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Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. - page 1480. (Read 2032274 times)

legendary
Activity: 1316
Merit: 1005
May 22, 2012, 07:44:26 PM
I disagree with your disagreement  Wink The abandonment of the gold standard was redemption issue -- i.e. excessive printing --  not a centralization problem.  French moving their gold back was just an failed attempt on gold suppression scheme: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Gold_Pool

Leaving gold with Fed has always been more of a political gesture than logistic issue, even today much of the Germany and Chinese gold are still left with NY Fed, you think because it's too heavy?

The big gold cube might fall to the center of the earth because it's so heavy. Like the missing pyramids. You don't know about them? That's 'cause they sunk!

I still don't understand why you need to move gold around on a daily basis -- gold/silver certificates work just fine, as long as there's convertibility.

Yup. The dollar is a claim on the nation's accumulated wealth, held mainly in the form of gold. Without convertibility, you may as well have bought shares of a company that the company refuses to recognize.
legendary
Activity: 1441
Merit: 1000
Live and enjoy experiments
May 22, 2012, 07:34:17 PM

AFAIK, Nixon abandoning gold standard in 1971 was neither because we couldn't move gold fast enough,  nor because gold centralizing didn't work.

i disagree.  the US trading partners took the word of the US Treasury/Fed that theirs/ours gold reserves were actually present in Fort Knox (centralized).  the trading partners left them there b/c it was too inconvenient/heavy to be moving around the world on a daily basis. 

eventually the French got suspicious and called us on it.  what did we do?  DEFAULT.
I disagree with your disagreement  Wink The abandonment of the gold standard was redemption issue -- i.e. excessive printing --  not a centralization problem.  French moving their gold back was just an failed attempt on gold suppression scheme: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Gold_Pool

Leaving gold with Fed has always been more of a political gesture than logistic issue, even today much of the Germany and Chinese gold are still left with NY Fed, you think because it's too heavy?


I still don't understand why you need to move gold around on a daily basis -- gold/silver certificates work just fine, as long as there's convertibility.
legendary
Activity: 4760
Merit: 1283
May 22, 2012, 07:30:16 PM

how likely is it for the Internet to go down?  wasn't it designed to withstand a nuclear war?


To the extent that it would not support a reliable Bitcoin network operating at scale and under attack by the owners of significant chunks of the global network infrastructure...it's almost a certainty.


no way.

Watch and learn then.


Woot Tvbcof is gonna take down the internets!! Wink

LOL!  how many decades has it been up and running w/o a takedown?  and everyone thinks i'm cocky. Cheesy

Smiley  I didn't say I was an owner of a significant chunk of the global network infrastructure.  It's more than I have some sense of the layout coupled with some intuition about these sorts of things complements of my vocation.

But if you want to lay a big bet on my being wrong, I can't stop you...  Chances are we'll never find out for other reasons (though they would be equally good at souring your bet unfortunately.)

legendary
Activity: 1764
Merit: 1002
May 22, 2012, 07:29:12 PM

how likely is it for the Internet to go down?  wasn't it designed to withstand a nuclear war?


To the extent that it would not support a reliable Bitcoin network operating at scale and under attack by the owners of significant chunks of the global network infrastructure...it's almost a certainty.


no way.

Watch and learn then.



Woot Tvbcof is gonna take down the internets!! Wink

Edit: Bask in my newfound HERONESS


LOL!  how many decades has it been up and running w/o a takedown?  and everyone thinks i'm cocky... Cheesy

sorry tvbcof; you're a troll. Wink
legendary
Activity: 1316
Merit: 1005
May 22, 2012, 07:21:57 PM
So then gold is obviously radically undervalued..  160,000 per ounce please..

Us phyzzz holders can only hope. Please hold the war, famine, and roving gangs Smiley
legendary
Activity: 1316
Merit: 1005
May 22, 2012, 07:20:10 PM
how likely is it for the Internet to go down?  wasn't it designed to withstand a nuclear war?
To the extent that it would not support a reliable Bitcoin network operating at scale and under attack by the owners of significant chunks of the global network infrastructure...it's almost a certainty.
no way.
Watch and learn then.

The damage need not come from physical sources.

BLACK DETH OF TEH INTERWEBZ!!
legendary
Activity: 966
Merit: 1003
May 22, 2012, 07:18:13 PM

how likely is it for the Internet to go down?  wasn't it designed to withstand a nuclear war?


