Author

Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. - page 723. (Read 2032266 times)

legendary
Activity: 1764
Merit: 1002
November 13, 2014, 10:04:13 AM
Of course but no matter the wants or need of people, open source will allow for whatever option that fills that niche in the most legitimate way to win over the userbase in the long run.

I understand your concerns but at the end of the day my bet is the value created will far outweight the negatives.

i just want to make another point here.  the only part of the SC process that we should expect to be OS is the 2wp or SPVproof itself.  OS is not required for the way the SC decides to run itself which is dependent on its developer.  for me, thinking of these for profit SC companies as circles helps envision a self encapsulated, potentially closed opaque system within which rides an unknown blockchain ledger to which your valuable BTC will be transferred at your own risk.
legendary
Activity: 1764
Merit: 1002
November 13, 2014, 09:46:28 AM
I watched that twitter dialog.  They sure got grumpy quickly.
Only two chains are required.  It can be more chains, and more transactions but the minimum would be:

1) a transaction on the MC locking the assets
2) a transaction on the SC whose inputs contain a cryptographic proof that the lock was done correctly (and thereby creating the SC asset).

So, BTC--->scBTC --->CC is the correct way to think about it as we have consistently been doing here for the last 200 pages?

No, not in the way you suggest where everyone on a sidechain could either hold scBTC or CC.
[/quote]

In our long used sequence as above, perhaps I should have clarified that the scBTC that emerges from the peg can ride the TC SC for as long as it wants before converting in some unknown ratio to CC? That makes it conceptually correct, right?  
hero member
Activity: 644
Merit: 504
Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks
November 13, 2014, 09:21:58 AM
I watched that twitter dialog.  They sure got grumpy quickly.
Only two chains are required.  It can be more chains, and more transactions but the minimum would be:

1) a transaction on the MC locking the assets
2) a transaction on the SC whose inputs contain a cryptographic proof that the lock was done correctly (and thereby creating the SC asset).

So, BTC--->scBTC --->CC is the correct way to think about it as we have consistently been doing here for the last 200 pages?
[/quote]

No, not in the way you suggest where everyone on a sidechain could either hold scBTC or CC.
legendary
Activity: 1204
Merit: 1002
Gresham's Lawyer
November 13, 2014, 08:13:52 AM
in my Twitter conversation with @Truthcoin today, it's so clear that all he wants to do is tap into "mobile Bitcoin" for the value sapping.  he doesn't care that the BTC converted to Cashcoin or whatever shitcoin is involved with Truthcoin is put at risk.  he sees SC's as a way to exploit Bitcoin.

i suggest every other altcoin will attempt the same bolt on strategy.

I also have the feeling he is using the peg as a "risk-adverse" aspect when in fact he has no plan to peg 1:1. Oh well... fools.. money..parted


I don't get the 1:1 thing.  It doesn't really matter what the ratio is, so long as it is a ratio that is communicated clearly and is not alterable, yes?
It could be 1:100, 1:2, or 10:1, and when you return to the MC it reverses.

don't know but i suppose he could change it and trap ppl inside.

the other thing he was making a big deal about is that he insists the transfer goes like this  BTC-->CC as opposed to BTC-->scBTC-->CC.  as if that makes a difference  Roll Eyes  but from a technical standpoint, i think it was notme who said there had to be essentially 2 tx's to accomplish the transformation to a new coin as in the latter example.  anyone know?

and as far as TC is concerned, it's not so much about the it being an altcoin, it's about the fact that most of the assets offered are speculative and subject to losses.
I watched that twitter dialog.  They sure got grumpy quickly.
Only two chains are required.  It can be more chains, and more transactions but the minimum would be:

1) a transaction on the MC locking the assets
2) a transaction on the SC whose inputs contain a cryptographic proof that the lock was done correctly (and thereby creating the SC asset).

So, BTC--->scBTC --->CC is the correct way to think about it as we have consistently been doing here for the last 200 pages?

That nomenclature is going to be new to them unless they read it here like you suggested to them, so their confusion is understandable.  
They are likely just thinking of it in terms of just the Bitcoin block chain and the Truthcoin block chain with the convertible asset created by the locking of the bitcoin being the CC.
The nomenclature we are using here is a bit unusual.  (we use MC for main chain, block stream uses "parent chain" and "child chain" or "sidechain").

