Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. - page 1496. (Read 2032274 times)

Quote from: tvbcof on May 15, 2012, 01:23:11 PM

Quote from: tvbcof on May 15, 2012, 12:58:31 PM

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It would be interesting to see if there is a popularization of gold bullion in the form factor of a spaghetti noodle. This would allow some amount of non-destructive testing based on thermal expansion, and semi-non-destructive testing by giving the unit something of a bending test. I guess the effectiveness would depend on what sort of metallurgy is possible with tungsten in order to impact its modulus of thermal expansion and elastic characteristics.

Another example of the ridiculous overhead for gold.

Not to disagree with you point, but one could also argue that it is also an indication of the ridiculous value of the element.

Or, just use your private keys to decode a public ledger.

Physical PMs and Bitcoin each have their strengths, weaknesses, and potential failure modes. But dealing with neither PMs nor Bitcoin is particularly difficult so I'm happily doing both and anticipate continuing to do so making whatever adjustments I deem appropriate as conditions evolve.

tvbcof

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Quote from: tvbcof on May 15, 2012, 12:58:31 PM

...

It would be interesting to see if there is a popularization of gold bullion in the form factor of a spaghetti noodle. This would allow some amount of non-destructive testing based on thermal expansion, and semi-non-destructive testing by giving the unit something of a bending test. I guess the effectiveness would depend on what sort of metallurgy is possible with tungsten in order to impact its modulus of thermal expansion and elastic characteristics.

Another example of the ridiculous overhead for gold.

Not to disagree with you point, but one could also argue that it is also an indication of the ridiculous value of the element.

As I think about things, one could have a pretty handy and pretty fool proof device which consists of a water bath, a bending gauge and a length gauge all in one unit. This would measure density, thermal, and elastic properties in one fairly quick and easy run (assuming my spaghetti form factor bullion idea.) As a optional features, throw in some sort of a spectrometer to look for other elements and maybe a piezo operated device to characterize the resonate characteristics of the sample.

I officially claim intellectual property rights over all of the above ideas

silverbox

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Quote from: tvbcof on May 15, 2012, 12:58:31 PM

Quote from: silverbox on May 15, 2012, 12:44:59 PM

Quote from: tvbcof on May 15, 2012, 12:40:09 PM

Quote from: silverbox on May 15, 2012, 12:44:59 PM

And most of that "official" gold is really just paper...

Or tungsten salted bars Wink

Someone here was planning to 'melt tungsten' and pour it into hollowed out gold bars. Good luck with that Wink

have to do it the other way around, tungstens melting temp is like 5x that of gold..

Au: mp: 1337 Kelvin
W: mp: 3695 K

You might be able to melt tungsten in a graphite or diamond crucible, but I would guess that applying and holding that much energy in the apparatus would be a challenge. And, of course, it's likely to turn the recipient gold container into a molten mess almost instantly unless the mass was so big as to make the whole adventure rather pointless.

But anyway, it would be easy enough to drill out the gold and hammer in some pegs which is almost certainly one of the techniques used.

It would be interesting to see if there is a popularization of gold bullion in the form factor of a spaghetti noodle. This would allow some amount of non-destructive testing based on thermal expansion, and semi-non-destructive testing by giving the unit something of a bending test. I guess the effectiveness would depend on what sort of metallurgy is possible with tungsten in order to impact its modulus of thermal expansion and elastic characteristics.

No need for all that.. A leeb hardness tester or a high current conductivity test should be able to ferret out any tungsten in a non destructive way Wink

tvbcof

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Quote from: tvbcof on May 15, 2012, 12:40:09 PM

Quote from: tvbcof on May 15, 2012, 12:40:09 PM

And most of that "official" gold is really just paper...

Or tungsten salted bars Wink

Someone here was planning to 'melt tungsten' and pour it into hollowed out gold bars. Good luck with that Wink

have to do it the other way around, tungstens melting temp is like 5x that of gold..

Au: mp: 1337 Kelvin
W: mp: 3695 K

You might be able to melt tungsten in a graphite or diamond crucible, but I would guess that applying and holding that much energy in the apparatus would be a challenge. And, of course, it's likely to turn the recipient gold container into a molten mess almost instantly unless the mass was so big as to make the whole adventure rather pointless.

But anyway, it would be easy enough to drill out the gold and hammer in some pegs which is almost certainly one of the techniques used.

It would be interesting to see if there is a popularization of gold bullion in the form factor of a spaghetti noodle. This would allow some amount of non-destructive testing based on thermal expansion, and semi-non-destructive testing by giving the unit something of a bending test. I guess the effectiveness would depend on what sort of metallurgy is possible with tungsten in order to impact its modulus of thermal expansion and elastic characteristics.

silverbox

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And most of that "official" gold is really just paper...

Or tungsten salted bars Wink

Someone here was planning to 'melt tungsten' and pour it into hollowed out gold bars. Good luck with that Wink

have to do it the other way around, tungstens melting temp is like 5x that of gold..

tvbcof

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And most of that "official" gold is really just paper...

Or tungsten salted bars Wink

Someone here was planning to 'melt tungsten' and pour it into hollowed out gold bars. Good luck with that Wink

bitsire

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Quote from: silverbox on May 15, 2012, 10:19:25 AM

And most of that "official" gold is really just paper...

Or tungsten salted bars Wink

hazek

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Quote from: silverbox on May 15, 2012, 10:19:25 AM

i think its fair to say that today we heard a "snap". a snap in the nerves of the many vs. the nerves of one.

the problem is, i don't see this changing for a long time. we are about to breach the 1523 level and once that happens it will get even uglier.

