Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. - page 361.

tabnloz

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Quote from: sidhujag on May 12, 2015, 06:04:19 PM

http://news.goldseek.com/GoldSeek/1431444202.php

Getting closer to the moment it works until it doesnt.

Not quite there yet.

Happened for a few hours today as well. Japan, then Europe. Again though, someone stepped in.

sidhujag

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http://news.goldseek.com/GoldSeek/1431444202.php

Getting closer to the moment it works until it doesnt.

Not quite there yet.

cypherdoc

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Richard Gendal Brown, who i've never been fond of b/c of his misperceptions around Bitcoin, may be finally getting it:

So, sure: bitcoin raises all kinds of conceptual, legal, technical and philosophical questions. But it would only take one of these scenarios to drive some adoption and, very quickly, bitcoin might cease to be a sideshow. And, given that its core design goal of censorship-resistant digital cash has such disruptive potential – good and bad, this possibility alone is reason to keep an eye on it. Dismissing it entirely could be a big mistake.

http://gendal.me/2015/05/12/blockchain-is-where-banks-have-the-most-obvious-opportunity-but-you-ignore-bitcoin-at-your-peril/

cypherdoc

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Andrew Miller, good paper on Bitcoin network topology:

https://cs.umd.edu/projects/coinscope/coinscope.pdf

rocks

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Great perspective on Bitcoin's growth over the past 2 years.

http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/35pku9/i_wonder_what_would_have_happened_if_todays/

rocks

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Quote from: justusranvier on May 12, 2015, 08:47:38 AM

Quote from: leezay on May 11, 2015, 12:09:57 PM

Gold is tangible asset. Hard to convince older generation to hold bitcoin.

The need to convince the older generation about anything is highly overrated.

The people we need to worry about convincing are the people who will be producing new wealth in the future - not those who are already (for the most part) done producing.

I don't know about that. Just look at the money Soros and Buffet spend on various NGO's to "educate" us dumb plebs. Would be useful is some of that went towards reality and not Keynesian fantasy.

cypherdoc

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following script pretty well:

justusranvier

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Quote from: leezay on May 11, 2015, 12:09:57 PM

Gold is tangible asset. Hard to convince older generation to hold bitcoin.

The need to convince the older generation about anything is highly overrated.

The people we need to worry about convincing are the people who will be producing new wealth in the future - not those who are already (for the most part) done producing.

solex

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100 satoshis -> ISO code

Quote from: smooth on May 12, 2015, 01:38:26 AM

Quote from: solex on May 12, 2015, 01:32:46 AM

Quote from: smooth on May 12, 2015, 01:31:08 AM

Quote from: solex on May 12, 2015, 12:24:05 AM

Rusty Russell, the genius who is behind the implementation of the Lightning Networks.

No he's not. Proper credit for Lightning Network is Joseph Poon and Thaddeus Dryja. Rusty wrote a series of posts explaining Lightning Network

Yes. He is building the software for it, made that clearer now. I know he didn't write the paper.

Do you have a source for that? It's reasonably plausible he'd be working on something given the level of effort he put into studying it, but I haven't seen any explicit statement to that effect. I know he went to work for Blockstream, but Lightning Network is primarily a project of another Bitcoin company (Mirror).

Not to hand, it was anecdotal based on soft-fork discussions. I will amend the post until the situation is clearer. Thanks for the info.

smooth

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Quote from: solex on May 12, 2015, 01:32:46 AM

Quote from: smooth on May 12, 2015, 01:31:08 AM

Quote from: solex on May 12, 2015, 12:24:05 AM

Rusty Russell, the genius who is behind the implementation of the Lightning Networks.

No he's not. Proper credit for Lightning Network is Joseph Poon and Thaddeus Dryja. Rusty wrote a series of posts explaining Lightning Network

Yes. He is building the software for it, made that clearer now. I know he didn't write the paper.

Do you have a source for that? It's reasonably plausible he'd be working on something given the level of effort he put into studying it, but I haven't seen any explicit statement to that effect. I know he went to work for Blockstream, but Lightning Network is primarily a project of another Bitcoin company (Mirror).

solex

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100 satoshis -> ISO code

Quote from: smooth on May 12, 2015, 01:31:08 AM

Quote from: solex on May 12, 2015, 12:24:05 AM

Rusty Russell, the genius who is behind the implementation of the Lightning Networks.

No he's not. Proper credit for Lightning Network is Joseph Poon and Thaddeus Dryja. Rusty wrote a series of posts explaining Lightning Network

Yes. He is building the software for it, made that clearer now. I know he didn't write the paper.

smooth

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Quote from: solex on May 12, 2015, 12:24:05 AM

Rusty Russell, the genius who is behind the implementation of the Lightning Networks.

