Author

Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. - page 518. (Read 2032289 times)

legendary
Activity: 1204
Merit: 1002
Gresham's Lawyer
January 29, 2015, 09:35:48 PM
Gresham's Law is statement about the effects of legal tender laws - not a statement referring to any kind of intrinsic property of money.
Yes, though it may include the notion of an intrinsic property being in contrast with the governmentally defined value:

http://archive.lewrockwell.com/rothbard/rothbard260.html

Quote
As an outpost of Great Britain, colonial America of course used British pounds, pence, and shillings as its money. Great Britain was officially on a silver standard, with the shilling defined as equal to 86 pure Troy grains of silver, and with silver as so-defined legal tender for all debts (that is, creditors were compelled to accept silver at that rate). However, Britain also coined gold and maintained a bimetallic standard by fixing the gold guinea, weighing 129.4 grains of gold, as equal in value to a certain weight of silver. In that way, gold became, in effect, legal tender as well. Unfortunately, by establishing bimetallism, Britain became perpetually subject to the evil known as Gresham's law, which states that when government compulsorily overvalues one money and undervalues another, the undervalued money will leave the country or disappear into hoards, while the overvalued money will flood into circulation. Hence, the popular catchphrase of Gresham's Law: "Bad money drives out good." But the important point to note is that the triumph of "bad" money is the result, not of perverse free-market competition, but of government using the compulsory legal tender power to privilege one money above another.

So the notion of overvaluing and undervaluing suggests that there is some other value, (perhaps intrinsic), abstracted from and in contrast to, the value defined by a government.
legendary
Activity: 1400
Merit: 1013
January 29, 2015, 08:07:12 PM
Gresham's Law is statement about the effects of legal tender laws - not a statement referring to any kind of intrinsic property of money.
legendary
Activity: 1512
Merit: 1005
January 29, 2015, 08:00:44 PM
The blockchain is a fantastic invention, and can surely be used for other purposes. For instance settlement of stock sales. Why would that be a good idea? Listen to our friend Patrick M. Byrne in this movie, starting from 16:50. (The whole film is well worth listening to). It turns out that the system of settlements have fault tolerance, which means that the number of shares in circulation for a company is not necessarily consistent with the number of shares listed in the reports.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aGyPQ_cO6l8

I envision a block chain system, run by an association of interested parties, where each listed company and broker has a miner running, and the coins=shares are centrally issued, and the payment for the mining is just agreed upon in the association. The addresses could be just the name of the current owner of the stock. Just as in the bitcoin blockchain, it will be consistent, guaranteed by the majority of all miners, and nobody could sell a stock they didn't own, by mistake.

The big point here is: It does not have to be in the bitcoin blockchain. As long as the "coins" represent something in real life, trust is required, and that trust could easily be extended to include mining for an agreed upon reward (or the burden could be shared equally).

full member
Activity: 236
Merit: 100
January 29, 2015, 07:56:16 PM
I've heard it said both ways....good money drives out bad.  Bad money drives out good.  However you say it, it just means you're not going to spend something if you think it's going to appreciate in value.  It doesn't get much simpler than that

That doesn't work. For a transaction to occur, buyer and seller must agree on the terms. If the buyer won't spend his money because he thinks it will appreciate, then the seller won't accept money he expects to depreciate. They have to meet in the middle somewhere.

They do that with a thing called "price".
full member
Activity: 660
Merit: 101
Colletrix - Bridging the Physical and Virtual Worl
January 29, 2015, 06:46:33 PM
Wtf is this? Listen to this interview of Tim Swanson. At 53 min,  he says he talked to gmax about "Smart property" whereby mining manufacturers, with the assistance of core devs (sounds like Blockstream core devs)  would build in miner "kill switches" in the event they were found to be attacking SC's. THAT is a stupid, ridiculous, un-open source idea. Supposedly, they are keeping it hush hush.

https://epicenterbitcoin.com/
i did not watch the video, but it does not seem this could work. who would buy the zombie miners? it's not like hackers wouldn't be able to tell they are running supervised gear.

on the other hand, who knows, we seem to be listlessly driving around in death-by-remote-control machines (article from 2011, it has gotten and will get far worse):
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/10/business/10hack.html?_r=0
legendary
Activity: 2968
Merit: 1198
January 29, 2015, 05:36:37 PM
I've heard it said both ways....good money drives out bad.  Bad money drives out good.  However you say it, it just means you're not going to spend something if you think it's going to appreciate in value.  It doesn't get much simpler than that

That doesn't work. For a transaction to occur, buyer and seller must agree on the terms. If the buyer won't spend his money because he thinks it will appreciate, then the seller won't accept money he expects to depreciate. They have to meet in the middle somewhere.

legendary
Activity: 1512
Merit: 1005
January 29, 2015, 05:25:33 PM
Driven out - means driven out of circulation and into hoards.

It is only relevant for money that has the same unit.

