Anyway, if there are open source coordinators with zero fees users would have to find something exceptional in Ginger Wallet for them to pay for coinjoins.
It's not exactly and 100% free. Kruw explained in the Bitcoin Takeover podcast that aired a few days ago that he takes a few sats here and there. Since his coordinator has a lot of traffic, this isn't that small of a number. He can comment on that himself if he wants to, although this isn't the best place to do it. 
Topic: 🔥 GingerWallet.io - Desktop, Non-custodial, Open source | #CoinJoin - page 7. (Read 3937 times)
September 22, 2024, 02:28:58 AM
September 21, 2024, 02:34:54 PM
It is true, however, that if a coordinator has more liquidity than Ginger, and is completely free, then I don't see how Ginger competes.
There are several ways Ginger Wallet cannot compete with some coordinators but considering Ginger Wallet is effectively a business and they make their income from selling coinjoin services, it stands to reason they would want to stop/block people from using their star product with third party coordinators (and in the process effectively cutting them out of their 0.3% fee).If there are some exceptional technical advances in their next release, it might appease some of the negative sentiments surrounding their wallet.
It seems that it was a mistake on our side and previously only the backend was fixed to our servers. We never intended to allow other coordinators than the Ginger one from the beginning. Apologies for the misunderstanding.
That is interesting to read, thank you for clarifying. You do realise you would like Wasabi Wallet users to change their coordinator to Ginger Wallet therefore why do you not want to reciprocate the same for Ginger Wallet users? 
September 21, 2024, 02:10:03 PM
Besides the 0.3% fee and the limitation on which coordinator to use, I would argue that using Ginger might be less trustless. In a recent blog post of Wasabi, their latest release removes coordinator fee. I would strongly recommend you to go and read it. It appears the case that using a non-free coordinator introduces a certain degree of trust, as if the coordinator is malicious, they can drain the user's funds.
However, the technical details in the client software are far beyond my knowledge, so please correct me, GingerWallet, if I'm mistaken.
However, the technical details in the client software are far beyond my knowledge, so please correct me, GingerWallet, if I'm mistaken.
Wasabi was originally advertised as trustless, but it weren't really tested before as there was only one server (the backend and the coordinator weren't separated at that time) and that got the trust from the users.
After the removing of the original coordinator and making an easy way to create new ones, it revealed that this is not the case (in the past lots of the development went to defend the coordinator and not to the client for obvious reasons).
One of the mentioned issue is the free remix. The server sends whether a coin has exemption from fee, but the client does not check it. To be fair the protocol doesn't even provide a way to tell/advertise that there is a fee, but the remix is free, the server simply works that way by default.
To increase the trust, Ginger Wallet will check the remix in the upcoming release (in 1-2 weeks) and leave the coinjoin if it doesn't get it.
The 1-hop still won't be checked as that will need more development (still, the remix covers 99% of the case).
September 21, 2024, 02:08:07 PM
I agree with you that this change GingerWallet made can negatively impact the interest for their software. Kruw's coordinator has the biggest share of the traffic already.
Ginger Wallet comes as a package, it's really up to you whether you use it or the Wasabi Wallet.
- The coinjoin uses AML, it's the user's preference whether they consider this as an advantage or disadvantage there is no point arguing about it here. To be honest the average user won't see any difference.
- 2FA protocol, the wallet can be stored encrypted so even if your computer and/or wallet data will be stolen and had a keylogger, your money is still most likely safe.
Of course, we plan to add more features over time.
September 21, 2024, 02:06:39 PM
Hello,
I would like to clarify that we do not intend to assume responsibility for coordinators that we are unfamiliar with. Regarding the change you mentioned, please note that it is purely cosmetic. It simply made it more apparent that the client has always been connecting to the Ginger server, which was the case even before the mentioned update.
But if I wanted to use the GingerWallet with a different coordinator than the default one (your own), can I do that? If I can, then how? According to JollyGood, users have to restart their wallet after changing coordinator. When the wallet reloads, it goes back to the default coordinator.I would like to clarify that we do not intend to assume responsibility for coordinators that we are unfamiliar with. Regarding the change you mentioned, please note that it is purely cosmetic. It simply made it more apparent that the client has always been connecting to the Ginger server, which was the case even before the mentioned update.
