Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. - page 1482. (Read 2032274 times)

Quote from: silverbox on May 22, 2012, 05:49:15 PM

Quote from: silverbox on May 22, 2012, 05:42:41 PM

Only, a decent chunk of people won't do this, because they cant. Just like they can't function without plastic.

So those peeps make their beds. The prudent ones will be protected.

I run the plastic like crazy, they give out tons of free shit, cashback, points, bonus money for the first 500, 1000 whever you spend. I credit card hop those bitches, get a new one every few months take the free shit, dumb ass's. I always pay em off every month, never balance transfer... and peeps wonder why the banks are going broke.. The next one on my list is a capital one free $100 with the first $500 spent, 1.5% cashback. I'll take that 20% thanks.. The one I been using for the last few months.. free $200 for the first $1000 spent.. 1% cashback, 5% on select stuff, chase freedom.. I could just pay cash, but why?? when I get a 15-20% dicsount to use the plastic..

But do you see the problem? If "those peeps" account for the mass of the economy they don't just make their own beds... It affects the whole economy... It affects you.

Ah but in a pre '33 style system their isn't constant inflation and easy money, easy credit.. Peeps won't get a zillion chances at easy credit, you screw up paying somebody back, you just won't get any credit anymore. The users (aka "those peeps") won't affect shit, cause they won't have any credit or paper or clanking coins, they will actually have to work for a living and live within their means. Peeps from the great depression era are savers, not users.

miscreanity

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What, you want a law saying its legal tender for all debts public and private?? Go to Utah Wink

It doesn't take long to convert paper gold/silver to fiat.. Its functionally the same as currency.

Too hot

It doesn't take long, but it generally can't be exchanged directly. That kills the convenience factor.

cypherdoc

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Quote from: bitcool on May 22, 2012, 05:33:39 PM

Quote from: cypherdoc on May 22, 2012, 05:43:04 PM

In order for any of that to happen you really must have a banking system set up to serve a functioning economy with the use of the metal. Which is where Utah has thus far fallen short, which will relegate the use of PM's there to the role of a novelty.

there is no way today's modern economy or banking system could function with a gold standard. you couldn't move the metal fast enough.

centralizing it at the LBMA or Comex introduces all sorts of accounting problems. once you have a fiat representation of the metal the very function of the gold reserve can be manipulated.

AFAIK, Nixon abandoning gold standard in 1971 was neither because we couldn't move gold fast enough, nor because gold centralizing didn't work.

i disagree. the US trading partners took the word of the US Treasury/Fed that theirs/ours gold reserves were actually present in Fort Knox (centralized). the trading partners left them there b/c it was too inconvenient/heavy to be moving around the world on a daily basis.

eventually the French got suspicious and called us on it. what did we do? DEFAULT.

silverbox

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So long as there is a mechanism to take delivery expeditiously at the stated rates of exchange, then its not fractionalized.

there is no way to take delivery of pm's on a global scale expeditiously. that's the point.

We run out of cargo jets or sumpin??

silverbox

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Quote from: silverbox on May 22, 2012, 05:37:13 PM

Quote from: silverbox on May 22, 2012, 05:33:15 PM

In order for any of that to happen you really must have a banking system set up to serve a functioning economy with the use of the metal. Which is where Utah has thus far fallen short, which will relegate the use of PM's there to the role of a novelty.

there is no way today's modern economy or banking system could function with a gold standard. you couldn't move the metal fast enough.

centralizing it at the LBMA or Comex introduces all sorts of accounting problems. once you have a fiat representation of the metal the very function of the gold reserve can be manipulated.

That's right. Heavy metal is still heavy. Unless you control it physically (either in your pocket or in a vault) you can not be assured that what you are transferring is fully backed by the metal, i.e. the metal itself. Practical, daily movements will require the addition of an abstraction layer and that will be vulnerable to fractionalization. The direct transfer of value in the form of the metal itself will always be relegated to a backwater of economic functionality.

So long as there is a mechanism to take delivery expeditiously at the stated rates of exchange, then its not fractionalized.

Fractionalization depends on the notion that everyone won't do that, and they won't unless there is a run, and there wouldn't be a run if everyone is assured that the full value of their currency in the form of the metal is at hand... It is still a house of cards that is dependent on the assurance by an external authority that things are operating as they should.

Good point, but a prudent person could just function completely with physical under such a system (pre '33 for example) and be assured that things are operating as they should for them personally. So long as a decent chunk of the people did this, the system would be authentic.

