bonds

The trading since then has been:

Code:

                        .Open     .High     .Low   .Close .Volume .Adjusted
2012-06-09 23:58:09  1.420000  1.497000 1.401100 1.497000     334  1.440984
2012-06-10 23:33:48  1.411100  1.411100 1.300100 1.300100    1026  1.361202
2012-06-11 15:17:18  1.375000  1.490000 1.010000 1.350000     966  1.406405

So on the 10th someone decided to sell 1026 bonds - and remember that someone also decided to buy these bonds. This represents ony 1026/40,000 = 2.565% of all the bonds at that time.

Where is this "massive selloff" of all the new 20,000 or so bonds that were sold to large investors? In my experience large investors - those with the estimated 20,000x1.25x5.5 => $135K? 130K? or so it takes to buy 20,000 bonds don't go selling willy nilly into a ultra thin market because that would be stupid.

Then the next day a grand total of 966 bonds - less that the day before - where is this large scale dumping by those recent investors?

I just don't see it.

In fact a case could be made, since this is such a small number relative to the 20,000 or so bonds just issued, that it was the small investors driving down the price.

EskimoBob

legendary

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Quality Printing Services by Federal Reserve Bank

Quote from: sunnankar on June 11, 2012, 04:40:53 PM

Quote from: piotr_n on June 11, 2012, 03:44:12 PM

Gigamining is growing - great, it must mean something good, we are all happy!

So maybe now you could turn 5Mhash/share into at least 6Mhash/share?

You must be either illiterate or incredibly naive.

The GIGAMINING bond is a debt instrument with a buyback clause and not an equity interest. As gigavps's operation grows it increases the network hash rate which increases difficulty and decreases the bond coupon thus reducing his debt burden. Everything else being equal the larger gigavps's operation grows the less GIGAMINING bonds are worth per unit. Therefore, it is in gigavps's financial interest to make the GIGAMINING bonds yield the least amount of bitcoins, consequently be worth the least amount possible so that he can then retire the debt instrument through exercising the buyback clause and still perform according to the terms of the bond contract exactly and honestly.

I think you have confused some terminology or are completely missing the point, how bond, its price, coupon and yield are related.

His coupon is "a number of bitcoins equivalent to 100% PPS output of 5 MH/s,"
If difficulty goes up, he will earn less and so will all the bond holders. His debt to mined BTC remains proportionally the same. Will the bond price drop and yield (not coupon!) go up? Who know, because this happens to all the bonds out there.

If his mining operation grows and number of bonds outstanding remain the same, it gets easier for him to pay the promised 100% PPS output of 5 MH/s. Lets not forget, that he will have a bigger reserve to service the debt, hence mined BTC and outstanding debt (bonds and coupon payments) ratio drops. In normal world, this is good news.
Bond are safer now and the price of the bond goes up. If bond price go up, the yield drops but the coupon (100% PPS output of 5 MH/s) stays the same. Do not confuse the yield and "coupon". Price sets the yield to the buyer of the bond.

Now, if his mining operation grows and number of bonds outstanding also grows proportionally, nothing bad really happens and he can keep paying 100% PPS output of 5 MH/s.

If he gets greedy and issues new bonds but mining speed is not increased proportionally to service the additional debt, he can have a problem paying out 100% PPS output of 5 MH/s. In the normal world, the bond price will drop because of the risk, hence the yield will go up to reward the risk of the "coupon" - promise to pay 100% PPS output of 5 MH/s.

sunnankar

legendary

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Quote from: piotr_n on June 11, 2012, 03:44:12 PM

Gigamining is growing - great, it must mean something good, we are all happy!

So maybe now you could turn 5Mhash/share into at least 6Mhash/share?

You must be either illiterate or incredibly naive.

