Gigamining / Teramining - page 115. | Bitcointalksearch.org

redbeans2012

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Quote from: piotr_n on June 11, 2012, 12:28:23 PM

Quote from: ?? on ??

Quote from: piotr_n on June 11, 2012, 12:22:31 PM

Quote from: ?? on ??

Quote from: piotr_n on June 11, 2012, 11:53:46 AM

Quote from: Daily Anarchist on June 11, 2012, 11:46:09 AM

These aren't shares. They're bonds.

Call them whatever you like - bonds, shares or whatever coupons... They still have a market price and if you dump thousands of them onto the market for a price that is 40% lower than yesterday, it will make some people angry.
And I am fucking angry for screwing me up like this.

You're a daytrader. Angry daytraders make me happy.

Tell me please, what was in your mind when you were selling 13k of new bonds for < 1.0 BTC, knowing that the current market price is 1.5?
I mean: you had to assume that the buyer will most likely dump them onto the market immediately, to make a quick and a risk free profit, right?

I don't care about the price of the bond day to day.
I plan to hold on to them for a very long time.
All I care about is the yield.

You're upset because of the price.
That is because you're a daytrader.
And what's more, a daytrader in a market with no liquidity. LOL.
You deserve the angst.
Hopefully it'll end up teaching you the difference between investing and daytrading.

No - you are wrong.
I am not a day trader and I am not upset because of the few BTC I lost on the price difference, since I bought your bonds.

I am upset because you are arrogant and because you only care about your own interest - not about the people who helped you in the first place.

Oh he's part of gigamining, Lordy

piotr_n

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aka tonikt

Quote from: ?? on ??

Quote from: piotr_n on June 11, 2012, 12:22:31 PM

Quote from: ?? on ??

Quote from: piotr_n on June 11, 2012, 11:53:46 AM

Quote from: Daily Anarchist on June 11, 2012, 11:46:09 AM

These aren't shares. They're bonds.

Call them whatever you like - bonds, shares or whatever coupons... They still have a market price and if you dump thousands of them onto the market for a price that is 40% lower than yesterday, it will make some people angry.
And I am fucking angry for screwing me up like this.

You're a daytrader. Angry daytraders make me happy.

Tell me please, what was in your mind when you were selling 13k of new bonds for < 1.0 BTC, knowing that the current market price is 1.5?
I mean: you had to assume that the buyer will most likely dump them onto the market immediately, to make a quick and a risk free profit, right?

I don't care about the price of the bond day to day.
I plan to hold on to them for a very long time.
All I care about is the yield.

You're upset because of the price.
That is because you're a daytrader.
And what's more, a daytrader in a market with no liquidity. LOL.
You deserve the angst.
Hopefully it'll end up teaching you the difference between investing and daytrading.

No - you are wrong.
I am not a day trader and I am not upset because of the few BTC I lost on the price difference, since I bought your bonds.

I am upset because you are arrogant and because you only care about your own interest - not anymore about the people who helped you in the first place.

redbeans2012

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Activity: 887

Merit: 1000

Quote from: ?? on ??

Quote from: piotr_n on June 11, 2012, 12:22:31 PM

Quote from: ?? on ??

Quote from: piotr_n on June 11, 2012, 11:53:46 AM

Quote from: Daily Anarchist on June 11, 2012, 11:46:09 AM

These aren't shares. They're bonds.

Call them whatever you like - bonds, shares or whatever coupons... They still have a market price and if you dump thousands of them onto the market for a price that is 40% lower than yesterday, it will make some people angry.
And I am fucking angry for screwing me up like this.

You're a daytrader. Angry daytraders make me happy.

Tell me please, what was in your mind when you were selling 13k of new bonds for < 1.0 BTC, knowing that the current market price is 1.5?
I mean: you had to assume that the buyer will most likely dump them onto the market immediately, to make a quick and a risk free profit, right?

I don't care about the price of the bond day to day.
I plan to hold on to them for a very long time.
All I care about is the yield.

You're upset because of the price.
That is because you're a daytrader.
And what's more, a daytrader in a market with no liquidity. LOL.
You deserve the angst.
Hopefully it'll end up teaching you the difference between investing and daytrading.

