Topic: Gigamining / Teramining - page 87. (Read 216459 times)

OPEX isn't that much, especially when you consider 90% PPS. It's obviously impossible to determine difficulty when ASICs hit the public, but lets assume giga were getting 10% of current mining. 200ghash means he gets 20ghash. My estimates put him at 20-25kw at the moment. I'll round it up to 30kw at $0.05/kwh (of course, this is all pure speculation, it could be higher). That's about $1k per month in electricity, netting him a cool $1.5k per month to cover other OPEX. When you then consider that TERA's CAPEX cost for investors is 50% higher than what bonds are currently going for (compared to BFL prices), it just seems iffy. Of course, electricity/storage/air condition costs all go down with ASICs, which means OPEX will be significantly lower than what I have listed here. It just seems that giga would make a considerable amount from the initial upgrade fees, and have the 10% to cover all of his expenses (while probably pocketing a decent amount)

Also, I did my original estimates based on the 0.40 BTC upgrade price. 0.29 BTC should be a bit better. I'm still not sure if it is worth it with the 90% PPS.

Hello giga,

Can you try to justify the increased upgrade price to us? As it stands, a BFL Single gives $0.75 per mhash, a gigamining bond gives $1.44 per mhash. That's effectively 100% markup over the very base model (which offers lower $/mhash than the rigs you use). With the coming of ASICs, an upgraded TERAMINING bond will be $0.13/mhash (giga market price price + upgrade), while a BFL Jalapeño is $0.04/mhash. As you can no doubt see, it has moved from under 100% markup to over 200% markup. That's quite a difference in value.

With the BFL Jalapeño being significantly cheaper and more powerful than the BFL Single, the investment (as well as risk) is lower, which makes buying your own ASICs a much more attractive option compared to TERAMINING. It's certainly much more attractive than a BFL Single was to GIGAMINING.

Just tossing my 2 bits in -- I'm still unsure of what I am going to do with my own bonds.

Thanks,
Gary13579

To all Gigaminers:

Below is the Teramining contract. Please have a once over and leave any constructive comments in the thread.

Best,
gigavps

Some have asked in this thread that I change Teramining from a mining bond to a "company" that you own a share of. This would mean that I decide the reinvestment strategy and ultimately less bitcoins would flow back to share holders as there would be perceived value in the "company".

I am keeping the mining bond paradigm because it's up to each individual to decide their investment or reinvestment strategy they want to pursue.

Essentially that. When you buy fixed mhash/s bonds, just as with mining yourself, you have to reinvest. Not necessarily in the same bond, you could even buy your own hardware with dividends.

- It's to be expected
- Re-investing is essential with bitcoin mining
- https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.1199068

Any comment on the general downward trend?

To all Gigaminers:

Coupon payments for the week have been paid.

Enjoy,
gigavps

If the direction were to head to non-fixed, I want to own more than just the hashes. While it would be great to have a share that represents a growing number of mhash/s, I'd much rather have a stake in the hardware.

Hi Namworld,

I have stated above that the fee will be .29 BTC per bond and that each Teramining bond will be fixed at 22.5Mh/s. I am also going to guarantee a minimum buy back amount per bond.

If you would like to create a competing offering and think you can do better, by all means please do.

Best,
gigavps

Because while the upgrade is not THAT BAD, gigavps goes around making false statements embellishing the price upgrade and what he gives.


Because it's an upgrade on the old equipment investors purchased (FPGA rigs) being traded in. We should pay the difference to upgrade them to ASIC rigs (+ cut for gigavps), not pay the full ASICs + a cut. It may look like it's a lot offered and it may look like the free upgrade option costs gigavps more but actually the free upgrade path is strongly in favor of gigavps

You look at my previous numbers published and tell me they're off.

The FPGA to ASIC trade in offers 20x the hashing free on the free half of the ASIC rig it pays and gigavps offers 5x the hashing on the free upgrade. Costs him less to do the free upgrade path. Also the cut he takes is around 60% - 70% in most scenarios. It's by far one of the largest cut taken by an operator.