The GIGAMINING bond is a debt instrument with a buyback clause and not an equity interest. As gigavps's operation grows it increases the network hash rate which increases difficulty and decreases the bond coupon thus reducing his debt burden. Everything else being equal the larger gigavps's operation grows the less GIGAMINING bonds are worth per unit. Therefore, it is in gigavps's financial interest to make the GIGAMINING bonds yield the least amount of bitcoins, consequently be worth the least amount possible so that he can then retire the debt instrument through exercising the buyback clause and still perform according to the terms of the bond contract exactly and honestly.

copumpkin

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I'm actually a pineapple

Quote from: piotr_n on June 11, 2012, 03:44:12 PM

Quote from: jamesg on June 11, 2012, 03:15:35 PM

To all gigaminers:

I have taken the time to read the three new pages of posts since I left my hotel room this morning. I understand the concerns of recent market fluctuations and only hope that you can keep confidence both in gigamining and myself.

Gigamining is growing at a rapid rate, and this is was requires my attention at this time.

Best,
gigavps

Gigamining is growing - great, it must mean something good, we are all happy!

So maybe now you could turn 5Mhash/share into at least 6Mhash/share?

We had all the information you needed when buying gigamining to decide whether it was right for us or not, and its terms were clear. Another market player deciding to sell a handful of shares does not mean that gigavps owes us anything more than he's already providing as part of the contract. We have no right to not lose money on the market

piotr_n

legendary

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aka tonikt

Quote from: jamesg on June 11, 2012, 03:15:35 PM

To all gigaminers:

I have taken the time to read the three new pages of posts since I left my hotel room this morning. I understand the concerns of recent market fluctuations and only hope that you can keep confidence both in gigamining and myself.

Gigamining is growing at a rapid rate, and this is was requires my attention at this time.

Best,
gigavps

Gigamining is growing - great, it must mean something good, we are all happy!

So maybe now you could turn 5Mhash/share into at least 6Mhash/share?

Coinoisseur

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Because one is floated in public and one is in private? It's basic market principles, if you blend public and privately floated bonds into one bond then you are clouding the information the public investor needs to make decisions.

Each GLBSE ticker should have it's floats handled within it's given structure. The Pirate pass through bonds that have fixed sunsets are an example of a functional offering (not advocating them as investment just as properly structured).

Quote from: Kluge on June 11, 2012, 01:08:11 PM

Quote from: Coinoisseur on June 11, 2012, 12:51:47 PM

Why do privately issued bonds share the same market heading as publicly issued bonds? As much a GLBSE question as a Gigamining question.

Why would they not? If they were split, and represent the same contract, they would be worth the same (assuming rational markets), and splitting them would only cause inefficiency in the market (and a messier GLBSE portfolio).

redbeans2012

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Activity: 887

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Quote from: ?? on ??

Grow up. Gig offered the bonds publicly, took an unjustified shellacking from nefario when he didn't tip him out, and handled everything in an up-and-up fashion.

Is it unfair to those who bought btc at 5 because some of us spent thousands of dollars buying and mining it from $0.06 to $3?

Always blame yourself for your fuckups and your life will be a lot better. You'll "learn" from your "mistakes" and be in control instead of a perpetual victim.

Guess I didn't see where he offered the bonds publicly. Dont care though, will scoop them up at a cheaper price

jamesg

vip

Activity: 1358

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AKA: gigavps

To all gigaminers:

I have taken the time to read the three new pages of posts since I left my hotel room this morning. I understand the concerns of recent market fluctuations and only hope that you can keep confidence both in gigamining and myself.

Gigamining is growing at a rapid rate, and this is was requires my attention at this time.

Best,
gigavps

piotr_n

legendary

Activity: 2053

Merit: 1356

aka tonikt

Quote from: ?? on ??

Grow up. Gig offered the bonds publicly, took an unjustified shellacking from nefario when he didn't tip him out, and handled everything in an up-and-up fashion.

Is it unfair to those who bought btc at 5 because some of us spent thousands of dollars buying and mining it from $0.06 to $3?

Always blame yourself for your fuckups and your life will be a lot better. You'll "learn" from your "mistakes" and be in control instead of a perpetual victim.

sound like a real prophet

Kluge

donator

Activity: 1218

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Quote from: Coinoisseur on June 11, 2012, 12:51:47 PM

Why do privately issued bonds share the same market heading as publicly issued bonds? As much a GLBSE question as a Gigamining question.