For instance a freshly minted coin was driven out, and the old worn and clipped coins circulated.
legendary
Activity: 3122
Merit: 1538
yes
January 29, 2015, 05:09:21 PM

"Gresham's law is an economic principle that states: "When a government overvalues one type of money and undervalues another, the undervalued money will leave the country or disappear from circulation into hoards, while the overvalued money will flood into circulation."[1] It is commonly stated as: "Bad money drives out good"."

I would add that you don't even need to include the government in this definition and it still means pretty much the same thing.
[...]

I like to think that bad money would not be accepted if there is no government force. I.e., Gresham's law assumes that government forces the bad medium onto the people.
hero member
Activity: 560
Merit: 500
January 29, 2015, 02:55:42 PM
Good money drives out bad could be interpreted as: You're going to hoard the good money until you spend all the bad money therefore the good money is eventually driving the bad money out of circulation

Bad money drives out good: you're going to hoard the good money so the bad money immediately drove the good money out of circulation since you're going to spend the bad money first.

in other words: hold on to your bitcoins and spend your dollars lol
hero member
Activity: 560
Merit: 500
January 29, 2015, 02:53:19 PM
I've heard it said both ways....good money drives out bad.  Bad money drives out good.  However you say it, it just means you're not going to spend something if you think it's going to appreciate in value.  It doesn't get much simpler than that
hero member
Activity: 560
Merit: 500
January 29, 2015, 02:51:51 PM


Yes, I think the likely scenario is that, as the global slow-down continues, money will flow to the dollar first since it is perceived by many as the safest asset.

Then precious metals and housing secondly, as they will always maintain 'some' intrinsic value.  

Trust me, in a true SHTF scenario, NOBODY is going to want or care for bitcoin.  They're going to want food, shelter, clothing, and nationally recognized currency that will be accepted anywhere with historical usage that extends back thousands of years: silver and gold.

Besides the fact that I feel there is no such thing as "intrinsic" value (all values are subjective) I see the capital flowing this way:

weaker currencies --> perceived stronger currencies (U.S. Dollar) --> bitcoin

I don't see metals as useful a currency as bitcoin but they will, of course, appreciate against a collapsing dollar - just not as much as bitcoin in my opinion. Bitcoin could be the safety valve that preserves some semblance of a global economy and a somewhat civilized society since it will allow the continued trade across distance (metals not so much).



  What's that law about good money chasing out bad or something like that? I never really understood it...

Gresham's Law.  It essentially says that if you have multiple forms of money, you're going to save the form of money you think is going to appreciate and you're going to spend everything else first. Pretty much it's common sense. 

Except that's the exact opposite of Gresham's law (bad money chases out good). Between dollars and gold, which one is the "good" money?  Gold. But no one uses gold. Bad money chased out good.

Take your obfuscating word acrobatics to the circus, please.

"Gresham's law is an economic principle that states: "When a government overvalues one type of money and undervalues another, the undervalued money will leave the country or disappear from circulation into hoards, while the overvalued money will flood into circulation."[1] It is commonly stated as: "Bad money drives out good"."

I would add that you don't even need to include the government in this definition and it still means pretty much the same thing.  In summary, you hold on to that which you think will be worth more in the future and you spend that which you think might be less in the future. 
hero member
Activity: 722
Merit: 500
January 29, 2015, 02:46:41 PM
Except that's the exact opposite of Gresham's law (bad money chases out good). Between dollars and gold, which one is the "good" money?  Gold. But no one uses gold. Bad money chased out good.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greshams_law#Reverse_of_Gresham.27s_Law_.28Thiers.27_Law.29
full member
Activity: 236
Merit: 100
January 29, 2015, 02:33:29 PM


Yes, I think the likely scenario is that, as the global slow-down continues, money will flow to the dollar first since it is perceived by many as the safest asset.

Then precious metals and housing secondly, as they will always maintain 'some' intrinsic value.  

Trust me, in a true SHTF scenario, NOBODY is going to want or care for bitcoin.  They're going to want food, shelter, clothing, and nationally recognized currency that will be accepted anywhere with historical usage that extends back thousands of years: silver and gold.

Besides the fact that I feel there is no such thing as "intrinsic" value (all values are subjective) I see the capital flowing this way:

weaker currencies --> perceived stronger currencies (U.S. Dollar) --> bitcoin

I don't see metals as useful a currency as bitcoin but they will, of course, appreciate against a collapsing dollar - just not as much as bitcoin in my opinion. Bitcoin could be the safety valve that preserves some semblance of a global economy and a somewhat civilized society since it will allow the continued trade across distance (metals not so much).



  What's that law about good money chasing out bad or something like that? I never really understood it...

Gresham's Law.  It essentially says that if you have multiple forms of money, you're going to save the form of money you think is going to appreciate and you're going to spend everything else first. Pretty much it's common sense. 

Except that's the exact opposite of Gresham's law (bad money chases out good). Between dollars and gold, which one is the "good" money?  Gold. But no one uses gold. Bad money chased out good.
hero member
Activity: 560
Merit: 500
January 29, 2015, 02:23:34 PM


Yes, I think the likely scenario is that, as the global slow-down continues, money will flow to the dollar first since it is perceived by many as the safest asset.