Hello,
I would like to clarify that we do not intend to assume responsibility for coordinators that we are unfamiliar with. Regarding the change you mentioned, please note that it is purely cosmetic. It simply made it more apparent that the client has always been connecting to the Ginger server, which was the case even before the mentioned update.
Theoretically we should still be able to switch the coordinator when we open Ginger Wallet since it is based off of Wasabi code and Wasabi already has this functionality.I would like to clarify that we do not intend to assume responsibility for coordinators that we are unfamiliar with. Regarding the change you mentioned, please note that it is purely cosmetic. It simply made it more apparent that the client has always been connecting to the Ginger server, which was the case even before the mentioned update.
Exactly. You can use Ginger Wallet only with the Ginger coordinator.
And that will probably be the biggest problem you will face when trying to people to download the wallet.It seems that it was a mistake on our side and previously only the backend was fixed to our servers. We never intended to allow other coordinators than the Ginger one from the beginning. Apologies for the misunderstanding.
September 21, 2024, 01:39:06 PM
Anyway, if there are open source coordinators...
The Wasabi coordinator is an open-source software, but you can't verify what's running in somebody else's computer. This is why the client needs to be configured to background check a host variety of things. This is where "trustless" originates. It is true, however, that if a coordinator has more liquidity than Ginger, and is completely free, then I don't see how Ginger competes.
September 21, 2024, 12:37:31 PM
Whichever way you look this, it is true and cannot be denied. The fact of the matter is that the moment any coordinator has access to the funds (either directly or indirectly) the element of misuse of funds and/or misappropriation is a possibility if a malicious actor decides to use a coordinator for nefarious purposes. Whether anything related to theft will happen or not is different to whether it is a possibility.
Anyway, if there are open source coordinators with zero fees users would have to find something exceptional in Ginger Wallet for them to pay for coinjoins.
Anyway, if there are open source coordinators with zero fees users would have to find something exceptional in Ginger Wallet for them to pay for coinjoins.
Besides the 0.3% fee and the limitation on which coordinator to use, I would argue that using Ginger might be less trustless. In a recent blog post of Wasabi, their latest release removes coordinator fee. I would strongly recommend you to go and read it. It appears the case that using a non-free coordinator introduces a certain degree of trust, as if the coordinator is malicious, they can drain the user's funds.
However, the technical details in the client software are far beyond my knowledge, so please correct me, GingerWallet, if I'm mistaken.
However, the technical details in the client software are far beyond my knowledge, so please correct me, GingerWallet, if I'm mistaken.
September 21, 2024, 11:24:50 AM
Quote me where I said that making the service free makes it trusted.
Sorry, I misread that.
September 21, 2024, 10:23:15 AM
You are mistaken, making a service free does not make it trusted, I don't know how you could possibly reach that conclusion.
He didn't say that making a service free makes it trusted. The idea is that if a coordinator charges a fee, you have to trust it to not be malicious, be fair, and not drain your wallet. We have already had some incidents with coordinators acting malicious in the past. I don't remember which service, though. And don't use your old "everything is open-source, there is no need to trust anyone" argument as you have done hundreds of times already. You have already stated that you have no coding skills yourselves and neither do the majority of people. Therefore, trust is part of the game to a certain degree. September 21, 2024, 10:11:38 AM
Quote me where I said that making the service free makes it trusted.
September 21, 2024, 09:07:19 AM
It appears the case that using a non-free coordinator introduces a certain degree of trust, as if the coordinator is malicious, they can drain the user's funds.
However, the technical details in the client software are far beyond my knowledge, so please correct me, GingerWallet, if I'm mistaken.
However, the technical details in the client software are far beyond my knowledge, so please correct me, GingerWallet, if I'm mistaken.
You are mistaken, making a service free does not make it trusted, I don't know how you could possibly reach that conclusion.