You don't think China and various other countries will be buying up gold? Eventually all of the EE's gold will be in China's vaults if they don't stop selling it at the depressed Paper price..

only about 10% - 25% of all gold ever mined is in "official" hands, the rest is held privately.

I recommend you read this blog post: http://www.zerohedge.com/news/must-read-another-perspective

It deals with what's to come, the role of gold, ect.. I found it a really good read too.

cypherdoc

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i think its fair to say that today we heard a "snap". a snap in the nerves of the many vs. the nerves of one.

the problem is, i don't see this changing for a long time. we are about to breach the 1523 level and once that happens it will get even uglier.

You don't think China and various other countries will be buying up gold? Eventually all of the EE's gold will be in China's vaults if they don't stop selling it at the depressed Paper price..

thats exactly the problem. they are.

silverbox

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Quote from: bitsire on May 14, 2012, 10:59:37 PM

i think its fair to say that today we heard a "snap". a snap in the nerves of the many vs. the nerves of one.

the problem is, i don't see this changing for a long time. we are about to breach the 1523 level and once that happens it will get even uglier.

You don't think China and various other countries will be buying up gold? Eventually all of the EE's gold will be in China's vaults if they don't stop selling it at the depressed Paper price..

hazek

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Hi all, I'm starting to think we are about to have a repeat of 2008 when pretty much everything collapsed and the USD shot up in the perceived flight to safety. If this does happen, what do you think will happen to the price of bitcoins? I assume they would plummet along with stocks, gold and silver, at least at first? I've been stacking gold and silver for a while now but I'm new to bitcoin so I'm trying to come up with a plan for my dry powder when the collapse comes (which is starting to look like any day/week now).

I have the same opinion purely based what happened in 08. I think it all depends on what the politicians but more importantly central bankers will do once the various debt starts to implode, I'm 98% sure they'll counterfeit some more trying to reinflate which will eventually end in rising prices.

bitsire

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Quote from: bitsire on May 14, 2012, 10:59:37 PM

If there are people chasing USD isn't it also possible that a certain amount of Bitcoin could be chased as well? Say, from some Euro heavy Greeks...

Chodpaba, this is exactly one of the reasons that led me to raise the question - this collapse is not the same as 2008... Bitcoin value could very well shoot up if people start dumping their fiat currencies for it.

As Notme says, it's highly unlikely for it to drop below $3 so I guess all one can do is buy now and try to keep some dry powder aside in case we are given a fire sale.

notme

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Hi all, I'm starting to think we are about to have a repeat of 2008 when pretty much everything collapsed and the USD shot up in the perceived flight to safety. If this does happen, what do you think will happen to the price of bitcoins? I assume they would plummet along with stocks, gold and silver, at least at first? I've been stacking gold and silver for a while now but I'm new to bitcoin so I'm trying to come up with a plan for my dry powder when the collapse comes (which is starting to look like any day/week now).

If we start moving quickly down in other markets, I wouldn't be terribly surprised by bitcoin taking a brief dip as well. I anticipate it will meet good support before it heads below $3, if it even makes it that low. Gold is usually the first to bottom, but bitcoin sometimes leads gold due to the 24/7 nature of it and the unrestricted access to trading info.

bitsire

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Hi all, I'm starting to think we are about to have a repeat of 2008 when pretty much everything collapsed and the USD shot up in the perceived flight to safety. If this does happen, what do you think will happen to the price of bitcoins? I assume they would plummet along with stocks, gold and silver, at least at first? I've been stacking gold and silver for a while now but I'm new to bitcoin so I'm trying to come up with a plan for my dry powder when the collapse comes (which is starting to look like any day/week now).

miscreanity

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Quote from: cypherdoc on May 14, 2012, 06:42:22 PM

Quote from: miscreanity on May 14, 2012, 06:24:10 PM

Not at all - he's exceptionally capable of perceiving the dynamics within the financial system. It's just incredibly painful to see Mr. Market's continued rejection of the real, physical nature of reality in favor of an encapsulated view on financial instruments - especially when the structure is laid bare for all to see, and even further when he Mr. Market ~~can~~ will see the big picture in regard to Bitcoin, which is isomorphic to the situation in physical gold.

The greatest danger to remaining in the bankster sandbox is that there's no way of knowing when you'll be forcibly kicked out without your accumulated wealth, nor when the sinkhole it's built on top of will swallow everything up whole. The last people I want to see wiped out are those with the vision to understand Bitcoin - this community is the future of finance, and it needs to remain strong.

FTFY

The western market is not greater than the productive capacity of the entire world - it is part of it.

i think its fair to say that today we heard a "snap". a snap in the nerves of the many vs. the nerves of one.

the problem is, i don't see this changing for a long time. we are about to breach the 1523 level and once that happens it will get even uglier.

This decline has actually been my biggest yawn yet.

That will be the separation of paper & physical. A spike with the USD in the hundreds of basis points without correcting is what would indicate it. Every time reality is rejected by the financial part of the world, the greater the chances of that complete separation. If that happens, financial instruments' representation of real value evaporates as long as the separation persists.

Holding dollars on the expectation of exchanging them for Euros and vice versa only lasts so long before there is a need to exchange the currency for real assets. Service economies contribute to this insular situation, further obfuscating the available supply of real assets. In other words, it doesn't matter how many financial instruments are held: we still need to eat. For those who don't grow their own food, only the most reliable form(s) of money will survive.

tvbcof

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