While more of an investor than a day trader, they come in handy in adding liquidity to the market.

piotr_n

legendary

Activity: 2053

Merit: 1356

aka tonikt

Quote from: ?? on ??

Quote from: piotr_n on June 11, 2012, 11:53:46 AM

Quote from: Daily Anarchist on June 11, 2012, 11:46:09 AM

These aren't shares. They're bonds.

Call them whatever you like - bonds, shares or whatever coupons... They still have a market price and if you dump thousands of them onto the market for a price that is 40% lower than yesterday, it will make some people angry.
And I am fucking angry for screwing me up like this.

You're a daytrader. Angry daytraders make me happy.

Tell me please, what was in your mind when you were selling 13k of new bonds for < 1.0 BTC, knowing that the current market price is 1.5?
I mean: you had to assume that the buyer would most likely dump them onto the market immediately, to make a quick and a risk free profit - right?

redbeans2012

hero member

Activity: 887

Merit: 1000

Quote from: Daily Anarchist on June 11, 2012, 12:18:42 PM

Quote from: piotr_n on June 11, 2012, 12:15:50 PM

I'm just saying that if I was running this business and decided to raise some more funds by selling a thousands of new underpriced bonds under the counter, I would have made a contract with the buyer which states that he would not be allowed to dump them onto the market, just right after buying them.
And he apparently did not make such a deal - he made a deal "take this 13k bonds for 0.99 and do whatever you want with them - I don't care".

Do you have any evidence that the private bond buyer was the one who sold them? There were only about a hundred bid orders that separated 1.5 from 1.0. Any old goobstain could have sold those off for any reason.

I think you are the private investor. Tongue

Daily Anarchist

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Quote from: piotr_n on June 11, 2012, 12:15:50 PM

I'm just saying that if I was running this business and decided to raise some more funds by selling a thousands of new underpriced bonds under the counter, I would have made a contract with the buyer which states that he would not be allowed to dump them onto the market, just right after buying them.
And he apparently did not make such a deal - he made a deal "take this 13k bonds for 0.99 and do whatever you want with them - I don't care".

Do you have any evidence that the private bond buyer was the one who sold them? There were only about a hundred bid orders that separated 1.5 from 1.0. Any old goobstain could have sold those off for any reason.

piotr_n

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aka tonikt

I'm just saying that if I was running a business and decided to raise more funds by selling thousands of new cheap bonds under the counter, I would have made a contract with the buyer which states that he would not be allowed to dump them onto the market, just right after buying them.

And Gigamining apparently did not make such a deal - he made more of a deal like "take this 13k bonds for 0.99 and do whatever you want with them - I don't care".

Daily Anarchist

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Activity: 614

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Quote from: piotr_n on June 11, 2012, 12:06:07 PM

Quote from: stochastic on June 11, 2012, 11:59:39 AM

Quote from: piotr_n on June 11, 2012, 11:53:46 AM

Quote from: Daily Anarchist on June 11, 2012, 11:46:09 AM

These aren't shares. They're bonds.

Call them whatever you like - bonds, shares or whatever coupons... They still have a market price and if you dump thousands of them onto the market for a price that is 40% lower than yesterday, it will make some people angry.
And I am fucking angry for screwing me up like this.

This is what they are trying to say. A bond issuer does not need to care if the bond on the secondary market drops or rises. A bond issuer does not have to answer to the bondholders unless there is a forced buyback clause that the bondholders can institute. If this was a share, then the CEO would care about the drop in price as he or she does have to answer to the shareholders.

Didn't you think there would be a risk of decline in a market like GLBSE when it was selling for 1.5 BTC each?

OK - thanks for explaining. I got your point.

Now, knowing that a bond issuer does not care about the secondary market price, I will be more careful when buying some other bonds.
In fact I'm not that angry - I think what I have learned here was worth the price I paid

Well, he does sort of care. When he wants to raise more money the higher the Price to Earnings ratio is, the better for him. Imagine if there was so much demand in the secondary market where each bond was fetching 10 BTC while still paying out 0.023 BTC weekly. Then he'd be able to sell bonds for a lot more and pay out a lot less. Conversely, if each bond is only fetching 0.5 BTC while paying out 0.023 BTC weekly, he's got to sell a lot more bonds.