September 21, 2024, 08:26:52 AM
Besides the 0.3% fee and the limitation on which coordinator to use, I would argue that using Ginger might be less trustless. In a recent blog post of Wasabi, their latest release removes coordinator fee. I would strongly recommend you to go and read it. It appears the case that using a non-free coordinator introduces a certain degree of trust, as if the coordinator is malicious, they can drain the user's funds.
However, the technical details in the client software are far beyond my knowledge, so please correct me, GingerWallet, if I'm mistaken.
However, the technical details in the client software are far beyond my knowledge, so please correct me, GingerWallet, if I'm mistaken.
September 21, 2024, 06:29:01 AM
If we leave the coordinator issue aside for now, what would be the advantage of using the GingerWallet compared to using Wasabi Wallet if someone wants to do coinjoins? It's a rebranded Wasabi product with certain tweaks and changes. If it doesn't offer anything revolutionary different and also forces you to stick with the default coordinator, I would see no reason to use it. Again, this is only if I was interested in touching anything related to Wasabi.
I agree with you that this change GingerWallet made can negatively impact the interest for their software. Kruw's coordinator has the biggest share of the traffic already.
It seems their breaking down of 4-5 smaller parts in the first round is probably the new function that should be appealing to those wanting to coinjoin. It was mentioned in their post below but other than that it seems there is no real benefit in using Ginger Wallet over Wasabi Wallet (especially if you factor in the key issue not being able to select your preferred coordinator).I agree with you that this change GingerWallet made can negatively impact the interest for their software. Kruw's coordinator has the biggest share of the traffic already.
Using Wasabi Wallet means you can select any coordinator you would like including without paying fees but using Ginger Wallet means you have to use their default coordinator and pay 0.3% fees. Given those options, the choice is clear for potential users.
If Open Coordinator continue with their zero fees policy for several months more, they might close the gap on Kruw significantly.
Solo with large coins?
The Ginger Wallet client provides more efficient management for users with larger coins. Instead of creating a large change output that requires multiple rounds to break down, Ginger splits the coin into 4-5 smaller parts in the first round.
These smaller parts align better with the denomination levels, resulting in a more efficient coinjoin process.
If you plan to use the Ginger coordinator, we recommend using our client to avoid these unnecessary decompositions.
Ginger can be installed independently without interfering with other clients or coordinators.
The Ginger Wallet client provides more efficient management for users with larger coins. Instead of creating a large change output that requires multiple rounds to break down, Ginger splits the coin into 4-5 smaller parts in the first round.
These smaller parts align better with the denomination levels, resulting in a more efficient coinjoin process.
If you plan to use the Ginger coordinator, we recommend using our client to avoid these unnecessary decompositions.
Ginger can be installed independently without interfering with other clients or coordinators.
September 21, 2024, 05:59:40 AM
I agree with you that this change GingerWallet made can negatively impact the interest for their software. Kruw's coordinator has the biggest share of the traffic already.
September 21, 2024, 03:28:45 AM
Hello,
I would like to clarify that we do not intend to assume responsibility for coordinators that we are unfamiliar with. Regarding the change you mentioned, please note that it is purely cosmetic. It simply made it more apparent that the client has always been connecting to the Ginger server, which was the case even before the mentioned update.
But if I wanted to use the GingerWallet with a different coordinator than the default one (your own), can I do that? If I can, then how? According to JollyGood, users have to restart their wallet after changing coordinator. When the wallet reloads, it goes back to the default coordinator.I would like to clarify that we do not intend to assume responsibility for coordinators that we are unfamiliar with. Regarding the change you mentioned, please note that it is purely cosmetic. It simply made it more apparent that the client has always been connecting to the Ginger server, which was the case even before the mentioned update.
Hello,
I would like to clarify that we do not intend to assume responsibility for coordinators that we are unfamiliar with. Regarding the change you mentioned, please note that it is purely cosmetic. It simply made it more apparent that the client has always been connecting to the Ginger server, which was the case even before the mentioned update.