No he's not. Proper credit for Lightning Network is Joseph Poon and Thaddeus Dryja. Rusty wrote a series of posts explaining Lightning Network.

solex

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100 satoshis -> ISO code

Quote from: TPTB_need_war on May 11, 2015, 10:29:47 PM

Here was my comment on IBLT:

https://gist.github.com/gavinandresen/e20c3b5a1d4b97f79ac2#comment-1324639

My thought is it appears to me to be pie-in-the-sky in sense of hoping that parties will avoid the increasing probability of failure as the compression rate increases. In short, the system will need be highly centralized in order to cope with that loss of entropy.

Did you read the comment below yours? It is from Rusty Russell, a software genius who is behind parts of the Linux kernel. He and Kalle Rosenbaum exchange notes on their independently developed implementations of IBLT tested using tx recovered from the Bitcoin blockchain. It is not pie-in-the-sky. It works!
http://rustyrussell.github.io/pettycoin/2014/11/05/Playing-with-invertible-bloom-lookup-tables-and-bitcoin-transactions.html

Regarding "compression rate increase" == "system will need be highly centralized".
Successful compression rate increase is a function of the synchronization of node mempools, remember they are already all running the same software (consensus code), and receiving the same cascading p2p unconfirmed tx. They don't need to be centralized, they just need to avoid applying their own personal tx censorship rules (e.g. like Eligius who regards Counterparty tx as spam while encoding books is fine and dandy).

TPTB_need_war

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Here was my comment on IBLT:

https://gist.github.com/gavinandresen/e20c3b5a1d4b97f79ac2#comment-1324639

My thought is it appears to me to be pie-in-the-sky in sense of hoping that parties will avoid the increasing probability of failure as the compression rate increases. In short, the system will need be highly centralized in order to cope with that loss of entropy.

smooth

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Quote from: TPTB_need_war on May 11, 2015, 10:20:36 PM

smooth I am not following that discussion but what about rented hardware attacks? Doesn't that involve the BTC exchange value or does the network hashrate scaling to BTC value negate? (sorry didn't think this out)

Well if you are dead set on attacking (for non-economic reasons), you can rent hardware to attack, but it will cost you more (up to the limits on the chart with the model parameters given) than renting the hardware and using it to mine honestly. The difference between the two is what is shown in that chart.

Attacks on the coin itself (which rely on a lowered exchange rate, for example by shorting or having some kind of natural short exposure) are different from using attacks within the coin to make money.

EDIT: I guess a case worth considering is using rented hashrate by an attacker to "promote" up the chart (closer to 50% or over). Not considered by Meni's analysis. I don't know if the real world economics make that significant.

thebenjamincode

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37iGtdUJc2xXTDkw5TQZJQX1Wb98gSLYVP

i think gold will be going back up again if it falls down. just like what happened to BTC when mtgox went down

rocks

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Quote from: smooth on May 11, 2015, 10:06:26 PM

@rocks, the chart already assumes rewards of 25 BTC/block. It will, however, need to be adjusted (down) when we hit 12.5 BTC/block.

Yeah, saw that after skimming the paper this afternoon. Am curious to re-run the numbers if I have time in a bit to see how the results look with a 12.5 BTC/block reward and other future expected rewards. If I get around to that will post back.

TPTB_need_war

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smooth I am not following that discussion but what about rented hardware attacks? Doesn't that involve the BTC exchange value or does the network hashrate scaling to BTC value negate? (sorry didn't think this out)

smooth

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Quote from: cypherdoc on May 11, 2015, 01:57:41 PM

that's kind of a weird chart b/c it is denominated in BTC. even Meni says so:

These values should be taken with a grain of salt, because of the many modeling assumptions made

"value" will vary greatly depending on whether 1BTC buys you a loaf of bread vs an island.

It being denominated in BTC is not one of the modeling assumptions. That's because both the gain and loss from such an attack are measured in BTC. So it is correct to consider the numbers as BTC quantities, whatever those happen to be worth.

The modeling assumptions are primarily how much resale etc. value the attacker recovers from the unpaid purchase and how many attacks can be pulled off simultaneously. The latter is probably the riskier assumption.

@rocks, the chart already assumes rewards of 25 BTC/block. It will, however, need to be adjusted (down) when we hit 12.5 BTC/block.

TPTB_need_war

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Welcome to the NWO fascism...

Quote from: minor-transgression on May 11, 2015, 05:00:18 PM

@ORO ... 6. All your IP are belong to us ...

http://nationalcan.ning.com/video/paypal-assert-copyright-ownership-of-all-intellectual-property

And automobile companies want cars "sold" as software ...

the list just keeps getting longer :-(

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