Only, a decent chunk of people won't do this, because they cant. Just like they can't function without plastic.

So those peeps make their beds. The prudent ones will be protected.

I run the plastic like crazy, they give out tons of free shit, cashback, points, bonus money for the first 500, 1000 whever you spend. I credit card hop those bitches, get a new one every few months take the free shit, dumb ass's. I always pay em off every month, never balance transfer... and peeps wonder why the banks are going broke.. The next one on my list is a capital one free $100 with the first $500 spent, 1.5% cashback. I'll take that 20% thanks.. The one I been using for the last few months.. free $200 for the first $1000 spent.. 1% cashback, 5% on select stuff, chase freedom.. I could just pay cash, but why?? when I get a 15-20% dicsount to use the plastic..

cypherdoc

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Quote from: miscreanity on May 22, 2012, 05:29:38 PM

that is best handled by a modernized gold ratio system integrated with the fiat system.

Uh isn't that what we already have?? lol

the ratio is like the spot price yo... (+~3% if you want to take delivery)

yes, but what about THE CONSPIRACY!?!!!!

cypherdoc

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Quote from: miscreanity on May 22, 2012, 05:37:47 PM

So long as there is a mechanism to take delivery expeditiously at the stated rates of exchange, then its not fractionalized.

there is no way to take delivery of pm's on a global scale expeditiously. that's the point.

silverbox

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Quote from: silverbox on May 22, 2012, 05:33:15 PM

Quote from: miscreanity on May 22, 2012, 05:29:38 PM

that is best handled by a modernized gold ratio system integrated with the fiat system.

Uh isn't that what we already have?? lol

the ratio is like the spot price yo... (+~3% if you want to take delivery)

Yes, but it's officially treated as a tradeable asset, not a currency. Treating it as a currency would be very simple in practice.

What, you want a law saying its legal tender for all debts public and private?? Go to Utah Wink

It doesn't take long to convert paper gold/silver to fiat.. Its functionally the same as currency.

miscreanity

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Activity: 1316

Merit: 1005

Quote from: silverbox on May 22, 2012, 05:33:15 PM

Quote from: miscreanity on May 22, 2012, 05:29:38 PM

that is best handled by a modernized gold ratio system integrated with the fiat system.

Uh isn't that what we already have?? lol

the ratio is like the spot price yo... (+~3% if you want to take delivery)

Yes, but it's officially treated as a tradeable asset, not a currency. Treating it as a currency would be very simple in practice.

silverbox

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Activity: 966

Merit: 1003

In order for any of that to happen you really must have a banking system set up to serve a functioning economy with the use of the metal. Which is where Utah has thus far fallen short, which will relegate the use of PM's there to the role of a novelty.

there is no way today's modern economy or banking system could function with a gold standard. you couldn't move the metal fast enough.

centralizing it at the LBMA or Comex introduces all sorts of accounting problems. once you have a fiat representation of the metal the very function of the gold reserve can be manipulated.

That's right. Heavy metal is still heavy. Unless you control it physically (either in your pocket or in a vault) you can not be assured that what you are transferring is fully backed by the metal, i.e. the metal itself. Practical, daily movements will require the addition of an abstraction layer and that will be vulnerable to fractionalization. The direct transfer of value in the form of the metal itself will always be relegated to a backwater of economic functionality.

So long as there is a mechanism to take delivery expeditiously at the stated rates of exchange, then its not fractionalized.

Fractionalization depends on the notion that everyone won't do that, and they won't unless there is a run, and there wouldn't be a run if everyone is assured that the full value of their currency in the form of the metal is at hand... It is still a house of cards that is dependent on the assurance by an external authority that things are operating as they should.

Good point, but a prudent person could just function completely with physical under such a system (pre '33 for example) and be assured that things are operating as they should for them personally. So long as a decent chunk of the people did this, the system would be authentic.

miscreanity

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If you do not physically control it you do not own it. If you are given something to represent the value of it you have exchanged it for that representation. Somebody else controls the actual, physical metal.

bitcool

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Live and enjoy experiments

Quote from: miscreanity on May 22, 2012, 05:29:38 PM

In order for any of that to happen you really must have a banking system set up to serve a functioning economy with the use of the metal. Which is where Utah has thus far fallen short, which will relegate the use of PM's there to the role of a novelty.

there is no way today's modern economy or banking system could function with a gold standard. you couldn't move the metal fast enough.

centralizing it at the LBMA or Comex introduces all sorts of accounting problems. once you have a fiat representation of the metal the very function of the gold reserve can be manipulated.

