Topic: 🔥 GingerWallet.io - Desktop, Non-custodial, Open source | #CoinJoin - page 4. (Read 2745 times)

Yes, even the free element is not 100% free but that is more down to the manner in which the change structure part of the coinjoin works. Before your post I did not know about any Kruw related podcast though I think there was some mention of an interview maybe in another thread but not sure will check it out. Having said that, it sounds as though it is the same as Ginger Wallet stated in an earlier response:

No, we would like to ask the users to use the Ginger Wallet instead of the Wasabi Wallet if they want to use the Ginger coordinator.

You seem to have the assumption that the two coordinator is totally compatible with both wallet clients, but that's not true.

Short history from the recent releases.
- With the release of Wasabi Wallet v2.0.8.1 (2024-06-08), the maximum coinjoin coordination fee was introduced.
The default was set that all non-free coordinators stopped to work, even if the current one was a non-free one. Also, unfortunately the users didn't understand the error messages and what needs to be done.
- With the release of Wasabi Wallet v2.1.0.0 (2024-07-10), the following changes applied:
The coordinator minimum input count must be at least 21. At that time the malicious coordinator ran with 1 or 2 minimum inputs; all other, but Kruw's coordinator ran with 20 minimum inputs.
All, but Kruw's coordinators instantly failed after a client update (free and non-free).
The maximum fee was set to 0.5% (this might hit the wasabist.io's random fee system, I don't remember). Note, that there was a plan to set it to 0.01%, that's literally generating dust.
Not mentioned downgrade: the fee exemption check was removed, so the Wasabi client asked LESS amount for their input even if they got exemption from the coordinator due to remix.
After this release all other fee based coordinator died as they weren't able to manage the changes on the coordinator side.
- With the release of Wasabi Wallet v2.2.0.0 (2024-09-19), our coordinator is effectively banned by the Wasabi client.

The Ginger coordinator worked with the Wasabi clients till now, because of constant code and setup updates.
On the other hand, you have to understand the Wasabi developers and their goal:

They have limited time to make the Wasabi project "truly" open source.
That means heavy simplification, removing the less used and not needed features (of course they won't advertise it in the release notes, but who would?).
They could have fix the remix issue, but there is no incentive to do so (as they won't get any money from it) and increases the complexity, instead they removed the whole fee concept.
For the same reason they removed the AML system, increases the complexity and it's not their risk to run the coordinator anymore (also there would be no fund to use it anyway due to the above line).

The execution wasn't necessarily nice, but their goal is quite understandable.
They were fair, and told their plan in advance (even if there were some timeline change from 6 months to 3.5 months), so we knew from the beginning that a fork is needed.

Thank you for your understanding.

It's not exactly and 100% free. Kruw explained in the Bitcoin Takeover podcast that aired a few days ago that he takes a few sats here and there. Since his coordinator has a lot of traffic, this isn't that small of a number. He can comment on that himself if he wants to, although this isn't the best place to do it.

There are several ways Ginger Wallet cannot compete with some coordinators but considering Ginger Wallet is effectively a business and they make their income from selling coinjoin services, it stands to reason they would want to stop/block people from using their star product with third party coordinators (and in the process effectively cutting them out of their 0.3% fee).

If there are some exceptional technical advances in their next release, it might appease some of the negative sentiments surrounding their wallet.

That is interesting to read, thank you for clarifying. You do realise you would like Wasabi Wallet users to change their coordinator to Ginger Wallet therefore why do you not want to reciprocate the same for Ginger Wallet users?

Wasabi was originally advertised as trustless, but it weren't really tested before as there was only one server (the backend and the coordinator weren't separated at that time) and that got the trust from the users.
After the removing of the original coordinator and making an easy way to create new ones, it revealed that this is not the case (in the past lots of the development went to defend the coordinator and not to the client for obvious reasons).
One of the mentioned issue is the free remix. The server sends whether a coin has exemption from fee, but the client does not check it. To be fair the protocol doesn't even provide a way to tell/advertise that there is a fee, but the remix is free, the server simply works that way by default.
To increase the trust, Ginger Wallet will check the remix in the upcoming release (in 1-2 weeks) and leave the coinjoin if it doesn't get it.
The 1-hop still won't be checked as that will need more development (still, the remix covers 99% of the case).

Ginger Wallet comes as a package, it's really up to you whether you use it or the Wasabi Wallet.
- The coinjoin uses AML, it's the user's preference whether they consider this as an advantage or disadvantage there is no point arguing about it here. To be honest the average user won't see any difference.
- 2FA protocol, the wallet can be stored encrypted so even if your computer and/or wallet data will be stolen and had a keylogger, your money is still most likely safe.
Of course, we plan to add more features over time.

