Topic: 🔥 GingerWallet.io - Desktop, Non-custodial, Open source | #CoinJoin - page 7. (Read 2383 times)

I thought they did have the blacklisting in the coordinator. Or was is just there and checking but not doing anything?

Either way as for your meme I don't think that blocking is fine. And I don't think a lot of people here think blocking is fine.

But, what seems to be happening is more people throwing their hands up and saying fine, you don't care, they don't care, I do care but I am not going to fight over it. You do you and I'll do me and if you want to use those services fine. Could be we are all getting old and grumpy or just burnt from fighting the battles that a lot of people don't care about and don't want to win.

BTC / crypto in general:

As a BTC user who has to at times use regulated exchanges I have never had an issue with any coins I have sent to them. Could be luck, or it could be just using my head about who I accept money from. IRL I don't deal with or take cash from people who I see as sketchy. I also don't deal with them online. Yes it's subjective and I am probably frequently wrong, but it's worked for me so far. If / when it stops working for me doing things then it will be time to figure something else out.

-Dave

About that, their blog state they block U.S. resident and citizen from download and access any of their service[1]. Although 5 days later, they also write blog which state they discontinue their CoinJoin coordinator service[2].


Although it's worth to note some exchange/service simply decide not to accept any kind of mixed/coinjoined coins.

[1] https://blog.wasabiwallet.io/zksnacks-now-blocking-u-s-residents-and-citizens/
[2] https://blog.wasabiwallet.io/

Wasabi was not blocking US downloads until the FBI announcement. For the last two years it was only talk about a blacklisting mechanism getting implemented into the default coordinator (which ultimately never happened) until they took down their coordinator under external pressure.

Anyhow, this meme I generated 5 minutes ago gives people a good look at the state of this place nowadays:

This is a plus point for those that were using WasabiWallet but stopped because their default co-ordinator was removed. They could use GingerWallet and retain previous WasabiWallet folders or keep using WasabiWallet but modify the GingerWallet api link. Either way there is a benefit for those that want to keep using these wallets.

I cannot recall if WasabiWallet was restricting downloads to a specific country (USA) or whether their previous versions that did allow a default co-ordinator could even be modified to use n alternative one therefore cannot compare the two points you raised about GingerWallet. What I will say is that when a company claims they are privacy focused but people can see many issues with those claims, it becomes harder for the company to win back confidence.

If GingerWallet decided for example to go on a promotion or advertising spree to market their service, it could work out for them but not if they have question marks over their privacy structure and people are discussing the flaws in forums. If they want to avoid going down the WasabiWallet route with regards to reputational damage, they will need to ensure they never have any links with anybody that has the mindset of Kruw (and to immediately distance themselves if any claim of collaboration is made with someone like that) and they have to engage with customer/clients on some platforms. Even then, it might be difficult for them to succeed when people question how much privacy is actually afforded to people using their service.

There are two levels of privacy, network level privacy and blockchain level:

- If we take the network level, to avoid malicious spies and ISP spying, Ginger communications must be encrypted and broadcast using Tor^[1], which is something that contradicts restricting wallet downloads to a specific country.
- As for the blockchain level, making the Default coordinator set to Ginger coordinator (cannot be changed) while placing restrictions on some transactions on the Ginger coordinator (blacklists) means that it is difficult to achieve privacy at this level.

Claiming to be a privacy-focused wallet means promoting them on these two levels and not the other way around.

The only positive thing is that this wallet may be an option for those who are afraid of associating coinjoin with money laundering, although there are no guarantees from that coinjoin-ed coins will have a good AML record^{(I do not agree with this principle)}.

[1] https://nopara73.medium.com/bitcoin-core-vs-wasabi-wallet-network-level-privacy-bdca1d501387

Previously, I tried the Ginger wallet, and it turns out that some wallets that I had created in the Wasabi wallet were automatically detected in the Ginger wallet.
It is understandable because the Ginger wallet is a fork of Wasabi. So, the hierarchy of folders and wallets can be used with each other.

Indeed they have done it from the beginning and they have also kept that information limited to their terms and conditions without it becoming a major discussion point until now. As far as a PR exercise is concerned would it help their cause? What I am thinking about is what the opinion of potential customer/clients and most neutral onlookers would be and would it work to their advantage for starting out that way and receive credit for it rather than implement it half way through?

As we have seen from many posts in the WasabiWallet thread, companies that use blockchain analysis are not popular and members are usually advised to avoid them therefore GingerWallet will have to contend with that negativity if they plan on being successful.

But i think it's important to note that GingerWallet did that from beginning, while zkSNACKs did that halfway where people have high expectation from zkSNACKs.


I agree. They probably do that with expectation they would face less pressure from governments.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VPN_service

They clearly took time and effort to build their product and will not probably try to build a brand too and I wish them success. Having said that, it does seem strange they would fork WasabiWallet yet would retain blockchain analysis when they must have noticed what happened to reputation of their owner zkSNACKs. If they were going to launch this a product that was distancing itself from the controversy surrounding WasabiWallet, the common sense approach probably would have been to avoid making the same mistakes. There is a possibility they concluded having blockchain analysis will help shield them in the event they were ever charged with any crimes such as money laundering.

This is the part I find confusing because whether they have blockchain analysis or not, they could be shutdown by the US or any law enforcement agency regardless of whether US citizens use their GingerWallet service or not. Maybe they took a business decision after witnessing the number of mixer/coinjoin cases with charges of money laundering being put before Courts therefore want to protect their position and I suppose looking at it from their perspective it is understandable.

Even by blocking USA IP addresses I think those residing in the US that are determined enough to use their services will find a way.

In practice, i expect they only block USA IP address from accessing their website and coordinator link. And don't forget someone can use different wallet (which support WabiSabi CoinJoin) and use their coordinator.

Exactly. It looks like they're trying to avoid being called money transmitters in the US, just as the zkSNACKs' coordinator.

It's possible they portray it as if that's the case, but considering that blockchain analysis is evidently flawed, it doesn't hold water. An American can exchange bitcoin with a European, and then mix "European bitcoin".

Why do Bitcoin businesses keep buying this harmful notion?

We literally crucified Wasabi wallet for selling out to blockchain analysis, two years ago. This project comes here and isn't even trying to hide their collaboration with them, and on top of that is basically doing everything that zkSNACKs did and expects us to applaud for them or something?

I can't say I'm not disappointed.

I understand that the whole point of this is to make a rebranding of Wasabi with a default working coordinator but their marketing is quite shameless IMO.

It's not a wallet I'd ever use (I can't, anyway - LOL!)

They even state that U.S. passport holders aren’t allowed to use it, so even if you’re in a different country you are still prohibited from using it. Unless they’re going to start doing KYC, this cannot be meaningfully enforced. If they could effectively block U.S. citizens it either wouldn’t be trustless like they claim or it wouldn’t even be a privacy wallet at all.

I can understand them trying to stay off law enforcement’s radar after the Samourai arrests, but anybody familiar with how Wasabi Wallet works, which they are a nearly identical fork of, understands that this is complete nonsense.

Their ToS state US citizens are not allowed to use their wallet therefore to some degree they are trying to avoid US jurisdiction but it will not help them if they are accused of money laundering as the US will seize their website regardless. Is it possible they are using blockchain analysis in order to present as a defence to legal authorities for mitigation if ever in future they were accused of money laundering?

One statement conflicts the other. It cannot simultaneously be "zero-knowledge" and not accept USA residents. To block USA residents, you need to know who's a USA resident.

If GingerWallet is following the exact same protocol as Wasabi (WabiSabi), then communication between the user and the coordinator is made using Tor circuits, otherwise input registration is not blinded. If that's the case, then the coordinator is incapable of identifying the region of the user.

Based on the "Why fork" section of this blog post, at some point in the future they might go in a different direction.

It depends on the state of mempool and how large their asset is before the split... As of this writing ^{[8 sat/vB]}, splitting 0.1BTC into 0.01BTC inputs would be cheaper than paying the coordinator fee in question.

As long as Ginger Wallet is entirely Transparent, I presume they can build a much stronger reputation around their name and Product.  Wasabi lost their reputation because of the way they handled the situation.

Working with Blockchain Analysis is understandable for a team of people who are not willing to compromise their own Safety and Freedom for a Product.  When lies come out, they doxx competitors et cetera, you probably naturally start questioning their real motives.  We never got answers for so many of our questions besides avoidance and 'I do not know', so the situation only became worse and worse.

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Got a few curiosities.

I wonder, is Ginger Wallet going to continue only tweaking future versions of Wasabi or are they going an entirely separate path and looking to build a separate Product?

This is a great incentive for new users who want to test it out or have small Inputs.  But can this be some how 'abused' by Ginger users resulting in spamming the Blockchain with unnecessary Transactions?  As in splitting their holdings into Inputs of 0.01 Bitcoin so they can avoid the Fees?  In my head, it would cost just about as much or even more if you did this than if you just paid the Fee, so I may be well wrong.

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A little note.  On a non Java Script browser, many of the images do not show up.

This looks like an interesting project, their website states: "Ginger Wallet forked from Wasabi Wallet. A new coordinator with an active coinjoin service has been established."

I was going to ask if GingerWallet was going to use a blockchain analysis company in the same way WasabiWallet did but I opted to check their Terms and Conditions.

It seems they are implementing the same use of third party blockchain analysis companies as WasabiWallet did therefore why do it when they saw how fast WasabiWallet lost trust and reputation because of it?

Reserved