To the extent that it would not support a reliable Bitcoin network operating at scale and under attack by the owners of significant chunks of the global network infrastructure...it's almost a certainty.


no way.

Watch and learn then.



Woot Tvbcof is gonna take down the internets!! Wink

Edit: Bask in my newfound HERONESS
legendary
Activity: 1316
Merit: 1005
May 22, 2012, 07:17:26 PM
how likely is it for the Internet to go down?  wasn't it designed to withstand a nuclear war?

a gold layer adds too much complexity, ironically.

It isn't likely, but the possibility remains - localized disruptions are more likely. The financial system is too crucial to modern life to leave to chance.

Seatbelts are annoying, cumbersome, and can cause more harm than help if used improperly. But in a rollover accident, you'll be glad you weren't ejected and crushed or dismembered.
legendary
Activity: 4760
Merit: 1283
May 22, 2012, 07:17:10 PM

how likely is it for the Internet to go down?  wasn't it designed to withstand a nuclear war?


To the extent that it would not support a reliable Bitcoin network operating at scale and under attack by the owners of significant chunks of the global network infrastructure...it's almost a certainty.


no way.

Watch and learn then.

legendary
Activity: 1764
Merit: 1002
May 22, 2012, 07:16:39 PM

how likely is it for the Internet to go down?  wasn't it designed to withstand a nuclear war?


To the extent that it would not support a reliable Bitcoin network operating at scale and under attack by the owners of significant chunks of the global network infrastructure...it's almost a certainty.



no way.
legendary
Activity: 4760
Merit: 1283
May 22, 2012, 07:15:14 PM

how likely is it for the Internet to go down?  wasn't it designed to withstand a nuclear war?


To the extent that it would not support a reliable Bitcoin network operating at scale and under attack by the owners of significant chunks of the global network infrastructure...it's almost a certainty.

legendary
Activity: 1316
Merit: 1005
May 22, 2012, 07:12:40 PM
Corrected for inflation, fuel costs twice what they were back then. And U.S. international trade is now about 50 times what it was back then. So we're talking about a multiple of 100 times the cost of doing business that way compared to say, 1938.

What about increased carrying capacity, range, and fuel efficiency?
legendary
Activity: 966
Merit: 1003
May 22, 2012, 07:11:15 PM

I believe the topic was international settlements.  The problems with paper in this area have been addressed.

Settle up every few weeks with cargo jets.  *shrug*  In WW2 they used boats filled with gold and silver, but its the modern age, jets will work just as well..

Since that time energy costs, and the size of economies accross the globe have skyrocketed. It's not the same anymore.

Now, if you really want to scale back to WW2 levels of global development...

So kick up the value of gold to match the worldwide economy/developement level...  Its just a means to keep score, if that much weight of gold is required to settle up for smaller transactions obviously the value of gold is too low..  Oh wait we have.. gold is 1600 an ounce now, not 30.. Wink


Corrected for inflation, fuel costs twice what they were back then. And U.S. international trade is now about 50 times what it was back then. So we're talking about a multiple of 100 times the cost of doing business that way compared to say, 1938.

So then gold is obviously radically undervalued..  160,000 per ounce please..

legendary
Activity: 1764
Merit: 1002
May 22, 2012, 07:10:12 PM
my point is you don't need gold.  Bitcoin can serve as a reserve standard beneath a fiat system.

chodpaba's point about an abstraction layer wouldn't apply to Bitcoin b/c settlement could occur instantaneously btwn countries.

I agree that gold wouldn't be necessary, but it provides that final bit of protection. One of Bitcoin's main vulnerabilities is the communications infrastructure. If that's incapacitated in a major way, even temporarily, transactions using Bitcoin would be burdensome at best without some system developed for easy offline non-digital exchange.

Having gold available would be the safety net that allows things to keep going more smoothly and reliably than any centrally managed interim solution. We all grumble about saving for a rainy day when we could make use of it now, but we're awfully glad we have it when it's needed.

how likely is it for the Internet to go down?  wasn't it designed to withstand a nuclear war?

a gold layer adds too much complexity, ironically.
legendary
Activity: 1316
Merit: 1005
May 22, 2012, 07:08:16 PM
my point is you don't need gold.  Bitcoin can serve as a reserve standard beneath a fiat system.

chodpaba's point about an abstraction layer wouldn't apply to Bitcoin b/c settlement could occur instantaneously btwn countries.