It seems that it was a mistake on our side and previously only the backend was fixed to our servers. We never intended to allow other coordinators than the Ginger one from the beginning. Apologies for the misunderstanding.

The Wasabi coordinator is an open-source software, but you can't verify what's running in somebody else's computer. This is why the client needs to be configured to background check a host variety of things. This is where "trustless" originates.

It is true, however, that if a coordinator has more liquidity than Ginger, and is completely free, then I don't see how Ginger competes.

Whichever way you look this, it is true and cannot be denied. The fact of the matter is that the moment any coordinator has access to the funds (either directly or indirectly) the element of misuse of funds and/or misappropriation is a possibility if a malicious actor decides to use a coordinator for nefarious purposes. Whether anything related to theft will happen or not is different to whether it is a possibility.

Anyway, if there are open source coordinators with zero fees users would have to find something exceptional in Ginger Wallet for them to pay for coinjoins.

Sorry, I misread that.

He didn't say that making a service free makes it trusted. The idea is that if a coordinator charges a fee, you have to trust it to not be malicious, be fair, and not drain your wallet. We have already had some incidents with coordinators acting malicious in the past. I don't remember which service, though. And don't use your old "everything is open-source, there is no need to trust anyone" argument as you have done hundreds of times already. You have already stated that you have no coding skills yourselves and neither do the majority of people. Therefore, trust is part of the game to a certain degree.

Quote me where I said that making the service free makes it trusted.

You are mistaken, making a service free does not make it trusted, I don't know how you could possibly reach that conclusion.

Besides the 0.3% fee and the limitation on which coordinator to use, I would argue that using Ginger might be less trustless. In a recent blog post of Wasabi, their latest release removes coordinator fee. I would strongly recommend you to go and read it. It appears the case that using a non-free coordinator introduces a certain degree of trust, as if the coordinator is malicious, they can drain the user's funds.

However, the technical details in the client software are far beyond my knowledge, so please correct me, GingerWallet, if I'm mistaken.

It seems their breaking down of 4-5 smaller parts in the first round is probably the new function that should be appealing to those wanting to coinjoin. It was mentioned in their post below but other than that it seems there is no real benefit in using Ginger Wallet over Wasabi Wallet (especially if you factor in the key issue not being able to select your preferred coordinator).

Using Wasabi Wallet means you can select any coordinator you would like including without paying fees but using Ginger Wallet means you have to use their default coordinator and pay 0.3% fees. Given those options, the choice is clear for potential users.

If Open Coordinator continue with their zero fees policy for several months more, they might close the gap on Kruw significantly.

If we leave the coordinator issue aside for now, what would be the advantage of using the GingerWallet compared to using Wasabi Wallet if someone wants to do coinjoins? It's a rebranded Wasabi product with certain tweaks and changes. If it doesn't offer anything revolutionary different and also forces you to stick with the default coordinator, I would see no reason to use it. Again, this is only if I was interested in touching anything related to Wasabi.

I agree with you that this change GingerWallet made can negatively impact the interest for their software. Kruw's coordinator has the biggest share of the traffic already.

This has been 100% checked. The latest version of the Ginger Wallet reverts to the default Ginger Wallet coordinator no matter how many times you want to change to another option (for example Open Coordiantor) because editing the config file is not a problem but the settings only change when the wallet is restarted. The way Ginger Wallet have altered the open source code, it automatically reverts to the original config file including Ginger Wallet coordinator upon restart.

In theory yes. That function was working in their initial release but they have modified the code in the latest release in order to force users to pay Ginger Wallet in order to use their coinjoin instead of allowing them an opportunity to select a different coordinator.

And that will probably be the biggest problem you will face when trying to people to download the wallet.

Exciting news! 🎉 Ginger Coordinator hit over 10 BTC in daily traffic yesterday! 🚀 Remember, CoinJoin is free for transactions under 0.01 BTC (around $635), plus free remixes, and friends don't pay! 🙌

Come hang out with us on Telegram: https://t.me/GingerWallet
Or check us out at gingerwallet.io! 🌐

Certainly possible, but keep in mind that the two wallets begin to move to different directions regarding coinjoins. If you misunderstood something in your change or the protocol begins to differ and your client signs the transaction without all the outputs, even the free coordinator will gladly take your money.

If everything with GingerWallet is open-source, then those who know how to code could code out the function that the wallet resets itself back to the default Ginger coordinator after a restart or just stick with Wasabi if they don't want to be forced to use the GingerWallet coordinator. Not that I am recommending one over the other.