The blockstream paper considers the sidechain as "also Bitcoin" which seems a bit disingenuous to me.  

Quote from: blockstream paper
Generally we can think of the parent chain as being Bitcoin and the sidechain as one of many other blockchains. Of course, sidechain coins could be transferred between sidechains, not just to and from Bitcoin; however, since any coin originally moved from Bitcoin could be moved back, it would nonetheless remain a bitcoin.
I don't favor much of the language used in their paper.  ("peg" being another example, but that is an old battle lost long ago)

This 1:1 peg being used to mean "a static conversion rate at any ratio" also seems bizarre in that it includes a 1:10 with 10:1 return rate?  
legendary
Activity: 1764
Merit: 1002
November 13, 2014, 06:12:18 AM
in my Twitter conversation with @Truthcoin today, it's so clear that all he wants to do is tap into "mobile Bitcoin" for the value sapping.  he doesn't care that the BTC converted to Cashcoin or whatever shitcoin is involved with Truthcoin is put at risk.  he sees SC's as a way to exploit Bitcoin.

i suggest every other altcoin will attempt the same bolt on strategy.

I also have the feeling he is using the peg as a "risk-adverse" aspect when in fact he has no plan to peg 1:1. Oh well... fools.. money..parted


I don't get the 1:1 thing.  It doesn't really matter what the ratio is, so long as it is a ratio that is communicated clearly and is not alterable, yes?
It could be 1:100, 1:2, or 10:1, and when you return to the MC it reverses.

don't know but i suppose he could change it and trap ppl inside.

the other thing he was making a big deal about is that he insists the transfer goes like this  BTC-->CC as opposed to BTC-->scBTC-->CC.  as if that makes a difference  Roll Eyes  but from a technical standpoint, i think it was notme who said there had to be essentially 2 tx's to accomplish the transformation to a new coin as in the latter example.  anyone know?

and as far as TC is concerned, it's not so much about the it being an altcoin, it's about the fact that most of the assets offered are speculative and subject to losses.
I watched that twitter dialog.  They sure got grumpy quickly.
Only two chains are required.  It can be more chains, and more transactions but the minimum would be:

1) a transaction on the MC locking the assets
2) a transaction on the SC whose inputs contain a cryptographic proof that the lock was done correctly (and thereby creating the SC asset).

So, BTC--->scBTC --->CC is the correct way to think about it as we have consistently been doing here for the last 200 pages?
legendary
Activity: 1260
Merit: 1008
November 13, 2014, 03:28:37 AM


I don't get the 1:1 thing.  It doesn't really matter what the ratio is, so long as it is a ratio that is communicated clearly and is not alterable, yes?

Yes.

Most people use 1:1 ratio whe explaining sc just for the simplicity of it.
1:1 means you get the same amount of bitcoins out as you put in for the same amount of SC. It means the SC doesn't inflate in relation BTC.

Could you please explain to me why a fixed/time invariant 1:n ratio should inflate the native sidechain coin(1)? (serious question)

(1) I'm taking into consideration only sidechain where there's no other way to "introduce" sc coins rather than  2wp or atomic swaps (aka no coin rewards for new mined block only txs fee)
donator
Activity: 1736
Merit: 1014
Let's talk governance, lipstick, and pigs.
November 13, 2014, 02:40:32 AM


I don't get the 1:1 thing.  It doesn't really matter what the ratio is, so long as it is a ratio that is communicated clearly and is not alterable, yes?

Yes.

Most people use 1:1 ratio whe explaining sc just for the simplicity of it.
1:1 means you get the same amount of bitcoins out as you put in for the same amount of SC. It means the SC doesn't inflate in relation BTC.
legendary
Activity: 1260
Merit: 1008
November 13, 2014, 02:23:40 AM


I don't get the 1:1 thing.  It doesn't really matter what the ratio is, so long as it is a ratio that is communicated clearly and is not alterable, yes?

Yes.