I agree that gold wouldn't be necessary, but it provides that final bit of protection. One of Bitcoin's main vulnerabilities is the communications infrastructure. If that's incapacitated in a major way, even temporarily, transactions using Bitcoin would be burdensome at best without some system developed for easy offline non-digital exchange.

Having gold available would be the safety net that allows things to keep going more smoothly and reliably than any centrally managed interim solution. We all grumble about saving for a rainy day when we could make use of it now, but we're awfully glad we have it when it's needed.
legendary
Activity: 1316
Merit: 1005
May 22, 2012, 07:02:00 PM
Okay, you're starting to make some sense. So, you propose that Bitcoin and PM's should be a high-volume trading pair.

Effectively. Gold as a relatively stationary reserve distributed globally; Bitcoin as a trinary money.

I use the term trinary because Bitcoin satisfies Triffin's dilemma, acting simultaneously and indefinitely as a Store of Value and Means of Exchange, with the resulting effect of being a reliable Metric of Value.
legendary
Activity: 1764
Merit: 1002
May 22, 2012, 06:51:54 PM
So kick up the value of gold to match the worldwide economy/developement level...  Its just a means to keep score, if that much weight of gold is required to settle up for smaller transactions obviously the value of gold is too low..  Oh wait we have.. gold is 1600 an ounce now, not 30.. Wink

Right now the battle is to control the majority of all available gold supply. As long as there is still physical present that can be extracted from current holders, and no other catastrophic catalysts occur, the game continues. Basically, anyone who can be persuaded or forced to sell his physical holdings is a target and will be squeezed until there is barely any but direct mine supply available from mining operations that can't be nationalized.

That's when revaluation is guaranteed. It's a possibility at any point from now until then - the probability just increases until that limit is reached.

The concern that tvbcof expressed about excessive concentration is real and valid. If there is too great a centralized holding of gold, whatever authority has it will wield an undue amount of influencing power. Yet again, that's where Bitcoin comes in Smiley

my point is you don't need gold.  Bitcoin can serve as a reserve standard beneath a fiat system.

chodpaba's point about an abstraction layer wouldn't apply to Bitcoin b/c settlement could occur instantaneously btwn countries.
legendary
Activity: 4760
Merit: 1283
May 22, 2012, 06:50:33 PM


The cost of moving gold isn't very high, international wires aren't free either..  I can't imagine that at all, if you can't settle up on the spot, then you probably shouldn't be making the purchase..  

have you ever heard of pirates?

yup.. Have you ever heard of identity theft, chargebacks, wire fraud??

All of these enumerated problems and many more can go out the window with a well regulated cashless one-world currency and adequate biometric and individual tracking solutions.

I'm looking forward (with horror) to these selling points to be massively popular with a majority of my fellow peeps.  And those who are in need of corp/gov assistance for their basic necessities of life probably won't even need to have an opinion on the matter.

legendary
Activity: 966
Merit: 1003
May 22, 2012, 06:44:16 PM


Settle up every few weeks with cargo jets.  *shrug*  In WW2 they used boats filled with gold and silver, but its the modern age, jets will work just as well..

As soon as a default risk appears, people won't do business with them unless they can settle on the spot.  If this means moving gold across the globe their cost of doing business skyrockets.  Can you imagine the newsmakers spreading rumors and forcing countries to go bankrupt even when they were fine before business became prohibitively expensive?  I can.

The cost of moving gold isn't very high, international wires aren't free either..  I can't imagine that at all, if you can't settle up on the spot, then you probably shouldn't be making the purchase..  

Quote
You can't have some in physical and some in paper??  Roll Eyes

What do you think paper is?  It's a promise to settle later.

ok??  and how does that mean that if your a default risk you shouldn't be required to settle on the spot??

Go lend Dank some BTC if you think everyone should be given credit..

Markets sometimes follow rumors more than reality... Should your cost of doing business really be exposed to a 10% rise if someone plants a few false seeds in the media?  Sure, it's no worse than the current situation, I'm just saying Bitcoin would be superior and thus eventually it will win out as long as the internet and globalized trading continue.

10% rise?? wtf it doesn't cost $2000 to airmail 1 lb... 
legendary
Activity: 966
Merit: 1003
May 22, 2012, 06:42:19 PM


The cost of moving gold isn't very high, international wires aren't free either..  I can't imagine that at all, if you can't settle up on the spot, then you probably shouldn't be making the purchase..  

have you ever heard of pirates?

yup.. Have you ever heard of identity theft, chargebacks, wire fraud??
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