There is definitely an incentive for the issuer to care about the price per bond. The higher the better. Generally, the better credit rating of bond issuers the higher the price. The Bitcoin community doesn't yet have credit rating agencies. But eventually, they will. Gigamining would likely earn a AA rating, whereas some of the upstarts who have no reputation might only have a C rating.

piotr_n

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aka tonikt

Quote from: stochastic on June 11, 2012, 11:59:39 AM

Quote from: piotr_n on June 11, 2012, 11:53:46 AM

Quote from: Daily Anarchist on June 11, 2012, 11:46:09 AM

These aren't shares. They're bonds.

Call them whatever you like - bonds, shares or whatever coupons... They still have a market price and if you dump thousands of them onto the market for a price that is 40% lower than yesterday, it will make some people angry.
And I am fucking angry for screwing me up like this.

This is what they are trying to say. A bond issuer does not need to care if the bond on the secondary market drops or rises. A bond issuer does not have to answer to the bondholders unless there is a forced buyback clause that the bondholders can institute. If this was a share, then the CEO would care about the drop in price as he or she does have to answer to the shareholders.

Didn't you think there would be a risk of decline in a market like GLBSE when it was selling for 1.5 BTC each?

OK - thanks for explaining. I got your point.

Now, knowing that a bond issuer does not care about the secondary market price, I will be more careful when buying some other bonds.
In fact I'm not that angry - I think what I have learned here was worth the price I paid

stochastic

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Quote from: piotr_n on June 11, 2012, 11:53:46 AM

Quote from: Daily Anarchist on June 11, 2012, 11:46:09 AM

These aren't shares. They're bonds.

Call them whatever you like - bonds, shares or whatever coupons... They still have a market price and if you dump thousands of them onto the market for a price that is 40% lower than yesterday, it will make some people angry.
And I am fucking angry for screwing me up like this.

This is what they are trying to say. A bond issuer does not need to care if the bond on the secondary market drops or rises. A bond issuer does not have to answer to the bondholders unless there is a forced buyback clause that the bondholders can institute. If this was a share, then the CEO would care about the drop in price as he or she does have to answer to the shareholders.

Didn't you think there would be a risk of decline in a market like GLBSE when it was selling for 1.5 BTC each?

Daily Anarchist

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Activity: 614

Merit: 500

Quote from: piotr_n on June 11, 2012, 11:53:46 AM

Quote from: Daily Anarchist on June 11, 2012, 11:46:09 AM

These aren't shares. They're bonds.

Call them whatever you like - bonds, shares or whatever coupons... They still have a market price and if you dump thousands of them onto the market for a price that is 40% lower than yesterday, it will make some people angry.
And I am fucking angry for screwing me up like this.

There's a huge difference between bonds and shares. If you own X amount of shares then it is essentially Y amount of ownership of a company. If a bunch of new shares get created and the percentage of your ownership of the company drops, then you would definitely be angry. But bonds don't affect your dividends whatsoever. If you paid 1.5 BTC and a week later the price drops to 1 BTC, then you made a bad choice when to buy. But the price could have dropped to 1 BTC because some other owner of bonds, not necessarily the issuer, sold off a bunch of shares. Actually, I think you'll find that the price per bond becomes more stable with more bonds out there.

piotr_n

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Quote from: Daily Anarchist on June 11, 2012, 11:46:09 AM

These aren't shares. They're bonds.

Call them whatever you like - bonds, shares or whatever coupons... They still have a market price and if you dump thousands of them onto the market for a price that is 40% lower than yesterday, it will make some people angry.
And I am fucking angry for screwing me up like this.

ciuciu

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In other words, he can sell you this week 10000 bonds at 1.5. Next week he sells 10000 at 1. The market reacts and the value goes to 1. He buys back your bonds at 1.05 and you are out of .45.
This means that the first investors are screwed. And you are OK with it and with him maximizing profits.

Quote from: redbeans2012 on June 11, 2012, 11:49:16 AM

Quote from: Daily Anarchist on June 11, 2012, 11:46:09 AM

These aren't shares. They're bonds. As far as I'm concerned the price per bond can drop to 0.01 BTC. Then I'd be able to buy a ton of them for super cheap and get fat payments every week. The only thing that concerns me about these bonds is whether or not my weekly dividends will drop due to increased difficulty.