Most people use 1:1 ratio whe explaining sc just for the simplicity of it.
hero member
Activity: 924
Merit: 1000
November 13, 2014, 02:21:46 AM
And again gold is going down suffering from the strong us dollar, while Bitcoin shows it doesn't care at all and just wants to go its way. The next year will be very interesting, and I'm confident I did a good thing by still not buying gold. Smiley
legendary
Activity: 1260
Merit: 1008
November 13, 2014, 02:08:23 AM
How much did David Chaum have solved at Digicash/eCash?

Some of the notes on the relevant wikipedia pages suggest he had double-spending solved:

Quote
...
Depending on the payment transactions, one distinguishes between on-line and off-line electronic cash: If the payee has to contact a third party (e.g., the bank or the credit-card company acting as an acquirer) before accepting a payment, the system is called an on-line system.[2] In 1990, Chaum together with Naor proposed the first off-line e-cash system, which was also based on blind signatures.[3]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecash


Quote
In 1988, he extended this idea (with Amos Fiat and Moni Naor) to prevent double-spending.[13]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Chaum


Anyone have any more info on this? Was eCash's remaining problem merely initial-coin distribution, or was BGP actually not (practically) 'solved' despite the above?

I moved the question and my comments on it into another thread in dev/tech section https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.9526439 as its not really to do with speculation nor gold, though an interesting question!

Adam


so you've been snooping on our sidechains debate all along heh  Cheesy

Adam already posted here on nov the 1st:

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.9405925

he had tried to clarify some aspect of the sidechains concept (2wp, atomic swaps, etc. etc). But maybe you and cypher were to busy arguing about sc effect on bitcoin economy :-)
legendary
Activity: 1204
Merit: 1002
Gresham's Lawyer
November 13, 2014, 02:01:30 AM
I don't get the 1:1 thing.  It doesn't really matter what the ratio is, so long as it is a ratio that is communicated clearly and is not alterable, yes?
It could be 1:100, 1:2, or 10:1, and when you return to the MC it reverses.

don't know but i suppose he could change it and trap ppl inside.

Oh yes, (developer + miner) integrity is needed.
And there are a bajillion possible scams with new block chains, we've seen a lot of those in alt-land, but the ratio is immaterial to that.

So... no reason it can't be 1BTC:100scBTC on the way in and 100scBTC:1BTC on the return.
legendary
Activity: 1204
Merit: 1002
Gresham's Lawyer
November 13, 2014, 01:52:35 AM
in my Twitter conversation with @Truthcoin today, it's so clear that all he wants to do is tap into "mobile Bitcoin" for the value sapping.  he doesn't care that the BTC converted to Cashcoin or whatever shitcoin is involved with Truthcoin is put at risk.  he sees SC's as a way to exploit Bitcoin.

i suggest every other altcoin will attempt the same bolt on strategy.

I also have the feeling he is using the peg as a "risk-adverse" aspect when in fact he has no plan to peg 1:1. Oh well... fools.. money..parted


I don't get the 1:1 thing.  It doesn't really matter what the ratio is, so long as it is a ratio that is communicated clearly and is not alterable, yes?
It could be 1:100, 1:2, or 10:1, and when you return to the MC it reverses.

don't know but i suppose he could change it and trap ppl inside.

the other thing he was making a big deal about is that he insists the transfer goes like this  BTC-->CC as opposed to BTC-->scBTC-->CC.  as if that makes a difference  Roll Eyes  but from a technical standpoint, i think it was notme who said there had to be essentially 2 tx's to accomplish the transformation to a new coin as in the latter example.  anyone know?

and as far as TC is concerned, it's not so much about the it being an altcoin, it's about the fact that most of the assets offered are speculative and subject to losses.
I watched that twitter dialog.  They sure got grumpy quickly.
Only two chains are required.  It can be more chains, and more transactions but the minimum would be:

1) a transaction on the MC locking the assets
2) a transaction on the SC whose inputs contain a cryptographic proof that the lock was done correctly (and thereby creating the SC asset).
legendary
Activity: 1764
Merit: 1002
November 13, 2014, 12:18:06 AM
in my Twitter conversation with @Truthcoin today, it's so clear that all he wants to do is tap into "mobile Bitcoin" for the value sapping.  he doesn't care that the BTC converted to Cashcoin or whatever shitcoin is involved with Truthcoin is put at risk.  he sees SC's as a way to exploit Bitcoin.

i suggest every other altcoin will attempt the same bolt on strategy.