It's statements like this which makes me say to gigavps: Take a fixed profit cuts, deduct the expenses and distribute the rest. Let the investors get as much as possible and stop worrying risks with your guaranteed management fee.

Because he says 50% will barely go through (if it does) the next 4 years (we could expect decreasing revenue over time). And he wants a profit. But does planning the risks justifies the 60%-70% cut, just in case? It MIGHT eventually be needed, but in the beginning and foreseeable future, he will not need such a large cut. It's excessive. It would be better to reduce payment rates when required, not take today the cut that will be needed 2 years downward or whenever it happens.

And yes while Smoothie and Eskimobob are not false, they're not entirely true. The large cut gigavps wants to take will certainly become justified later on as mining value decreases. It just doesn't fit now. To be sure to be able to honor the fixed rate years downward, he'll take a massive profit cut in the beginning with a cut tailored for a hypothetical future scenario?

Dropping the fixed mhash would be the way to go in my opinion.

Just for the defense of those two.

Correct me if I don’t remember well, but not Smoothie was the one who kept screaming pirate is a scammer and it turned out to be true, or not Eskimobob who keeps saying perpetual mining bonds will loose more in value then the dividends they pay out which also seems very true to me.

I did not look it up so my memory could cheat me.

I don't know why smoothie and eskimobob seem so angry all the time. Maybe if they would calm down they would realize that the price for the gigamining upgrade is lower than other bonds, such as bitbond.

Why aren't they ranting and raving in the bitbond thread? I think this is personal. They must have some sort of grudge against gigavps, or maybe they are just nuts. I hope they don't own any guns.

I'm trying to figure that out as well - no specifics were made in your original post, and I didn't see any added in your recent updates.

Hi,

So gigavps, are those the final terms or do you think they are the final terms of the upgrade? It would be nice to get something solid.

I have to say these announcements and changes could have been handled a lot better. Yes, I realize you are actually going beyond what is required from you, as per the contract, but wouldn't it have been a wiser move to just keep quiet about the ASIC upgrade until you had the terms finalized?

I'm sorry to say this but right now it just feels like you are trying to find the sweet spot between your own maximum profits and what the community/bondholders will find acceptable after investing based on your first announcement. I honestly think you should stick with the terms in your initial announcement, since a lot of people have invested with those numbers in mind, and you keep reiterating how you only want the best for your investors.

Basically, I feel a bit deceived at this point, and if I feel that way, chances are others will feel that way too.

At this point, I will still hold on to my investment in Gigamining though, and most likely upgrade too, but I just wanted to let you know how I felt about it. Good luck with the ASIC shipments btw, lets hope you get yours up and mining as soon as possible. Maybe there is still a chance this won't end up as a failed investment for me and many others.

-Holo

You are correct. I will remove it.

EDIT:

To be clear, I was not thinking properly this morning when I wrote that. It is my fault, and I have retracted it. Sorry for the confusion.

This inclusion stood out to me, as I am sure it does to many others. I do not see this as a justified inclusion and I think the issue would be much more better suited without it.

What is the trigger for the timing of the bond exchange?

He probably has a "all business, no drama" rating because he doesn't do shit like this.


That doesn't sound perpetual.

To all Gigaminers:

I think the final terms will be:

• 22.5% Mh/s per bond (this is 90% of 25Mh/s)
• The cost per bond upgrade will be set at .29 BTC per Gigamining bond

If anyone does not like this deal, you can always take the free upgrade and go buy your own BFL equipment.

The new contract for Teramining is going to be a bit more robust than the current Gigamining contract and will also include:

• A minimum buy back amount. The contract will set a minimum that I can buy back the Teramining bonds for in BTC. I have yet to figure out what this amount should be but with 160k bonds issued, it will be low.

If you have any feedback on these, please post your comments.

Best,
gigavps

EDIT: Removed another stipulation quoted below because it doesn't jive with the perpetual nature of the bond.