Theoretically we should still be able to switch the coordinator when we open Ginger Wallet since it is based off of Wasabi code and Wasabi already has this functionality.I would like to clarify that we do not intend to assume responsibility for coordinators that we are unfamiliar with. Regarding the change you mentioned, please note that it is purely cosmetic. It simply made it more apparent that the client has always been connecting to the Ginger server, which was the case even before the mentioned update.
Exactly. You can use Ginger Wallet only with the Ginger coordinator.
And that will probably be the biggest problem you will face when trying to people to download the wallet. September 20, 2024, 06:59:41 AM
Exciting news! 🎉 Ginger Coordinator hit over 10 BTC in daily traffic yesterday! 🚀 Remember, CoinJoin is free for transactions under 0.01 BTC (around $635), plus free remixes, and friends don't pay! 🙌
Come hang out with us on Telegram: https://t.me/GingerWallet
Or check us out at gingerwallet.io! 🌐
Come hang out with us on Telegram: https://t.me/GingerWallet
Or check us out at gingerwallet.io! 🌐
September 20, 2024, 05:44:45 AM
Theoretically we should still be able to switch the coordinator when we open Ginger Wallet since it is based off of Wasabi code and Wasabi already has this functionality.
If everything with GingerWallet is open-source, then those who know how to code could code out the function that the wallet resets itself back to the default Ginger coordinator after a restart or just stick with Wasabi if they don't want to be forced to use the GingerWallet coordinator. Not that I am recommending one over the other.Certainly possible, but keep in mind that the two wallets begin to move to different directions regarding coinjoins. If you misunderstood something in your change or the protocol begins to differ and your client signs the transaction without all the outputs, even the free coordinator will gladly take your money.
September 20, 2024, 03:50:08 AM
Theoretically we should still be able to switch the coordinator when we open Ginger Wallet since it is based off of Wasabi code and Wasabi already has this functionality.
If everything with GingerWallet is open-source, then those who know how to code could code out the function that the wallet resets itself back to the default Ginger coordinator after a restart or just stick with Wasabi if they don't want to be forced to use the GingerWallet coordinator. Not that I am recommending one over the other. September 19, 2024, 11:30:38 AM
Over the past two months, Ginger has focused on optimizing smaller coinjoins for greater effectiveness, resulting in higher anonscores per round. Please note that these improvements are only available when using the Ginger client.
Additionally, the latest Wasabi release no longer supports the free remix and friends don't pay features. This means that if you're using the latest Wasabi client, you’ll incur fees in situations where they shouldn’t apply, leading to higher costs. Therefore, Ginger strongly recommends using the Ginger client when participating with the Ginger Coordinator.
Both Wasabi and Ginger clients function independently and can be installed on the same system, allowing you to switch between them as needed.
If you have any questions, feel free to join our Telegram channel: https://t.me/GingerWallet
Happy Coinjoining!
Additionally, the latest Wasabi release no longer supports the free remix and friends don't pay features. This means that if you're using the latest Wasabi client, you’ll incur fees in situations where they shouldn’t apply, leading to higher costs. Therefore, Ginger strongly recommends using the Ginger client when participating with the Ginger Coordinator.
Both Wasabi and Ginger clients function independently and can be installed on the same system, allowing you to switch between them as needed.
If you have any questions, feel free to join our Telegram channel: https://t.me/GingerWallet
Happy Coinjoining!
September 19, 2024, 11:26:43 AM
Hello,
I would like to clarify that we do not intend to assume responsibility for coordinators that we are unfamiliar with. Regarding the change you mentioned, please note that it is purely cosmetic. It simply made it more apparent that the client has always been connecting to the Ginger server, which was the case even before the mentioned update.
But if I wanted to use the GingerWallet with a different coordinator than the default one (your own), can I do that? If I can, then how? According to JollyGood, users have to restart their wallet after changing coordinator. When the wallet reloads, it goes back to the default coordinator. I would like to clarify that we do not intend to assume responsibility for coordinators that we are unfamiliar with. Regarding the change you mentioned, please note that it is purely cosmetic. It simply made it more apparent that the client has always been connecting to the Ginger server, which was the case even before the mentioned update.
Exactly. You can use Ginger Wallet only with the Ginger coordinator.
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