I also have the feeling he is using the peg as a "risk-adverse" aspect when in fact he has no plan to peg 1:1. Oh well... fools.. money..parted


I don't get the 1:1 thing.  It doesn't really matter what the ratio is, so long as it is a ratio that is communicated clearly and is not alterable, yes?
It could be 1:100, 1:2, or 10:1, and when you return to the MC it reverses.

don't know but i suppose he could change it and trap ppl inside.

the other thing he was making a big deal about is that he insists the transfer goes like this  BTC-->CC as opposed to BTC-->scBTC-->CC.  as if that makes a difference  Roll Eyes  but from a technical standpoint, i think it was notme who said there had to be essentially 2 tx's to accomplish the transformation to a new coin as in the latter example.  anyone know?

and as far as TC is concerned, it's not so much about the it being an altcoin, it's about the fact that most of the assets offered are speculative and subject to losses.
legendary
Activity: 1204
Merit: 1002
Gresham's Lawyer
November 13, 2014, 12:07:02 AM
in my Twitter conversation with @Truthcoin today, it's so clear that all he wants to do is tap into "mobile Bitcoin" for the value sapping.  he doesn't care that the BTC converted to Cashcoin or whatever shitcoin is involved with Truthcoin is put at risk.  he sees SC's as a way to exploit Bitcoin.

i suggest every other altcoin will attempt the same bolt on strategy.

I also have the feeling he is using the peg as a "risk-adverse" aspect when in fact he has no plan to peg 1:1. Oh well... fools.. money..parted


I don't get the 1:1 thing.  It doesn't really matter what the ratio is, so long as it is a ratio that is communicated clearly and is not alterable, yes?
It could be 1:100, 1:2, or 10:1, and when you return to the MC it reverses.
legendary
Activity: 1764
Merit: 1002
November 12, 2014, 11:55:59 PM
in my Twitter conversation with @Truthcoin today, it's so clear that all he wants to do is tap into "mobile Bitcoin" for the value sapping.  he doesn't care that the BTC converted to Cashcoin or whatever shitcoin is involved with Truthcoin is put at risk.  he sees SC's as a way to exploit Bitcoin.

i suggest every other altcoin will attempt the same bolt on strategy.

I also have the feeling he is using the peg as a "risk-adverse" aspect when in fact he has no plan to peg 1:1. Oh well... fools.. money..parted


as contentious as our debates got, you have helped me crystalize my understanding of how SC's are going to play out.  i totally agree that the best use of SC's for Bitcoin are as development tools for your "utility" chains as you call them.  the only problem with that is they will only be applied and developed for those specific uses that help Bitcoin as Money.  and as you have said, this will probably only include those related to fast tx and anonymity and those will be the only SC's that garner BTC use and MM.  but that is very limited and highly focused.  they will be devved out of the public good as that will increase Bitcoin value even while not paying devs directly.

but that won't stop all the thousands, if not billions, of "companies" that will bolt onto the MC via the 2wp in an attempt to suck out BTC value.  i no longer conceptualize SC's as blockchains or ledgers running parallel alongside Bitcoin's blockchain.  i think of them as circles (for profit companies) with small unique ledgers within them that will have just as many different rules and manipulations that go on in fiat companies.  think of the TC diagram.  and they all will advertise with over-the-top claims to fame just like TC.  whether or not BTC holders can resist speculating in these companies should require exceptional diligence but i don't for a minute believe ppl will be able to resist.

in that sense i still don't think SC's are a good idea in that those highly focused utilities should be able to be developed on MC.