AFAIK, Nixon abandoning gold standard in 1971 was neither because we couldn't move gold fast enough, nor because gold centralizing didn't work.

silverbox

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Activity: 966

Merit: 1003

that is best handled by a modernized gold ratio system integrated with the fiat system.

Uh isn't that what we already have?? lol

the ratio is like the spot price yo... (+~3% if you want to take delivery)

miscreanity

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Activity: 1316

Merit: 1005

Quote from: hazek on May 22, 2012, 05:26:22 PM

In order for any of that to happen you really must have a banking system set up to serve a functioning economy with the use of the metal. Which is where Utah has thus far fallen short, which will relegate the use of PM's there to the role of a novelty.

there is no way today's modern economy or banking system could function with a gold standard. you couldn't move the metal fast enough.

centralizing it at the LBMA or Comex introduces all sorts of accounting problems. once you have a fiat representation of the metal the very function of the gold reserve can be manipulated.

Centralization does introduce additional risks. Decentralization, just like with public banking, modifies the incentive structure at a cost of redundancy. The greater the number of relatively equal participants, the harder it is to game the system. It's easier to work with the system than force it to submit. Distributed storage of gold at local or regional public banks would be the same as distributed fiat holdings, with the same effect.

Gold alone cannot be divided to a high enough degree. Fiat alone, in the hands of a central and insulated authority, cannot be prevented from diluting to too high a degree. Neither can be used alone in the context of growing human social structures. Of course, Bitcoin is proving that it can take the place of both, but in reality there is going to be a transition period - that is best handled by a modernized gold ratio system integrated with the fiat system.

silverbox

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Quote from: cypherdoc on May 22, 2012, 04:57:06 PM

Quote from: tvbcof on May 22, 2012, 04:39:40 PM

I dis-agree. In a reasonably tight 'one world' solution a lot of the problems the EURO has (or pretends to have) would vanish.

let me give you several reasons why there will never be a one world currency:

Just because you don't think gold is not a world currency doesn't mean it's not.

Word.

hazek

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Quote from: cypherdoc on May 22, 2012, 04:57:06 PM

Quote from: tvbcof on May 22, 2012, 04:39:40 PM

I dis-agree. In a reasonably tight 'one world' solution a lot of the problems the EURO has (or pretends to have) would vanish.

let me give you several reasons why there will never be a one world currency:

Just because you don't think gold is not a world currency doesn't mean it's not.

silverbox

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In order for any of that to happen you really must have a banking system set up to serve a functioning economy with the use of the metal. Which is where Utah has thus far fallen short, which will relegate the use of PM's there to the role of a novelty.

there is no way today's modern economy or banking system could function with a gold standard. you couldn't move the metal fast enough.

centralizing it at the LBMA or Comex introduces all sorts of accounting problems. once you have a fiat representation of the metal the very function of the gold reserve can be manipulated.

That's right. Heavy metal is still heavy. Unless you control it physically (either in your pocket or in a vault) you can not be assured that what you are transferring is fully backed by the metal, i.e. the metal itself. Practical, daily movements will require the addition of an abstraction layer and that will be vulnerable to fractionalization. The direct transfer of value in the form of the metal itself will always be relegated to a backwater of economic functionality.

So long as there is a mechanism to take delivery expeditiously at the stated rates of exchange, then its not fractionalized.

miscreanity

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It is cute that you would link to Investopedia in order to put some authoritiative weight behind your opinion.

I don't care what you think is 'cute'. You didn't provide a definition yourself, so unless you're going to do so, troll elsewhere.

No, monitization in this case would make gold and silver subject to the same kind of controls that are now placed upon currencies. And it would most likely mean that governments would confiscate a goodly chunk of them as occurred in 1933. In order for any of that to happen you really must have a banking system set up to serve a functioning economy with the use of the metal. Which is where Utah has thus far fallen short, which will relegate the use of PM's there to the role of a novelty.

Yes, liable to taxation, etc. So what? The supply cannot be fabricated the fiat is, which means theft is not possible in the manner it is with a strictly fiat system. Nor does it imply confiscation. And it certainly isn't as though the banking system is incapable of accommodating another foreign exchange unit, because that's all gold's representation would be - another currency. Stored in a vault, the amount digitally credited to an account, digitally accessible, and digitally transferable regardless of where the metal is stored.

cypherdoc

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