Why would they not? If they were split, and represent the same contract, they would be worth the same (assuming rational markets), and splitting them would only cause inefficiency in the market (and a messier GLBSE portfolio).

stochastic

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piotr_n

legendary

Activity: 2053

Merit: 1356

aka tonikt

Quote from: ?? on ??

Quote from: piotr_n on June 11, 2012, 11:12:35 AM

If I understand what is going on here - please correct me if I'm wrong:
GIGAMINING recently sold 13500 new shares to someone, under the counter, at the price below 1.0 and the new "investor" have decided to make some quick profit by dumping a few thousands of his shares onto the market - right?
Well... that's great - knowing that makes me really happy for buying my GIGAMINING shares at ~1.45. Now I know that you really take a good care about all your small investors and their interest

If this is true it would have been a profoundly stupid thing to have done. I don't believe he did it.

For one thing, it was not necessary. Secondly it will destroy confidence in his issue in several ways.. for one, it will lower his share price permanently both as a result of lost confidence (why should I buy at the current price, just wait for the next deal) and because if you buy in at 0.9, you can turn a quick profit at 1. And 1 is a 33% loss for everyone but you. I don't really believe this was done. i could see 1.25 if all the shares were sold at once. But under 1? Who's that stupid?

That is why I said "correct me if I'm wrong"...
But no one has done it so far - though, there have been many people advocating this kind of approach...

stochastic

hero member

Activity: 532

Merit: 500

Code:

                        .Open     .High     .Low   .Close .Volume .Adjusted
2012-04-10 23:06:58 10.000000 10.000000 1.250000 1.399900     562  1.298217
2012-04-11 23:08:19  1.399900  1.400000 1.201000 1.298000     140  1.331024
2012-04-12 22:01:21  1.298000  1.369000 1.298000 1.369000     105  1.301048
2012-04-13 22:12:31  1.369000  1.399900 1.350000 1.399900      19  1.382742
2012-04-14 23:46:51  1.399900  1.549800 1.399900 1.549000      38  1.434865
2012-04-15 23:25:17  1.549000  1.600000 1.545000 1.550000      87  1.567988
2012-04-16 23:16:32  1.549000  1.600000 1.391000 1.600000      88  1.563457
2012-04-17 22:19:18  1.590000  1.600000 1.550000 1.550000     148  1.593980
2012-04-18 20:34:23  1.530000  1.550000 1.530000 1.549900      18  1.546594
2012-04-19 23:02:09  1.550000  1.590000 1.513000 1.589000     118  1.537614
2012-04-20 13:02:58  1.588000  1.590000 1.588000 1.590000      15  1.588333
2012-04-21 22:54:27  1.581000  1.581000 1.550000 1.550000      36  1.568944
2012-04-22 23:27:02  1.550000  1.550000 1.516000 1.550000     182  1.545712
2012-04-23 22:35:57  1.550000  1.550000 1.500000 1.501000     242  1.545265
2012-04-24 23:26:53  1.500000  1.550000 1.400100 1.489999     355  1.504266
2012-04-25 19:57:59  1.489999  1.510000 1.480000 1.480000    1172  1.501558
2012-04-26 21:26:34  1.480010  1.510000 1.470000 1.510000     761  1.507933
2012-04-27 19:09:37  1.509000  1.510000 1.480000 1.510000     316  1.505361
2012-04-28 20:44:57  1.500000  1.510000 1.480000 1.510000      37  1.486573
2012-04-29 23:36:41  1.510000  1.510000 1.480000 1.510000     394  1.509848
2012-04-30 22:09:57  1.510000  1.510000 1.510000 1.510000      26  1.510000
2012-05-01 23:55:25  1.510000  1.510000 1.490000 1.510000     100  1.505250
2012-05-02 23:28:20  1.490000  1.510000 1.410110 1.509900     153  1.508752
2012-05-03 23:46:55  1.509000  1.510000 1.465000 1.510000     348  1.509267
2012-05-04 21:45:56  1.510000  1.510000 1.467501 1.510000     153  1.495078
2012-05-05 23:27:21  1.510000  1.572000 1.510000 1.570000    1369  1.511736
2012-05-06 21:27:37  1.568600  1.572000 1.540000 1.572000      68  1.564047
2012-05-07 23:19:02  1.571800  1.670000 1.500000 1.510000    1309  1.524814
2012-05-08 23:45:27  1.510000  1.510000 1.400000 1.400000     215  1.485087
2012-05-09 22:31:22  1.401000  1.510000 1.401000 1.500000     199  1.482565
2012-05-10 18:55:01  1.500000  1.500000 1.500000 1.500000     278  1.500000
2012-05-11 22:12:47  1.500000  1.520000 1.500000 1.520000    1183  1.500127
2012-05-12 20:39:48  1.500000  1.549900 1.500000 1.500000     100  1.503601
2012-05-13 23:12:44  1.500000  1.500000 1.480000 1.490000    1059  1.499104
2012-05-14 21:02:39  1.500000  1.510000 1.490000 1.509990     341  1.504702
2012-05-15 23:58:08  1.509900  1.509990 1.509900 1.509990      55  1.509951
2012-05-16 17:34:41  1.509990  1.510000 1.500000 1.510000     138  1.509686
2012-05-17 16:43:49  1.510000  1.519000 1.510000 1.518700      42  1.514064
2012-05-18 21:26:40  1.518600  1.519000 1.400010 1.499990     403  1.480669
2012-05-19 23:53:28  1.499990  1.549800 1.499990 1.549800     160  1.518371
2012-05-20 21:01:34  1.549700  1.549700 1.510000 1.546000     222  1.541210
2012-05-21 23:51:53  1.531500  1.531500 1.490000 1.520000     136  1.521604
2012-05-22 23:29:26  1.500000  1.500000 1.427000 1.490000     194  1.488490
2012-05-23 23:24:43  1.490000  1.500000 1.470000 1.500000     101  1.494455
2012-05-24 23:45:26  1.499000  1.499000 1.490000 1.499000      93  1.498290
2012-05-25 23:55:46  1.486000  1.499000 1.486000 1.498000      36  1.494639
2012-05-26 21:30:31  1.490000  1.498000 1.470000 1.490000     299  1.489575
2012-05-27 23:00:32  1.490000  1.518800 1.440000 1.500000    1039  1.484574
2012-05-28 23:29:23  1.485000  1.500000 1.111000 1.480000     844  1.359453
2012-05-29 21:49:45  1.480000  1.490000 1.380000 1.485000     141  1.445376
2012-05-30 22:03:51  1.485000  1.490000 1.375000 1.487000     431  1.427811
2012-05-31 23:17:23  1.490000  1.499790 1.487000 1.497900     250  1.498004
2012-06-01 23:20:17  1.499460  1.499690 1.455000 1.479690     170  1.489432
2012-06-02 22:57:58  1.479690  1.479690 1.430200 1.479579     357  1.462600
2012-06-03 22:09:56  1.479579  1.479579 1.440100 1.479579     102  1.477660
2012-06-04 23:54:32  1.479579  1.499900 1.390000 1.450000     453  1.450551
2012-06-05 21:58:43  1.480100  1.484780 1.420100 1.480000     270  1.479429
2012-06-06 22:37:27  1.450201  1.518000 1.420000 1.490000     969  1.483023
2012-06-07 23:53:04  1.499300  1.499400 1.460000 1.460000     209  1.478927
2012-06-08 23:45:56  1.460200  1.487900 1.390000 1.420000    1188  1.415520
2012-06-09 23:58:09  1.420000  1.497000 1.401100 1.497000     334  1.440984
2012-06-10 23:33:48  1.411100  1.411100 1.300100 1.300100    1026  1.361202
2012-06-11 15:17:18  1.375000  1.490000 1.010000 1.350000     966  1.406405

Coinoisseur

sr. member

Activity: 336

Merit: 250

Why do privately issued bonds share the same market heading as publicly issued bonds? As much a GLBSE question as a Gigamining question.

piotr_n

legendary

Activity: 2053

Merit: 1356

aka tonikt

Fine - I'm a socialist and I know nothing about economy - call me like this if you will, it doesn't sound offensive to me.

And moreover, I will keep these few tens of bonds, hoping that the dividends will pay me up the difference one day...
But I said what I had to say: I don't think these new bonds were sold out quite perfectly.

stochastic

hero member

Activity: 532

Merit: 500

This volatility was perfect for day traders. 10 hours ago GIGAMINING increased 14.61% from its open that day.

sunnankar

legendary

Activity: 1031

Merit: 1000

Quote from: piotr_n on June 11, 2012, 12:06:07 PM

OK - thanks for explaining. I got your point.

Now, knowing that a bond issuer does not care about the secondary market price, I will be more careful when buying some other bonds.
In fact I'm not that angry - I think what I have learned here was worth the price I paid

It is funny how that works. Smart people learn from their experience and smarter people learn from other people's experience.

If you are smart enough to figure it out then you have just gotten a lesson in liquidity and bond valuation relative to discounts and premiums along with discounted future cash flows and a little bit of business cycle theory. I will reiterate a helpful source for you to start at:

Quote from: sunnankar on June 09, 2012, 09:01:29 PM

Higher quality counter-parties, like GIGAMINING or BITBOND in my opinion, should result in greater bond premiums (How To Value A Bond).

Another basic text would be Explaining Malinvestment and Overinvestment.

Quote from: piotr_n on June 11, 2012, 12:22:31 PM

You're a daytrader. Angry daytraders make me happy.

Quote

Tell me please, what was in your mind when you were selling 13k of new bonds for < 1.0 BTC, knowing that the current market price is 1.5?
I mean: you had to assume that the buyer would most likely dump them onto the market immediately, to make a quick and a risk free profit - right?

piotr_n

legendary

Activity: 2053

Merit: 1356

aka tonikt

Quote from: ?? on ??

My bonds ?
What are smoking over there ?
Can I have some ?

These are not my bonds, these are giga's.

I am just an investor like you are, except I'm not wetting my panties
every time there is a 10 cents price swing on a volume of 3 bonds.

Oh sorry - I took you for someone else.
Haven't smoked anything yet today, just drinking a second bier

I told you already: it's not a price drop that makes me upset - it's the conditions on which the new bonds were sold.
It's just not fair for the old bond holders to sell new bonds for < 1.0 and allow the buyer to immediately dump them onto the market.
But you think it's fair, don't you?

Daily Anarchist

hero member

Activity: 614

Merit: 500

Quote from: piotr_n on June 11, 2012, 12:28:23 PM

Quote from: ?? on ??

Quote from: piotr_n on June 11, 2012, 12:22:31 PM

Quote from: ?? on ??

Quote from: piotr_n on June 11, 2012, 11:53:46 AM

Quote from: Daily Anarchist on June 11, 2012, 11:46:09 AM

These aren't shares. They're bonds.

Call them whatever you like - bonds, shares or whatever coupons... They still have a market price and if you dump thousands of them onto the market for a price that is 40% lower than yesterday, it will make some people angry.
And I am fucking angry for screwing me up like this.

You're a daytrader. Angry daytraders make me happy.

Tell me please, what was in your mind when you were selling 13k of new bonds for < 1.0 BTC, knowing that the current market price is 1.5?
I mean: you had to assume that the buyer will most likely dump them onto the market immediately, to make a quick and a risk free profit, right?

I don't care about the price of the bond day to day.
I plan to hold on to them for a very long time.
All I care about is the yield.

You're upset because of the price.
That is because you're a daytrader.
And what's more, a daytrader in a market with no liquidity. LOL.
You deserve the angst.
Hopefully it'll end up teaching you the difference between investing and daytrading.

No - you are wrong.
I am not a day trader and I am not upset because of the few BTC I lost on the price difference, since I bought your bonds.

I am upset because you are arrogant and because you only care about your own interest - not about the people who helped you in the first place.

This is why I LOVE BITCOIN and AGORISM. No socialist regulations draining OUR stock market!

Topic: Gigamining / Teramining - page 114. (Read 216450 times)