I think what you tend to forget is open source democratizes that process and bad actors will get weeded out.


that's quite possible but you yourself said the current altcoin problem is getting worse (?)  i think it's slowly getting better but if we go with your opinion then its quite clear that bad actors aren't getting weeded out.  as Melbustus quoted before, Poelstra and all of us have been more than surprised.
Quote

Can you present an example of such companies that will attach to the mainchain and how they would go about devaluing the units locked into their sidechain?

i think the #'s and types of these for profit are only limited by your imagination.  as long as there are dishonest ppl in the world there will be companies that will attempt to attract Bitcoiners.  i think ALL the current altcoins will transform themselves into SC's and play the "decentralized exchange" card and the "Bitshares, CP, Ethereum all wrapped into one" card.  or "Bitcoin 2.0-Sidechain Enabled".
Quote

I'm sorry but TC is a pathetic example and an obvious scam that will attract so much suckers before it gets exposed.

ordinary follow on adopters of Bitcoin and even current Bitcoiners love to speculate.  TC/SC Enabled Prediction Markets actually sound pretty good!  i might even want to try it out.  even if it tries a little inflation of Cashcoin or whatnot, if it enables features that can't be found in Bitcoin proper, then it will attract Bitcoiners who aren't too bothered with that.  

ppl think differently and have different opinions.  i think it's important we recognize and accept this.

Of course but no matter the wants or need of people, open source will allow for whatever option that fills that niche in the most legitimate way to win over the userbase in the long run.

I understand your concerns but at the end of the day my bet is the value created will far outweight the negatives.

and therein lies the problem.  what is the definition of "legitimate"?  this is the same question i asked 50 pgs back, what is the "truth"?

as i've grown older, i've realized it's simply a matter of "opinion".  sad but true.  look at sad Obama.  he says "are you with us or against us?"  as if that the answer to that question is a legitimate measure of one's loyalty dedication to freedom.  i hope you get what i mean.

it's quite possible you end up right as it's open source.  we'll just have to agree to disagree.
hero member
Activity: 644
Merit: 504
Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks
November 12, 2014, 11:46:54 PM
in my Twitter conversation with @Truthcoin today, it's so clear that all he wants to do is tap into "mobile Bitcoin" for the value sapping.  he doesn't care that the BTC converted to Cashcoin or whatever shitcoin is involved with Truthcoin is put at risk.  he sees SC's as a way to exploit Bitcoin.

i suggest every other altcoin will attempt the same bolt on strategy.

I also have the feeling he is using the peg as a "risk-adverse" aspect when in fact he has no plan to peg 1:1. Oh well... fools.. money..parted


as contentious as our debates got, you have helped me crystalize my understanding of how SC's are going to play out.  i totally agree that the best use of SC's for Bitcoin are as development tools for your "utility" chains as you call them.  the only problem with that is they will only be applied and developed for those specific uses that help Bitcoin as Money.  and as you have said, this will probably only include those related to fast tx and anonymity and those will be the only SC's that garner BTC use and MM.  but that is very limited and highly focused.  they will be devved out of the public good as that will increase Bitcoin value even while not paying devs directly.

but that won't stop all the thousands, if not billions, of "companies" that will bolt onto the MC via the 2wp in an attempt to suck out BTC value.  i no longer conceptualize SC's as blockchains or ledgers running parallel alongside Bitcoin's blockchain.  i think of them as circles (for profit companies) with small unique ledgers within them that will have just as many different rules and manipulations that go on in fiat companies.  think of the TC diagram.  and they all will advertise with over-the-top claims to fame just like TC.  whether or not BTC holders can resist speculating in these companies should require exceptional diligence but i don't for a minute believe ppl will be able to resist.

in that sense i still don't think SC's are a good idea in that those highly focused utilities should be able to be developed on MC.

I think what you tend to forget is open source democratizes that process and bad actors will get weeded out.


that's quite possible but you yourself said the current altcoin problem is getting worse (?)  i think it's slowly getting better but if we go with your opinion then its quite clear that bad actors aren't getting weeded out.  as Melbustus quoted before, Poelstra and all of us have been more than surprised.
Quote

Can you present an example of such companies that will attach to the mainchain and how they would go about devaluing the units locked into their sidechain?

i think the #'s and types of these for profit are only limited by your imagination.  as long as there are dishonest ppl in the world there will be companies that will attempt to attract Bitcoiners.  i think ALL the current altcoins will transform themselves into SC's and play the "decentralized exchange" card and the "Bitshares, CP, Ethereum all wrapped into one" card.  or "Bitcoin 2.0-Sidechain Enabled".
Quote

I'm sorry but TC is a pathetic example and an obvious scam that will attract so much suckers before it gets exposed.

ordinary follow on adopters of Bitcoin and even current Bitcoiners love to speculate.  TC/SC Enabled Prediction Markets actually sound pretty good!  i might even want to try it out.  even if it tries a little inflation of Cashcoin or whatnot, if it enables features that can't be found in Bitcoin proper, then it will attract Bitcoiners who aren't too bothered with that.  

ppl think differently and have different opinions.  i think it's important we recognize and accept this.

Of course but no matter the wants or need of people, open source will allow for whatever option that fills that niche in the most legitimate way to win over the userbase in the long run.

I understand your concerns but at the end of the day my bet is the value created will far outweight the negatives.
legendary
Activity: 1764
Merit: 1002
November 12, 2014, 11:38:28 PM
in my Twitter conversation with @Truthcoin today, it's so clear that all he wants to do is tap into "mobile Bitcoin" for the value sapping.  he doesn't care that the BTC converted to Cashcoin or whatever shitcoin is involved with Truthcoin is put at risk.  he sees SC's as a way to exploit Bitcoin.

i suggest every other altcoin will attempt the same bolt on strategy.

I also have the feeling he is using the peg as a "risk-adverse" aspect when in fact he has no plan to peg 1:1. Oh well... fools.. money..parted


as contentious as our debates got, you have helped me crystalize my understanding of how SC's are going to play out.  i totally agree that the best use of SC's for Bitcoin are as development tools for your "utility" chains as you call them.  the only problem with that is they will only be applied and developed for those specific uses that help Bitcoin as Money.  and as you have said, this will probably only include those related to fast tx and anonymity and those will be the only SC's that garner BTC use and MM.  but that is very limited and highly focused.  they will be devved out of the public good as that will increase Bitcoin value even while not paying devs directly.

but that won't stop all the thousands, if not billions, of "companies" that will bolt onto the MC via the 2wp in an attempt to suck out BTC value.  i no longer conceptualize SC's as blockchains or ledgers running parallel alongside Bitcoin's blockchain.  i think of them as circles (for profit companies) with small unique ledgers within them that will have just as many different rules and manipulations that go on in fiat companies.  think of the TC diagram.  and they all will advertise with over-the-top claims to fame just like TC.  whether or not BTC holders can resist speculating in these companies should require exceptional diligence but i don't for a minute believe ppl will be able to resist.

in that sense i still don't think SC's are a good idea in that those highly focused utilities should be able to be developed on MC.

I think what you tend to forget is open source democratizes that process and bad actors will get weeded out.

that's quite possible but you yourself said the current altcoin problem is getting worse (?)  i think it's slowly getting better but if we go with your opinion then its quite clear that bad actors aren't getting weeded out.  as Melbustus quoted before, Poelstra and all of us have been more than surprised.
Quote

Can you present an example of such companies that will attach to the mainchain and how they would go about devaluing the units locked into their sidechain?

i think the #'s and types of these for profit are only limited by your imagination.  as long as there are dishonest ppl in the world there will be companies that will attempt to attract Bitcoiners.  i think ALL the current altcoins will transform themselves into SC's and play the "decentralized exchange" card and the "Bitshares, CP, Ethereum all wrapped into one" card.  or "Bitcoin 2.0-Sidechain Enabled".
Quote

I'm sorry but TC is a pathetic example and an obvious scam that will attract so much suckers before it gets exposed.

ordinary follow on adopters of Bitcoin and even current Bitcoiners love to speculate.  TC/SC Enabled Prediction Markets actually sound pretty good!  i might even want to try it out.  even if it tries a little inflation of Cashcoin or whatnot, if it enables features that can't be found in Bitcoin proper, then it will attract Bitcoiners who aren't too bothered with that. 

ppl think differently and have different opinions.  i think it's important we recognize and accept this.
legendary
Activity: 1204
Merit: 1002
Gresham's Lawyer
November 12, 2014, 11:28:06 PM
The rising price hasn't lifted my spirits much at all.
Still reeling from this bad news.  (Bad for gold, bad for Bitcoin)
http://news.goldseek.com/GATA/1415649749.php
...
http://www.gata.org/files/VonNotHausOrder-Nov-10-2014.pdf

In which Judge Voorhees writes about my friend Bernard von NotHaus, one of the inspirations for Satoshi...
A quote from the previous horrible case Gellman v US:

Quote
"The United States has the sole power to coin money under the Constitution, and if anyone, individual or
State, assumes to supplant the medium of exchange adopted by our Government,
or assumes to compete with the United States Government in this regard, a
violation of these statutes would follow. Undoubtedly, no one can interfere with
the monopoly which this Government has obtained by reason of the
Constitutional provisions without running afoul of these statutes"
...
Whether the rationale
set forth in Gellman is adopted or not, the Court finds that under the construction of Section 486
applied here, contemplating that if a coin is intended for use as current money then there is
necessarily a deceptive quality about its design, Defendant’s conviction on Count Three must be
upheld.
For the reasons set forth herein, the undersigned is of the opinion, and this Court so finds
as a matter of law, that Congress indeed possesses the power to criminalize an individual’s
minting of coinage, whether in resemblance of U.S. coins or of original design, that is intended
for use as current money.

This... in contrast to several state's "lawful money" decisions (Calif), and even precious metal as Legal Tender laws (Utah)


That's a ridiculous interpretation of Article I (am I missing some other constitutional commentary on currency issuance?). Seems a very unlikely attack vector against bitcoin unless additional explicit legislation is passed (and it would have to somehow deal only with bitcoin et al, lest they set precedent that any Chuck E Cheese franchise owner is running an illegal currency scheme).

Believe it or not, this was from the court's decision.  US Federal court.
I'm flabbergasted.
This is a political prosecution.  There were no damages.
No one lost money, no one was cheated, there was no ponzi scheme, or money laundering or any of that.
In December he may become the first political prisoner in the USA for an alternative currency and questioning the Fed.
A warehouse full of gold and silver belonging to the warehouse receipt bearers was seized by the Feds.  The accounting was perfect, everything was there just as it was claimed to be.

He's facing 22 years in federal prison, and is in his 70s.
A brilliant man, he should be a national treasure, not a prisoner.  It just doesn't make sense.


The USA is not the US Dollar, just as no country is its currency.  This is just wrong.
hero member
Activity: 644
Merit: 504
Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks
November 12, 2014, 11:11:48 PM
in my Twitter conversation with @Truthcoin today, it's so clear that all he wants to do is tap into "mobile Bitcoin" for the value sapping.  he doesn't care that the BTC converted to Cashcoin or whatever shitcoin is involved with Truthcoin is put at risk.  he sees SC's as a way to exploit Bitcoin.

i suggest every other altcoin will attempt the same bolt on strategy.

I also have the feeling he is using the peg as a "risk-adverse" aspect when in fact he has no plan to peg 1:1. Oh well... fools.. money..parted


as contentious as our debates got, you have helped me crystalize my understanding of how SC's are going to play out.  i totally agree that the best use of SC's for Bitcoin are as development tools for your "utility" chains as you call them.  the only problem with that is they will only be applied and developed for those specific uses that help Bitcoin as Money.  and as you have said, this will probably only include those related to fast tx and anonymity and those will be the only SC's that garner BTC use and MM.  but that is very limited and highly focused.  they will be devved out of the public good as that will increase Bitcoin value even while not paying devs directly.

but that won't stop all the thousands, if not billions, of "companies" that will bolt onto the MC via the 2wp in an attempt to suck out BTC value.  i no longer conceptualize SC's as blockchains or ledgers running parallel alongside Bitcoin's blockchain.  i think of them as circles (for profit companies) with small unique ledgers within them that will have just as many different rules and manipulations that go on in fiat companies.  think of the TC diagram.  and they all will advertise with over-the-top claims to fame just like TC.  whether or not BTC holders can resist speculating in these companies should require exceptional diligence but i don't for a minute believe ppl will be able to resist.

in that sense i still don't think SC's are a good idea in that those highly focused utilities should be able to be developed on MC.

I think what you tend to forget is open source democratizes that process and bad actors will get weeded out.

Can you present an example of such companies that will attach to the mainchain and how they would go about devaluing the units locked into their sidechain?

I'm sorry but TC is a pathetic example and an obvious scam that will attract so much suckers before it gets exposed.
legendary
Activity: 1764
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November 12, 2014, 11:09:02 PM
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yeehaw
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