The goal of the issuer of the bonds is to sell them for as much as he possibly can. If he sells them for less than he can get on the open market he's leaving money on the table. Sure, he could offer 20,000 new bonds at 1.5 BTC, but who will buy them? Not very many, and he would probably rather sell 20,000 new bonds at 1 BTC than 1,000 new bonds at 1.5.

Interesting point

redbeans2012

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Quote from: Daily Anarchist on June 11, 2012, 11:46:09 AM

These aren't shares. They're bonds. As far as I'm concerned the price per bond can drop to 0.01 BTC. Then I'd be able to buy a ton of them for super cheap and get fat payments every week. The only thing that concerns me about these bonds is whether or not my weekly dividends will drop due to increased difficulty.

The goal of the issuer of the bonds is to sell them for as much as he possibly can. If he sells them for less than he can get on the open market he's leaving money on the table. Sure, he could offer 20,000 new bonds at 1.5 BTC, but who will buy them? Not very many, and he would probably rather sell 20,000 new bonds at 1 BTC than 1,000 new bonds at 1.5.

Interesting point

Daily Anarchist

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Activity: 614

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These aren't shares. They're bonds. As far as I'm concerned the price per bond can drop to 0.01 BTC. Then I'd be able to buy a ton of them for super cheap and get fat payments every week. The only thing that concerns me about these bonds is whether or not my weekly dividends will drop due to increased difficulty.

The goal of the issuer of the bonds is to sell them for as much as he possibly can. If he sells them for less than he can get on the open market he's leaving money on the table. Sure, he could offer 20,000 new bonds at 1.5 BTC, but who will buy them? Not very many, and he would probably rather sell 20,000 new bonds at 1 BTC than 1,000 new bonds at 1.5.

piotr_n

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Quote from: pieppiep on June 11, 2012, 11:33:43 AM

Again, why?
The bonds I have are still 5 Mhash/s.
To me it actually gives more confidence because it makes him a bigger player so he can do certain things more efficient than smaller players.

If you are going to be holding them forever - then it indeed doesn't matter.
But some people buy the bonds, hold them for awhile, and then sell back - hopefully for at least a similar price as they paid.

So yes: he is a bigger player now.
But he became bigger by screwing up tens of small players from his own team.
And that is not nice - is it?

I understand that he wanted to grow, but he could have at least found an investor who would not be willing to profit from screwing the previous investors up.

ciuciu

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People do not buy only for the 5Mhash/s.
If it was like this, why the private investor wanted bonds? He could have paid Giga to mine for him and get the dividents without going the bonds route.

Quote from: pieppiep on June 11, 2012, 11:33:43 AM

Again, why?
The bonds I have are still 5 Mhash/s.
To me it actually gives more confidence because it makes him a bigger player so he can do certain things more efficient than smaller players.

Sukrim

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I got my shares at something close to 1.50 and that was a good price. I don't want to earn a lot by daytrading anyways, as long as difficulty stays that low and gigavps is paying on time and the correct amounts, I see no reason to sell or panic currently.

pieppiep

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Again, why?
The bonds I have are still 5 Mhash/s.
To me it actually gives more confidence because it makes him a bigger player so he can do certain things more efficient than smaller players.

ciuciu

donator

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Merit: 500

This is true. But it will kill the confidence in all mining bonds.
Let's see how the market will react.

Quote from: pieppiep on June 11, 2012, 10:51:26 AM

Quote from: ciuciu on June 11, 2012, 09:59:54 AM

You have to disclose this information. Or to keep the matters separately.

Quote from: jamesg on June 11, 2012, 09:52:19 AM

Quote from: redbeans2012 on June 11, 2012, 09:43:27 AM

Didn't you issue the next round of bonds for 1.50 though?

Did you sell this last round to private investors for 1 btc? Doesn't seem too cool to do that but whatever I sold right before the price went down

The last round was sold to private investors. Usually when their are bulk purchases (greater than 1k bonds) buyers usually insist on slight discounts to the current price.

Why? There is nothing about that in the contract.

Topic: Gigamining / Teramining - page 115. (Read 216459 times)