Then precious metals and housing secondly, as they will always maintain 'some' intrinsic value.  

Trust me, in a true SHTF scenario, NOBODY is going to want or care for bitcoin.  They're going to want food, shelter, clothing, and nationally recognized currency that will be accepted anywhere with historical usage that extends back thousands of years: silver and gold.

Besides the fact that I feel there is no such thing as "intrinsic" value (all values are subjective) I see the capital flowing this way:

weaker currencies --> perceived stronger currencies (U.S. Dollar) --> bitcoin

I don't see metals as useful a currency as bitcoin but they will, of course, appreciate against a collapsing dollar - just not as much as bitcoin in my opinion. Bitcoin could be the safety valve that preserves some semblance of a global economy and a somewhat civilized society since it will allow the continued trade across distance (metals not so much).



  What's that law about good money chasing out bad or something like that? I never really understood it...

Gresham's Law.  It essentially says that if you have multiple forms of money, you're going to save the form of money you think is going to appreciate and you're going to spend everything else first. Pretty much it's common sense. 
hero member
Activity: 728
Merit: 500
January 29, 2015, 02:11:37 PM


Yes, I think the likely scenario is that, as the global slow-down continues, money will flow to the dollar first since it is perceived by many as the safest asset.

Then precious metals and housing secondly, as they will always maintain 'some' intrinsic value.  

Trust me, in a true SHTF scenario, NOBODY is going to want or care for bitcoin.  They're going to want food, shelter, clothing, and nationally recognized currency that will be accepted anywhere with historical usage that extends back thousands of years: silver and gold.

Besides the fact that I feel there is no such thing as "intrinsic" value (all values are subjective) I see the capital flowing this way:

weaker currencies --> perceived stronger currencies (U.S. Dollar) --> bitcoin

I don't see metals as useful a currency as bitcoin but they will, of course, appreciate against a collapsing dollar - just not as much as bitcoin in my opinion. Bitcoin could be the safety valve that preserves some semblance of a global economy and a somewhat civilized society since it will allow the continued trade across distance (metals not so much).



  What's that law about good money chasing out bad or something like that? I never really understood it...
legendary
Activity: 1764
Merit: 1002
January 29, 2015, 01:22:45 PM
Wtf is this? Listen to this interview of Tim Swanson. At 53 min,  he says he talked to gmax about "Smart property" whereby mining manufacturers, with the assistance of core devs (sounds like Blockstream core devs)  would build in miner "kill switches" in the event they were found to be attacking SC's. THAT is a stupid, ridiculous, un-open source idea. Supposedly, they are keeping it hush hush.

https://epicenterbitcoin.com/
hero member
Activity: 715
Merit: 500
January 29, 2015, 01:05:53 PM
Personally I think the USD and Bitcoin can thrive side by side.  I don't see the demise of Fiat necessary whatsoever for the success of BTC.  To me, it's simple, BTC makes Fiat more efficient on many levels, it's the opposite of Gold in that way.  Changetip is a one example of this.  On the flip side, it's also a great store of value which makes is much like Gold.  I can carry $1Mil in BTC with me across a border in my pocket, money that I have 100% control over.
legendary
Activity: 1162
Merit: 1010
January 29, 2015, 01:03:24 PM
There was once discussion about an exodus plan if a superior technology existed that was not fork-able.  It would maintain a centralized legacy support for cold storage. Bitcoins would be converted proportionally as a one-way transaction. While I commend altcoin developers, some of them have been abusing the community with proof of burn IPOs. Not many people can afford to just dump bitcoins for something that has no value. Yeah free market bla bla, but most of them are scams. Is anyone working on a method to clone one of these altcoins and convert bitcoin outputs to the new system? This would go a long way toward comforting folks that don't have confidence that Bitcoin can live up to its promise. Now I know this sounds like Side Chains. It is because I believe this is the natural consequence of such an experiment. There can be only one.

It was discussed somewhat extensively here, including some details about how claims would be represented and processed: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/spin-offs-bootstrap-an-altcoin-with-a-btc-blockchain-based-initial-distribution-563972

The last post on that thread reports someone who had implemented it as a proof of concept.

Thanks for reference to Joseph Krug's & Jack Peterson's proof-of-concept of the spinoff / snapshot idea.  They've made a fair bit of progress! (Although I wish they had used your Merkle-branch claim proof idea however to reduce the size of the genesis block).

http://augur.link/sidecoin.pdf

I had somewhat lost interest in spinoffs as a practical technology with the excitement around sidechains.  But perhaps there's still value in them.  Haha I'd really love to see Aethereum become a reality (https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/rfc-aethereum-a-turing-complete-coin-distributed-as-per-bitcoins-blockchain-563925).
legendary
Activity: 1764
Merit: 1002
January 29, 2015, 11:47:41 AM

the sweet smell of debt deflation is upon us.  and gold is about to be taken out for the next whuppin.
Jump to: